Prospect Info: 2022 8OA, Marco Kasper

[Retire91]

I think one has to account for draper being drafted into a mismanaged franchise and then being traded to a team that had Yzerman Fedorov, Primeau, Larionov then Datsyuk Zetterberg down the middle

As a center the only way he was going to make the team was as a grinder. On a team that didn't have a dynasty roster he could have put up somewhere between Jere Lehtinen / Mike Peca type numbers as a second or third line center. He won 4 cups, was .333 points per game and barely took penalties considering the role he filled. 24 playoff goals a 20 goal and a 40 points season as a career grinder.

I mean if we are talking a redraft are people taking one of Trent Klatt, Greg Johnson, Patrice Brisebois, Rob Zamuner ahead of him?

 

[Shaman464]

At 8 OA, i'd happy to get a future Selke winner who plays 1137 regular season & 220 playoff games in Detroit.

Looking back the classic '89 draft where was picked, he'd be at least 15 OA pick in re-draft.
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Top-5 is pretty clear and i'd add Konstantinov there to make it top-6. But who would actually take the likes of Barnes, Sillinger, Audette, Drake, Green, Brisebois, Johnson or even Reichel before Draper? So after all Draper could be 8/9 OA in '89 re-draft.

Foote would be way over Draper who is cut off this list, there are a couple other defenders and Kolzig would be top 15. And Danny Bylsma would have been 1OA.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I think one has to account for draper being drafted into a mismanaged franchise and then being traded to a team that had Yzerman Fedorov, Primeau, Larionov then Datsyuk Zetterberg down the middle

As a center the only way he was going to make the team was as a grinder. On a team that didn't have a dynasty roster he could have put up somewhere between Jere Lehtinen / Mike Peca type numbers as a second or third line center. He won 4 cups, was .333 points per game and barely took penalties considering the role he filled. 24 playoff goals a 20 goal and a 40 points season as a career grinder.

I mean if we are talking a redraft are people taking one of Trent Klatt, Greg Johnson, Patrice Brisebois, Rob Zamuner ahead of him?

You remember Draper as having better hands than I do. I remember him sending the crest seeking missiles on breakaways way more than Helm.

 

[Rolo Tomassi]

You remember Draper as having better hands than I do. I remember him sending the crest seeking missiles on breakaways way more than Helm.

My brothers, friends, and I all had a joke that the organ player better duck whenever Draper got a breakaway. It was a little hat tip to Slap Shot.

We loved Drapes but man were his breakaways sometimes maddening. The good old days…

 

[Retire91]

You remember Draper as having better hands than I do. I remember him sending the crest seeking missiles on breakaways way more than Helm.

hahaha hands of stone Helm man if that guy could shoot he'd be a 40 goal scorer

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

My brothers, friends, and I all had a joke that the organ player better duck whenever Draper got a breakaway. It was a little hat tip to Slap Shot.

We loved Drapes but man were his breakaways sometimes maddening. The good old days…

I loved Draper and he was the heart of that grind line, but I'll be heartbroken if Kasper only has hands as good as Drapes. I've seen WAY better playmaking and stickhandling from that kid, and he added a mid range game down in Grand Rapids that Kasper didn't show in Sweden.

 

[Rolo Tomassi]

I loved Draper and he was the heart of that grind line, but I'll be heartbroken if Kasper only has hands as good as Drapes. I've seen WAY better playmaking and stickhandling from that kid, and he added a mid range game down in Grand Rapids that Kasper didn't show in Sweden.

At first, I was a little concerned about his low numbers this past season. In a vacuum, they dont look great, but when you look at what took place (switching leagues and countries at 19, having a major injury in your first game in the show, missing your whole off season, which is HUGE at that age, etc.), you can see the major progress he was making as the season went on and into the AHL playoffs. By all accounts, he was a fairly high-impact player for the Griffs. I really hope he turns into a tough SOB with skills. I have high hopes.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

At first, I was a little concerned about his low numbers this past season. In a vacuum, they dont look great, but when you look at what took place (switching leagues and countries at 19, having a major injury in your first game in the show, missing your whole off season, which is HUGE at that age, etc.), you can see the major progress he was making as the season went on and into the AHL playoffs. By all accounts, he was a fairly high-impact player for the Griffs. I really hope he turns into a tough SOB with skills. I have high hopes.

This is what I tell everyone…

THOSE ARE NOT LOW NUMBERS IN THE AHL.

He was 4th on the team. And look at how many point per game or 20 goal guys there were in the A. It’s stupid low. Just imagine the DPE where every team is the 2003 Nashville predators.

 

[Gniwder]

This is what I tell everyone…

THOSE ARE NOT LOW NUMBERS IN THE AHL.

He was 4th on the team. And look at how many point per game or 20 goal guys there were in the A. It’s stupid low. Just imagine the DPE where every team is the 2003 Nashville predators.

160th in the league. That is low and disappointing for a top 10 pick.

TheAHL.com | The American Hockey League

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Point per game prospects like Stankoven get promoted to the NHL. That's why there aren't a lot. If Marco wants to play in the NHL, he has to do the same.

 

[ShanahanMan]

Boy the excuses for Kasper’s low production are really piling on fast.

 

[Henkka]

Point per game prospects like Stankoven get promoted to the NHL. That's why there aren't a lot. If Marco wants to play in the NHL, he has to do the same.

Berggren did put over a point-per-game on the table. Now he will be at NHL.

Kasper still has time.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Point per game prospects like Stankoven get promoted to the NHL. That's why there aren't a lot. If Marco wants to play in the NHL, he has to do the same.

Stankoven’s a year older and a 5’7 winger. Kasper was 4th in points among U20 players and I’m not sure any of the others (maybe Kulich/Wright?) was a full time center with the type of defensive game Kasper has.

It’s very obvious which of you actually watch the AHL.

 

[Gniwder]

Stankoven’s a year older and a 5’7 winger. Kasper was 4th in points among U20 players and I’m not sure any of the others (maybe Kulich/Wright?) was a full time center with the type of defensive game Kasper has.

It’s very obvious which of you actually watch the AHL.

Every argument is a strawman here isn't it? I was explaining why there aren't point per game prospects in the AHL, it's because they get promoted. Kids like Bedard and Cooley don't even spend any time in the AHL. Does it make you happier now that I picked centers?

Kasper's spending at least another half a season in the AHL. That much I can pretty much guarantee.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Every argument is a strawman here isn't it? I was explaining why there aren't point per game prospects in the AHL, it's because they get promoted. Kids like Bedard and Cooley don't even spend any time in the AHL. Does it make you happier now that I picked centers?

Kasper's spending at least another half a season in the AHL. That much I can pretty much guarantee.

You also said his production was "low and disappointing" because he was 160th in AHL scoring. I explained why in the context of his actual peers his production was probably decent at worst.

Predicting more AHL time is easy considering the NHL roster construction. That's almost a completely different discussion than one that focuses on the actual merits of the prospect. Whether or not Kasper starts in the NHL or AHL may not be the huge indicator of where he's at as a prospect as much as it says where the team is at and their philosophy about prospect development. Teams that want to be good almost never play U20 or even U21 players full-time.
For example; last season the only U21 player who played the full year on a playoff team was Johnston in Dallas.

 

[Henkka]

You remember Draper as having better hands than I do. I remember him sending the crest seeking missiles on breakaways way more than Helm.

This is funny comparison.

Kris Draper 1157 career games, 161 goals = 11.4 goals per 82 games
Darren Helm, 823 career games, 119 goals = 11.8 goals per 82 games.

Draper retiring at Helm's age, 950 career games, 140 goals = 12.2 goals per 82 games.

Kris Draper 1157 career games, 364 points = 25.8 points per 82 games
Darren Helm, 823 career games, 266 points = 26.5 points per 82 games.

Draper retiring at Helm's age, 950 career games, 324 points = 27.9 points per 82 games.

Very much equal players on production / role.

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

For reference, here's a list of 8th overall picks between 2000 and 2020: Nikita Alexeev, Pascal Leclaire, Pierre-Marc Bouchard, Braydon Coburn, Alexandre Picard, Devin Setoguchi, Peter Mueller, Zach Hamill, Mikkel Boedker, Scott Glennie, Alex Burmistrov, Sean Couturier, Derrick Pouliot, Rasmus Ristolainen, William Nylander, Zach Werenski, Alex Nylander, Casey Mittelstadt, Adam Boqvist, Philip Broberg, and Jack Quinn.

A few franchise players in there for sure, but I take Kris Draper over at least 2/3s of those players, probably more like 3/4s.

Staying on subject, I do think Kasper will produce more than Draper. If he develops how we hope, he'll get some powerplay time and less purely-defensive deployment. I think he'll produce more offense than Draper (although I do think that Draper on a normal, non-HOF team is probably a middle six center chipping in 15-20 goals).

Kasper very likely won't be the defensive player that Kris was, but that's not really a knock. Kasper could be in the top 1-5% of defensive forwards in the league, Drapes was probably in that <1%.

 

[lilidk]

This is funny comparison.

Kris Draper 1157 career games, 161 goals = 11.4 goals per 82 games
Darren Helm, 823 career games, 119 goals = 11.8 goals per 82 games.

Draper retiring at Helm's age, 950 career games, 140 goals = 12.2 goals per 82 games.

Kris Draper 1157 career games, 364 points = 25.8 points per 82 games
Darren Helm, 823 career games, 266 points = 26.5 points per 82 games.

Draper retiring at Helm's age, 950 career games, 324 points = 27.9 points per 82 games.

Very much equal players on production / role.

Not sure , but I believe Draper line was mostly against top line and Helm not really, it was mostly for Datsyuk - Zetterberg

 

[Gniwder]

You also said his production was "low and disappointing" because he was 160th in AHL scoring. I explained why in the context of his actual peers his production was probably decent at worst.

Predicting more AHL time is easy considering the NHL roster construction. That's almost a completely different discussion than one that focuses on the actual merits of the prospect. Whether or not Kasper starts in the NHL or AHL may not be the huge indicator of where he's at as a prospect as much as it says where the team is at and their philosophy about prospect development. Teams that want to be good almost never play U20 or even U21 players full-time.
For example; last season the only U21 player who played the full year on a playoff team was Johnston in Dallas.

LOL, your cause and effect are ass backwards. The reason why playoff teams don't have younger players on the team is because they have later picks. You think Bedard would be playing in the AHL if he was picked by Florida or Edmonton?

In any case, if Kasper turns out to be a bottom 6 defensive center, that is DEFINITELY disappointing. Kid needs more time in the AHL to develop some offense.

 

[Pavels Dog]

LOL, your cause and effect are ass backwards. The reason why playoff teams don't have younger players on the team is because they have later picks. You think Bedard would be playing in the AHL if he was picked by Florida or Edmonton?

I'm not sure why you're insisting on comparing against Bedard or other top 3 picks. That's typically a tier of prospect that is fast-tracked regardless of circumstances.

Did Brandt Clarke play only 16 NHL games last season because he was a late pick? Do you think he would have played more or less NHL games if he was drafted by San Jose, Chicago or Montreal?

In any case, if Kasper turns out to be a bottom 6 defensive center, that is DEFINITELY disappointing. Kid needs more time in the AHL to develop some offense.

That's a fine opinion to have. Maybe he needs more time, maybe not. I'd lean towards the second half + playoffs showing that the offense is coming along and if he has a strong camp I wouldn't hesitate to bring him up.

 

[Indrid Cold]

Kasper very likely won't be the defensive player that Kris was, but that's not really a knock. Kasper could be in the top 1-5% of defensive forwards in the league, Drapes was probably in that <1%.

And because of that, Helm wasn't in the same league as Drapes. If you're old enough to have followed those teams Draper was a big part of, then you know.

 

[Oddbob]

Regardless of what Draper did, you still don't hope for a Top 10 pick to be only a 3rd-4th line player. I love Draper (one of my fave Wings ever) but he was only Selke level defence for 3-5 seasons of his career, while most seasons were low offence. Pretty sure the season he won the Selke he played with Yzerman quite bit, which is why he scored 24 goals that one time. His last two Selke noms were clearly reputation votes from Detroit media members.

Pretty sure we all hope he will become at least a 50 pt guy with good defence and physicality.

 

[Our Lady Peace]

Whether we think it's a good or bad thing that Kasper may 'only' be a 50 center that's physical with good two-way play, I think what's important about him is that at 19 years old he showed quick, consistent growth all year especially after missing an entire offseason with injury

In the playoffs he centered what would eventually be the Griffs most important line and he showed many nights he was a strong offensive piece. Playoff hockey is different, and he is not a timid kid. You need pesky/skill combo players like that, even if the perceived ceiling "isn't that high" is relative other young players drafted around him

Again, 19 years old playing his first season and on smaller ice. Whether he be in the AHL full time again, he will surely build on that growth as it often takes many CHLers drafted high around his slot until their D+4 to find the same groove that Kasper found in his D+2 in the AHL, let alone in playoff hockey. It's different hockey, and it's the most important hockey all year

Also I am quite sick of hearing Draper's name around this thread please don't ruin him for me

 

[odin1981]

Every argument is a strawman here isn't it? I was explaining why there aren't point per game prospects in the AHL, it's because they get promoted. Kids like Bedard and Cooley don't even spend any time in the AHL. Does it make you happier now that I picked centers?

Kasper's spending at least another half a season in the AHL. That much I can pretty much guarantee.

So if you even had a chance at playing in the league after having a knee surgery over the summer how much would you score in a season there Wayne Gretzky?

 

[Oddbob]

Whether we think it's a good or bad thing that Kasper may 'only' be a 50 center that's physical with good two-way play, I think what's important about him is that at 19 years old he showed quick, consistent growth all year especially after missing an entire offseason with injury

In the playoffs he centered what would eventually be the Griffs most important line and he showed many nights he was a strong offensive piece. Playoff hockey is different, and he is not a timid kid. You need pesky/skill combo players like that, even if the perceived ceiling "isn't that high" is relative other young players drafted around him

Again, 19 years old playing his first season and on smaller ice. Whether he be in the AHL full time again, he will surely build on that growth as it often takes many CHLers drafted high around his slot until their D+4 to find the same groove that Kasper found in his D+2 in the AHL, let alone in playoff hockey. It's different hockey, and it's the most important hockey all year

Also I am quite sick of hearing Draper's name around this thread please don't ruin him for me

I only mentioned Draper because someone else brought him up in this thread.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

You also said his production was "low and disappointing" because he was 160th in AHL scoring. I explained why in the context of his actual peers his production was probably decent at worst.

Predicting more AHL time is easy considering the NHL roster construction. That's almost a completely different discussion than one that focuses on the actual merits of the prospect. Whether or not Kasper starts in the NHL or AHL may not be the huge indicator of where he's at as a prospect as much as it says where the team is at and their philosophy about prospect development. Teams that want to be good almost never play U20 or even U21 players full-time.
For example; last season the only U21 player who played the full year on a playoff team was Johnston in Dallas.

The funny thing about this "He was only 160th in scoring!" comment is, to be top 60 to me is this; 11 more points and Kasper would have been 60th. 15 more points would be 40th. 20 more points would be 22nd in AHL scoring. It's not some weird flex when scoring in that league is clustered so closely and the Griffins were not a very high scoring team outside of Berggren.