Gotcha. That is way better than the hunters who kill animals and then don't eat the met. Deer hunters who want the hide, head, and hooves. I have actually come across what they left behind. Used a hatchet on the legs and head down into the shoulders. The meat is left to the scavengers. They should be shot. Eat what you kill or don't hunt it.
2021/22 Utica Comets and ECHL Talk
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Gotcha. That is way better than the hunters who kill animals and then don't eat the met. Deer hunters who want the hide, head, and hooves. I have actually come across what they left behind. Used a hatchet on the legs and head down into the shoulders. The meat is left to the scavengers. They should be shot. Eat what you kill or don't hunt it.
JimEIV
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Yeah that is a real problem and a stain on the vast majority of the ethical sportsmen that do go afield.
As I understand it, New York is one of the few States that do not have a "wanton waste" law...There is no requirement to take anything that is set into game code. At least there wasn't, I know they were working on something in 2020, I don't know if was approved or not.
Comets sign 2 more.
Samuel Laberge and Ryan Schmelzer.
Laberge, 24 yr-old LW and undrafted, starting his 5th pro season. He started out with the Texas Stars and after 2 seasons was let go with 22Pts in 97 GP (.23PPG). He spent year 3 in the LNAH and year 4 in the ECHL with the Allen Americans. This guy belongs in Adirondack.
Schmelzer is familiar to NJ fans that follow their AHL affiliate. He is a 27 yr-old C and also undrafted starting his 4th yr of pro hockey. The previous 3 were all spent in Binghamton. He has recorded 55 Pts in 133GP (.41PPG). These are barely better numbers than Cam Darcy and he sucks. Hopefully he is just depth. A 4th year player with his numbers isn't the kind of player you use to support rising prospects.
Samuel Laberge and Ryan Schmelzer.
Laberge, 24 yr-old LW and undrafted, starting his 5th pro season. He started out with the Texas Stars and after 2 seasons was let go with 22Pts in 97 GP (.23PPG). He spent year 3 in the LNAH and year 4 in the ECHL with the Allen Americans. This guy belongs in Adirondack.
Schmelzer is familiar to NJ fans that follow their AHL affiliate. He is a 27 yr-old C and also undrafted starting his 4th yr of pro hockey. The previous 3 were all spent in Binghamton. He has recorded 55 Pts in 133GP (.41PPG). These are barely better numbers than Cam Darcy and he sucks. Hopefully he is just depth. A 4th year player with his numbers isn't the kind of player you use to support rising prospects.
Tao Jersey Jones
Registered User
Schmelzer wore an 'A' last season and will again. None of the signings so far seem to move the needle and look largely like ECHL tweeners and retreads like White. Hoping for a first line vet F and solid top 4 vet D to get Utica into compete mode.
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Schmelzer has good size and he produced really well in the 2nd half of 2019-20. Particularly with Maltsev gone he’s fine for him to return as a bottom six center, particularly since he got an “A” last season.
Laberge is 6’2” and 205 lbs, so his size is a plus. He was in the ECHL last year and scored 37 points in 50 regular season games. He had a very slow start though, then scored 29 points (13G 16A) points in the last 34 regular season games and ended with 5 points (2G 3A) in 5 playoff games. Maybe they saw something they liked, if he has physicality with a little scoring pop he might be fine.
Still waiting on the Ben Street-style scoring center replacement though.
I'm not going to expect much from Laberge. His numbers are so typical of the ECHL players. real good numbers down there and barely put up a few points, if that, when called up to the AHL. I've seen bushels of these guys and maybe 1 in 15-20 actually shows any promise. He did put up some points in Texas, but not enough to be considered worth a 2nd contract. The next 2 years no one came calling to even ask for him on a loan. If you are only talking about 1 1st line vet forward and 1 solid top 4 D-man as Tao Jones stated in post #279 above, there would have to be 18-22 NJ prospects to fill out the roster. Add in Colton White and Ryan Schmelzer and you'd have an average AHL roster numbers wise.
1 solid top line veteran Forward
1 veteran top 4 D-man
1 Colton white
1 Ryan Schmelzer
That's 4 players
The average AHL team carries at least 15-16 forwards and 8-9 D-men and most would have 2 more of each that they stashed in the ECHL that they know can at least tread water in the AHL. Add to this 4 goalies, 2 in Utica and 2 more in the ECHL or maybe one loaned out to another AHL team. Do the Devils have 13-14 AHL level forwards and 7 D to send here that will give the Comets a competitive Division team? The 2019-20 team that made a 2nd half push and motored up the standings had a quite a few players above the prospect level.
This is a question all of the Comets fan base probably has as they count he signings so far and see 2 guys that are AHL players in Schmelzer and White. We are used to Vancouver assigning very few new prospects every season. Usually lucky to have 3 or 4 new guys. Then a handful of guys they have assigned here from 2-5 years, maybe 5 or 6 forwards and 4 or so D-men. The rest of the roster was college free agents, a European free agent or 2, and the rest were AHL level UFAs ranging from a couple top 6 forwards, 1 top line D-man, another couple AHL level vet d-men and a couple forwards and finally some pro depth players that weren't going to push the envelope.
We know the Devils have a bunch of promising prospects that will be a new thing in Utica. They will fill out much more of the game night lineup than we are used to, but we also need regardless of how many prospects are here there will have to be some very good support players. After this week's goings on, I get the feeling we will see some of the players I am looking for start to be announced. I mean there 's still quite a few players off the 50 list not even signed yet and some won't be.
Sorry for the ramble. It's late and I am probably typing nonsense amid my serious concerns.
I ask this question seriously because I don't know who you guys are counting on, the 4 who will battle it out for the 2 be on the Devils roster and the other 2 to be sent down. I know the names of those who are prospects and some have very high promise while others seem to have more work to do to reach that level and a few don't seem to be serious contenders any time soon.
NJ picking up more veteran NHL players would send guys that really need more work to the AHL. On the other hand, those NHL moves could could remove a prospect or 2 or even more.
I'll be honest with you guys, the number of posters on this AHL page is few and far between. We stormed through 40 page AHL postings over and over and over during the Vancouver/Utica 8 seasons. I put up 16,000 posts between the Vancouver pages and the Comets pages and a larger proportion of those posts were on the Utica pages. I hope this site becomes a lot more active once assignments start and the pre-sesaon gets under way and finally into the actual season.
This post is not meant to be snarky, just voicing a concern that has crept into my mind during the past 77 days since the agreement was signed between Utica and New Jersey. This thread went May 16th and has only accumulated 281 posts in 67 days. That's just over 4 posts/day. I'm used to so much more more than that. Like I said, hoping I'm just nervous over nothing ans when it picks it picks up. I can relax. HAH!
Good Night.
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I’ve said before that Bing had plenty of vet defensemen on the 2019-20 team, since we were a wee bit short on actual defensive prospects at the time, and guys like Dakota Mermis and Matt Tennyson, among others, were plenty solid. There are a bunch of defensive prospects so there won’t be a lot of room but it doesn’t mean they aren’t adding anyone.
We signed both Mermis and Tennyson on July 1st 2019. Ben Street was also signed on July 1st 2019, which was when free agency started. And that was when other new teams had signed him too. (Well the Ducks signed Street on July 2, 2018, but my point stands.) The higher end scoring center and the experienced tweener defenseman and his etc we all want signed will likely be getting two-way deals with a good chunk of guaranteed money so getting them during free agency isn’t unusual.
People aren’t posting because the Expansion Draft and the NHL Draft are about to happen and so not a lot of people are thinking about the Comets. And after the drafts people will be focused on free agency when it starts on the 28th.
Free agency, and any player trades, will have an effect on what people think of the Comets because the more players added to the Devils the harder it will be for prospects to make the team. And who they add in FA. And seeing the new unis will be exciting.
The Comets franchise name has a long history. I remember the Clinton Comets. This is from the 1960s and probably during the original six era of the NHL. They played the Long Island Ducks a few games at the Commack Arena.
Presumably this is the same Comets, decades down the line and having moved to another Rust Belt city. It's interesting, the links between these clubs and the old cities along the Erie Canal.
Utica isn't "another Rust Belt City " the Comets moved to. Clinton is a village just outsdied of Utica, NY and to a larger city it would be considered a suburb of Utica. The Clinton Comets used to split weekend games between the Cinton arena one night and the Utica Aud the next.
The Utica Aud (as we in the area still refer to it) is now the recently remodeled gorgeous Adirondack Bank Center, is decorated with A Clinton Comets Banner commemorating their 1967-68 unreal record of 57-5-10. The top of the auditorium has the photo images of the most famous of the Clinton teams in huge placards that are spaced around the entire building. There is also a mural on the wall of the outer concourse dedicated to the old Comets.
There are still a handful of the boys living in the area and they have been given lifetime season tickets in the lower seating in the corner to the right of the Comets net. They have been featured in several pre-game ceremonies and interviews have been aired on the jumbotron.
In front of the main entrance between the 72 Tavern and Grill, a restaurant adjacent to the building, and the entrance is a magnificent bronze statue of 4 of the local greats still in the area and filling seats in the aforementioned area, Jack Kane, Borden Smith, David Armstrong, and Pete Prevost.
Clinton won the US Kraft Hockeyville award on April, 14, 2018 and was the recipient of a $150,000 prize to upgrade that old Clinton arena, home of those Clinton Comets. NBC did some upgrades in order to broadcast the game that didn 't come from the prize. New arena lighting, roofing, and many other upgrades took place and the arena is still home to the Clinton High School hockey team (multiple NY State High School Champions), a men's hockey league, and the Clinton Figure Skating Club, as well as open skating for the public.
So, yes this is still the "same Comets decades down the line" and they haven't really moved anywhere. They are a mainstay in the Mohawk Valley.
This is a great resume on the history of this franchise and a great look at the current arena. I regret having used the term "rust belt city" for any of these places and not just Clinton. These cities, towns and outlying villages along the river and the old Erie canal route have extraordinarily rich histories, nor did I know about that insane season the Comets had in the late 60s. (I saw them play then too). A few years ago I Also took Amtrak to Rochester in the dead of winter, when snow was falling and they weren't flying, and it was an amazing trip along the snow clogged valley, with ice flows and ice push ridges jumbled up below the train embankment and the train stopping at stations within sight of the river.
It's super cool that the Devils have joined up with a franchise that has such a rich history, a history and tradition far longer than that of the Devils themselves. Hopefully the current edition associated with Jersey will add new lustre to this history. I would love to see this team in that arena. Maybe I will get the chance some time.
The Adirondack Bank Cenetr (the AUD) is just a short walk up the street from the front of the train station. Lodging is a walk over the bridge to your right after crossing the street when walking to the Aud. The Aud from the train station is perfectly located with lodging and dining at any price range right at your doorstep.
If you drive, you turn left onto Genesse St after getting off the thruway at the Utica exit. You will pass all the eating establishments and hotels on the very short ride to Whitesboro St. Turn right onto Whitesboro St and the Aud is right up the street on your left with parking lots on your right.
Come visit us any time. Make sure you book your tickets in advance through Ticketmaster. You don't want to arrive and discover the building is sold out. The Comets currently hold the record for Consecutive AHL sellouts and opening game this season will add another to the count. They have been sold out for all regular season games and playoffs since the late part of 2015 to the present. The league doesn't count the playoff games in the record. Nor sure why not.
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JimEIV
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I just got my "Like" button back today and I'm glad I did...I love historical hockey post
I just got my "Like" button back today and I'm glad I did...I love historical hockey post
I'll use my "Like" button for this!
NuxFan09
Registered User
Hey guys! Just popping in to say Devils fans are in for a helluva treat. Comets fans are seriously the best in the AHL. Bad Goalie, UticaHockey and others are really active and provide a wealth of hockey and local knowledge. Your AHL thread will be can't miss reading, that's for sure.
Comets fans, congrats on your new NHL parent. I just hope GM Fitzgerald signs some good centres for you guys.
Comets fans, congrats on your new NHL parent. I just hope GM Fitzgerald signs some good centres for you guys.
JK3
Go Easy-Step Lightly-Stay Free
I used to go up there with my older brother when I was a kid, those stories of getting washed away always scared the shit out of me.
We used to take our boat up there too to troll the lake in the fall. I remember pulling into the mouth of the river and seeing the salmon run for the first time. Blew my mind at the amount of fish boiling everywhere, you could walk across them.
UticaHockey
Registered User
No. All of the players who did play in the AHL last year were 19 and wouldn't be going back to junior anyway.
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The rule will really only effect some 2020 from the OHL like Perfetti, Perrault, Foerster etc. who got a chance to play 20+ games since their season was cancelled.
The WHL guys went back before they played 20 games (Zary, Jarvis). Of course some may be old enough for the AHL anyway, like Mercer.
JimEIV
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Have you caught any of the huge Brown trout trolling? Some of the Browns that follow the salmon and steelhead into the rivers are incredible...I have never caught one but I have seen big ones caught...Take a look at the first picture on this site...I love to sight fish to a brown like that. I have never seen one to fish to though.
Tips to Catch Brown Trout in Upstate New York - On The Water
JK3
Go Easy-Step Lightly-Stay Free
Wow that’s a beautiful fish! No I never did catch one, just steelhead and lake trout but my brother might have. I’ll have to ask him as it was such a long time ago since we used to go up there. We’re pretty much all saltwater fishing these days.
Tao Jersey Jones
Registered User
Was waiting for AHL UFA lists to be published especially for F, but seems like the AHL writers are dragging their feet.
Hershey signed Cody Franson today who was on my list of potential AHL UFA D gets.
Here are some more in no particular order I am looking at:
Ryan Murphy (Binghamton retread)
Dillon Simpson
Robbie Russo
Cameron Gaunce
Ryan Stanton
Devante Stephens
Thomas Schemitsch was on there too before he signed before he re-signed with Cleveland.
NHL UFA D will have to wait until next week if we don't extend Tennyson or Connor Carrick sooner, or an NHL UFA accepts an AHL offer.
David Warsofsky already signed in Germany and Trevor Carrick signed with brother Sam in San Diego.
Cameron Schilling
Joe Hicketts
Darren Raddysh
Jimmy Schuldt
Derrick Pouliot
Calle Rosen
Gavin Bayreuther
Mitch Reinke (Utica retread)
Hey guys! Just popping in to say Devils fans are in for a helluva treat. Comets fans are seriously the best in the AHL. Bad Goalie, UticaHockey and others are really active and provide a wealth of hockey and local knowledge. Your AHL thread will be can't miss reading, that's for sure.
Comets fans, congrats on your new NHL parent. I just hope GM Fitzgerald signs some good centres for you guys.
"I just hope GM Fitzgerald signs some good centres for you guys.
LOL. I felt that one.
Hopefully, unlike the previous parent, this organization recognizes that their prospect forwards are behind the eight ball without good centers to manage the puck. Also, unlike Vancouver, the Devils have a wealth of young high expectation prospects at all positions and that includes centers. The exception to this is in goal. They are short on highly regarded goalie prospects. They hope somebody will rise up from the 4 they have signed.
Many posters on this site are calling for a veteran top line forward, a veteran center, and a couple veteran defenders. What level of vet has not actually been described for the D. As I said they have a lot of prospects but not enough to place a competitive team on the ice comprised solely of prospects. As most would agree kids need support to grow their games and I am confident at the moment that GM Fitz is a bit wiser in that area than Benning ever was.
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"I just hope GM Fitzgerald signs some good centres for you guys.
LOL. I felt that one.
Hopefully, unlike the previous parent, this organization recognizes that their prospect forwards are behind the eight ball without good centers to manage the puck. Also, unlike Vancouver, the Devils have a wealth of young high expectation prospects at all positions and that includes cednters. The exception to this is in goal. They are short on highly regarded goalie prospects. They hope somebody will rise up from the 4 they have signed.
Many posters on this site are calling for a veteran top line forward, a veteran center, and a couple veteran defenders. What level of vet has not actually been described for the D. As I said they have a lot of prospects but not enough to place a competitive team on the ice comprised solely of prospects. As most would agree kids need support to grow their games and I am confident at the moment that GM Fitz is a bit wiser in that area than Benning ever was.
NJ's depth would seem to be in a bit of flux at the moment. The moved Maltsev and lost Bastian, two guys that would push a prospect further down the depth chart and perhaps Maltsev would have played in Utica. It's always tricky to know who will follow the franchise when it relocates. As you've posted, NJ will likely have a number of prospects at wing but center may require real outside help. Defense on the left side is likely going to be mostly the prospects with Bahl, Okhotiyuk, Vukojevic, and maybe Hellickson. Maybe Bahl wins a roster spot out of camp, but NJ has Graves, Smith, Siegenthaler, and Butcher in the NHL already. On the right side they need veteran help and a spot for Walsh. NJ is prospect heavy right now and the AHL team will suffer some growing pains as the young players mature. Hopefully the local fans can appreciate the youthful enthusiasm while the young guys learn the pro game.
- Ryan Murphy, 28, is a 2011 1st round selection of the Carolina Hurricanes. He is an 8-yr pro. 2019-20 was played in the KHL and he started 2020-21 on loan in the KHL, but returned to play with AHL Henderson. The man puts up points in the AHL, .63PPG in 232 GP, with 27Pts/37 GP last season. At the same time his -33 career totals in the AHL indicates he might not be a defensive stalwart. Would guess NJ isn't bent on trying to get him back in the fold.
- Darren Raddysh, 25, is an undrafted career AHLer in his 4 pro seasons. With 228 GP he would not be a veteran by AHL rules. I've had minimal exposure to him in his time with Hartford but I don't recall him at all. He's a .42 PPG player. He wore an "A" last year in Hartford.
- Mitch Reinke was a first pairing for the Comets last season and was a St. Louis prospect. They burned a year off his 2 yr ELC contract with a game in St Louis when he came out of Michigan Tech at the end of the 2017-18 season, thus his ELC only lasted for 1 year. He has received a 1-yr 2 way the last 2 seasons. He is an undrafted 25 yr-old and with only 141 +2 NHL GP would not be a veteran by AHL standards. Have to think St. Louis will bring him back.
He can QB a PP, but if the Devils have a d-man they think would be their man, he could be the #2 QB. He has an offensive side to his game. He has been a .56 PPG player over his 3 seasons in the AHL. I think there will better options available, but he would easily fit somewhere in the Comets top 6.
- Cameron Gaunce has been effective for several franchises and has had NHL cups of coffee for Colorado, Dallas, Pittsburgh, and Tampa Bay. He was a 2nd round selection by Colorado in 2008. He has become a very successful journeyman AHL D-man hiring out his skills to the highest bidder in recent seasons. At 31 with 670 GP + 37 NHL GP, he would be a veteran. He's worn an "A" in Portland, Syracuse (2018-19), and Ontario (2020-21).
He puts up points (.39 PPG in 670 AHL GP, but his last 2 seasons in Syracuse he recorded .70PPG) and plays a solid game on D. Again +/- is not a true indicator of Player's game but having a +114 for his career and the only - season he recorded was a -8 in 2012-13. Having watched him with Texas, W-B/Scranton, Cleveland, and Syracuse I believe he would be a veteran asset.
- Watched Derrick Pouliot, a 2012 1st round selection of the Penguins, stink up the ice in Vancouver for 2 seasons. He's puts up points in the AHL (.62 PPG), but still stinks defensively. There are and have been many of these guys in the AHL with TJ Brennan and Adam Clendening serving as examples. He has always signed 2-way contracts and after failing to do the job in the NHL ended up with the AHL affiliate. The exception was Vancouver where his sorry ass was used for 2 seasons where he failed to pile up points and was a defensive disaster. He will turn 28 in Jan and with the last one paying him $425K to play in AHL Ontario. His 197 AHL GP + 202 NHL GP make him a veteran by AHL rules.
- Calle Rosen is a 27 yr-old undrafted former AHL All-Star, a Calder cup champ with the Toronto Marlies, a .53 PPG player, and a consistent annual - defeneder. 181 AHL GP + 20 NHL GP + 96 SHL GP combined would make him Veteran Exempt by AHL rules. Another okay choice.
- Cameron Schilling has become a journeyman AHL defender. He was an undrafted player out of NCAA Miami of Ohio but signed as a UFA by the Washington Caps. He spent 3 years with Washington playing all but 6 games with AHL Hershey. He moved on to Chicago on another 2-way contract and played 2 seasons in AHL Rockford. Then 3 years with Winnipeg spent in AHL Manitoba on 3 more 2-way seasons. Finally wound up back in Hershey on another 2-way signed by Washington. He's 32 and keeps getting 2-way contracts while spending almost no time in the NHL. His 10 yr AHL PPG is .35. He must have some kind of talent or NHL teams wouldn't keep giving him multiple year 2-ways. I must admit to not have any idea of how well he plays or doesn't. This man is an AHL Veteran. He wore an "A" in Manitoba (2018-19) and in Hershey (2020-21). Another decent fit on paper.
- Joe Hicketts, 25 yr-old undrafted D-man, was signed by Detroit as a free agent out of Jrs. and has spent his 5 years in pro hockey in the Detroit organization. All but 22 of his GP have been with the AHL Grand Rapids Griffins. He has posted a .41 PPG. I've never seen him play. With 286 AHL GP + 22 NHL GP he is a Veteran Exempt by AHL rules. Not the kind of guy you take to eat up a VE spot.
- Jimmy Schuldt, at 26, is only a 3rd year pro after 4 seasons at NCAA St. Cloud State. He was not drafted, but Vegas signed him to an ELC as a free agent. He spent both seasons in the AHL except the one game in Vegas to burn a year off his contract when he first signed. He has scored at .39PPG in 90 GP. He would not have veteran status. I know zip about this guy.
- Gavin Bayreuther was selected by Seattle in the expansion draft.
- Dillon Simpson, 28, was a 2011 4th round selection of the Edmonton Oilers. In 8 years of pro hockey he has played 3 games in the NHL. His 402 AHL GP makes him a Veteran based upon AHL rules. He's a .31 PPG D-man. He played against the Comets with the Oklahoma City Barons in the 2015 playoffs. He was okay, but nothing all that impressive. He was pointless, didn't commit a penalty, and was -2 in the Comets 4-3 series win. He has spent the last 3 seasons with the Cleveland Barons and wore an "A" the last 2. Last year was his first on an AHL contract. All the other seasons he was on NHL 2-ways. Apparently he has become a wasted contract for the NHL. His point totals say he is more of a defensive D-man. The fact he has worn the "A" says he must have some kind of leadership qualities. He's a question mark.
- Robbie Russo, 28, was a 4th round selection of the New York Islanders. He played 4 years at NCAA Notre Dame. The Islanders didn't sign him, but he was signed as a free agent out of college in 2015 to a 2-yr ELC by the Detroit Red Wings. He played for AHL Grand Rapids for 3 seasons and was then traded to the Arizona Coyotes where he played 2 years for the AHL Tuscon Roadrunners. Last season no NHL team offered and he signed a PTO with AHL San Jose. He was selected to the AHL All Rookie team in 2015 and selected to the 2016-17 AHL All-Star Team. He wore an "A" in his 2 seasons in Tuscon. After 5 years with 2 NHL organizations he couldn't find another NHL taker. He's now on the route of AHL journeyman if he can find an AHL team with interest. He is a .5 PPG for his AHL career, which says he has a better than average PPG/offensive side than the average AHL journeyman AHLer. Another maybe.
- Ryan Stanton, 32, played 2 of his 11 seasons in the NHL with the Vancouver Canucks in 2013-14 and 2014-15. The other 9 years have all been in the AHL. The Comets played Hershey 4 times in 2015-16. Those are the only games Stanton could have played against the Comets. Stanton is a defensive D-man. He's worn and "A" the last 2 seasons in Ontario and Bakersfield. They are also the only 2 of his 11 seasons that he has been on AHL contracts. He would obviously have AHL Veteran status. Since those 2 years in Vancouver he has played for 5 different AHL teams. May be leader, but could be running out of legs.
Devante Stevens, 24, was a 2015 5th round selection of the Buffalo Sabres. He has played 4 pro seasons and all 4 have been split between the AHL and the ECHL with Rochester/Cincinnati and Syracuse/Orlando. He's played 71 AHL games and has recorded a .24 PPG. He is not a player I'd even consider.
Cameron Gaunce would be a good guy to bring in. After him this isn't an A-list.
Reinke wouldn't be bad.
Schilling, Simpson, Rosen, and Russo might be worth a shot if push comes to shove.
Aside from Gaunce I'm working off stats and a few other factors like number of years on NHL 2-ways, wearing the "A", and what I can remember of them playing vs the Comets.
I want to see the list of AHL availables, NHL UFAs that their teams have given up on, and those that are waived later on. Better choices will be coming up.
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All an AHL fan base can expect with a team rich in prospects is that the parent is willing to provide those kids with quality help in order for them to develop as quickly and skillfully as possible. That should be the parent's #1 priority for its prospects. You give the kids the spots you want them to shoulder the responsibility for and you give them the experienced guys to give them every chance to succeed there. Prospects thrown to the wolves and left to sink or swim are more likely to drown than become excellent swimmers. I have read many posts here so far that back up those thoughts.
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