2020 Redraft - Top 5

[norrisnick]

I've seen enough of your posts that I knew you'd have some kind of bad take and that you'd be able to handle having it pointed out.

I'd be fine with it as well if it wasn't against the rules of the site. I have way too many bad takes on here to hide and if someone points them out, I can admit I was wrong.

In fact at one point I made a thread about bad takes that you've (Not you specifically) have had on this site and it was hilarious.

Which rule?

 

[Golden_Jet]

No these guys are all 23 or about to turn 23. Which is close to the start of your prime. Saying there’s room for movement for the other players to catch back up is silly because it implies there isn’t still ways for Raymond to improve what he is currently. If you are putting byfield, lafreniere or Jarvis anywhere near Raymond right now then it’s Canadian player bias. Raymond just played Byfield head to head and he was far far more impactful, it wasn’t close.

What’s your top 5?

 

[RedHawkDown]

Again, I believe you’re underrating the other players to the point where you think there’s a bigger gap than there has been. I believe Jarvis, Sanderson and Faber were all better last year, so your logic that Raymond has always been ahead and will always be ahead doesn’t follow based on my evaluations. You can disagree with those evaluations, but your trends don’t follow mine. Byfield and Laf I agree with.

As for Stutzle, you're missing the point. I didn’t say Stutzle will definitely pick it up, just that the trends in Raymond’s favour between them are quite recent.

Raymond is an excellent PP player and the Wings were good on it last year, but he had 16 PP points last year and already has 25 this year. The Wings are shooting 20.5% with Raymond on the ice on the PP, while they shot 12.5% with him on the ice on the PP last year. Even the Oilers in ‘23 didn’t shoot 20% for the season on the PP. In all likelihood, he won’t end the year with 41 PP points like he’s pacing for. He’s tied for 2nd in the league currently.

PP scoring should go down and EV scoring will go up. 5v5 offense was nonexistent under Lalonde and is FAR better under McLellan. This is also an important point you are ignoring.

You are free to have your take, but when the take makes no sense to the rest of us it's also going to be called out.

This is like me saying that Danielson will be better than Fantilli because I "project" him to be better and I think he's got a lot of development left in him. What's significantly more likely is that both keep progressing and Fantilli maintains the significant lead he has now. These players are the same age. Raymond is also fantastic defensively, and Jarvis is not better than him there.

There is no reasonable argument for Jarvis being the better player today. Defensemen, that will depend on which position you value more. But for forwards, he is clearly the best forward out of all of these guys now, and unlike the rest of them, he has shown continued steady progression that has taken off recently, while the other guys have regressed to varying degrees.

What’s your top 5?

Not the guy you quoted but I'll give it a shot.

Raymond
Stutzle
Sanderson
Faber
Rossi/Jarvis tied

 

[HugeInTheShire]

Which rule?

It's considered flaming

 

[Regal]

PP scoring should go down and EV scoring will go up. 5v5 offense was nonexistent under Lalonde and is FAR better under McLellan. This is also an important point you are ignoring.

You are free to have your take, but when the take makes no sense to the rest of us it's also going to be called out.

This is like me saying that Danielson will be better than Fantilli because I "project" him to be better and I think he's got a lot of development left in him. What's significantly more likely is that both keep progressing and Fantilli maintains the significant lead he has now. These players are the same age. Raymond is also fantastic defensively, and Jarvis is not better than him there.

There is no reasonable argument for Jarvis being the better player today. Defensemen, that will depend on which position you value more. But for forwards, he is clearly the best forward out of all of these guys now, and unlike the rest of them, he has shown continued steady progression that has taken off recently, while the other guys have regressed to varying degrees.


Not the guy you quoted but I'll give it a shot.

Raymond
Stutzle
Sanderson
Faber
Rossi/Jarvis tied

Fair point on EV scoring, but these examples like the Danielson one continue to be way overblown and you guys keep making it out like there’s been a huge difference between them. It’s also interesting that the take seems to only make no sense only to Wings fans. Jarvis had more goals and 5 fewer points last year. The idea there was no argument for him going into the year is absurd. Raymond has surpassed him this year, and I said he should probably be ahead at this point, though I’m very high on Jarvis.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Fair point on EV scoring, but these examples like the Danielson one continue to be way overblown and you guys keep making it out like there’s been a huge difference between them. It’s also interesting that the take seems to only make no sense only to Wings fans. Jarvis had more goals and 5 fewer points last year. The idea there was no argument for him going into the year is absurd. Raymond has surpassed him this year, and I said he should probably be ahead at this point, though I’m very high on Jarvis.

I think it's fine to say Jarvis was close to Raymond last year. This year Raymond has 18 more points in 7 more games, and is also very good defensively. That's what I mean by not close. These guys are both young - why are we assuming Jarvis will continue to get better while Raymond's reached his peak? He was a top 5 pick - it's also plausible that his peak is more of a Kaprizov-Marner-Kucherov level winger, and he keeps improving.

 

[Golden_Jet]

PP scoring should go down and EV scoring will go up. 5v5 offense was nonexistent under Lalonde and is FAR better under McLellan. This is also an important point you are ignoring.

You are free to have your take, but when the take makes no sense to the rest of us it's also going to be called out.

This is like me saying that Danielson will be better than Fantilli because I "project" him to be better and I think he's got a lot of development left in him. What's significantly more likely is that both keep progressing and Fantilli maintains the significant lead he has now. These players are the same age. Raymond is also fantastic defensively, and Jarvis is not better than him there.

There is no reasonable argument for Jarvis being the better player today. Defensemen, that will depend on which position you value more. But for forwards, he is clearly the best forward out of all of these guys now, and unlike the rest of them, he has shown continued steady progression that has taken off recently, while the other guys have regressed to varying degrees.


Not the guy you quoted but I'll give it a shot.

Raymond
Stutzle
Sanderson
Faber
Rossi/Jarvis tied

Kudos on being one of the few wings to actually post a list, vs those attacking other lists, without providing a list.

The top 3 to 5 will likely be a moving target every 6 months anyways, some moving up a notch, some down a notch.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Kudos on being one of the few wings to actually post a list, vs those attacking other lists, without providing a list.

The top 3 to 5 will likely be a moving target every 6 months anyways, some moving up a notch, some down a notch.

Agree that it can still move. But I don't see how you have any argument for the top forward that's not Stutzle or Raymond. Stu is having a down year but has already shown he can put up 90, so he coudl easily have a 100+pt year next year and flip the script. But the other forwards are not close to either of these guys and it's kind of crazy to keep pretending IMO.

 

[cjeagle]

Coach McLellan is comparing Raymond to Redwings great Henrik Zetterberg.

“I said one day he reminds me a little of (Henrik) Zetterberg,” McLellan said. “You could open up a whole book of adjectives to describe Zetterberg. I could probably do that for Lucas right now. He’s a complete player. He plays all three zones; he plays them equally hard. He values each of the three as importantly as the stat sheet. I don’t want to say it’s hard to find players like that but when you do you treasure them.”

Raymond was doing fine before McLellan became Detroit Red Wings coach on Dec. 26. Since then, his game has reached another level. He has 23 points (seven goals, 16 assists) in 16 games under McLellan. He ranks second in the NHL in points during this time, one behind Boston’s David Pastrnak.

With 20 goals and 56 points in 50 games, Raymond is on pace to reach 90 points. No Red Wing has done that since Pavel Datsyuk tallied 97 in both 2007-08 and 2008-09. Zetterberg also hit the mark in 2007-08 (92 points) both players of which were also known for their 2 way game.

“He’s got an abrasiveness to him that I wasn’t aware of,” McLellan said. “I’m going to use a name, and he’s not that player, but a little bit of Zetterberg in him like that determination and a little bit of abrasiveness, the fire kind of.”

McLellan added, “I think they’re both winners. The difference right now is Hank has the jewelry to prove it (2008 Stanley Cup ring) and it takes a team to do that. But I think you could win with Raymond for sure. Competitive, two-way, high hockey IQ, leader.”

Raymond also became the fourth Swede in NHL history to score 20+ goals three different times before the age of 23, joining Mats Sundin (who did it four times), Filip Forsberg, and Gabriel Landeskog.

 

[Regal]

I think it's fine to say Jarvis was close to Raymond last year. This year Raymond has 18 more points in 7 more games, and is also very good defensively. That's what I mean by not close. These guys are both young - why are we assuming Jarvis will continue to get better while Raymond's reached his peak? He was a top 5 pick - it's also plausible that his peak is more of a Kaprizov-Marner-Kucherov level winger, and he keeps improving.

I never said that I’m assuming Jarvis will get better and Raymond won’t. But people are acting like Raymond’s an established 90+ point scorer when it’s only been 50 games. If you agree it was close last year, then I don’t see how it’s absurd to suggest it might change again in another year. I had Jarvis ahead going into the year based on how they played last year and what I thought they’d do moving forward. Raymond has played well enough this year for me to push him ahead and make me rethink his ceiling. And I don’t know where I’d slot Raymond in comparison to Stutzle, Sanderson and Faber at this point, but I see arguments for all of them.

 

[JKG33]

Right now I'd go:

Stu
Raymond/Jarvis
Lundell
Sanderson

Laf, Faber, Holloway knocking at the door of the top 5

 

[RedHawkDown]

I never said that I’m assuming Jarvis will get better and Raymond won’t. But people are acting like Raymond’s an established 90+ point scorer when it’s only been 50 games. If you agree it was close last year, then I don’t see how it’s absurd to suggest it might change again in another year. I had Jarvis ahead going into the year based on how they played last year and what I thought they’d do moving forward. Raymond has played well enough this year for me to push him ahead and make me rethink his ceiling. And I don’t know where I’d slot Raymond in comparison to Stutzle, Sanderson and Faber at this point, but I see arguments for all of them.

Because it’s not close this year? Like even remotely.

Would you also say that it’s fair to suggest Quinn Hughes is close to Evan Bouchard moving forward because Bouchard was kinda close to him last year?

 

[RedWingzz]

I'd take Sanderson over Raymond every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

He is such in impactful player. Think Slavin with better offensive upside.

As a Dman (22YO) he likely has more upside in his game. I think he may well be the concensus best 2020 draftee in 10 years.

You're a sens fan, of course you would. Raymond could put up 100 points and Sens fans would still have an excuse as to why he's nothing special

 

[RedWingzz]

@RedWingzz what’s your top 5, since you’re dissing everyone else’s lists.

@Pavels Dog what is your top 5?

In the summer I had it as :
1-Stutzle
2-Lucas
3-Faber
4-Laf
5- Sanderson

Now I'll go
1-Stutzle
2-Lucas
3- Jarvis
4- Sanderson
5- Faber

Stutzle is still 1 because he has that 90 point season in his pocket, but if Lucas hits 90 this year then it's really a toss up. And I'm not hating on Stutzle, I think he's nasty, and really like his skillset. I just think Lucas gets slept on by everyone (professional writers as well) , and he's done more than enough the last 2 seasons for people to start putting some respect on his name. Stutzle is dynamic and skilled...but so is Lucas. He's taken his game to another level this year, and it's not getting talked about enough.

Regardless, people who had Byfield and Laf above Ray last summer are just Wings haters.

 

[Eegs]

In the summer I had it as :
1-Stutzle
2-Lucas
3-Faber
4-Laf
5- Sanderson

Now I'll go
1-Stutzle
2-Lucas
3- Jarvis
4- Sanderson
5- Faber

Stutzle is still 1 because he has that 90 point season in his pocket, but if Lucas hits 90 this year then it's really a toss up. And I'm not hating on Stutzle, I think he's nasty, and really like his skillset. I just think Lucas gets slept on by everyone (professional writers as well) , and he's done more than enough the last 2 seasons for people to start putting some respect on his name. Stutzle is dynamic and skilled...but so is Lucas. He's taken his game to another level this year, and it's not getting talked about enough.

Regardless, people who had Byfield and Laf above Ray last summer are just Wings haters.

I think that might be about how I'd have it as well. Feel like Jarvis' 2-way play is being underrated, and the fact he's been hampered by shoulder issues for the last year and a half only suggest greater things to come.

I have him, Stutzle and Raymond all grouped very close.

 

[Silky Johnson]

You're a sens fan, of course you would. Raymond could put up 100 points and Sens fans would still have an excuse as to why he's nothing special

I really like Raymond as a player and always thought he would be a great NHLer. He was the player that I had the most emotional connection to from the 2020 draft because of the Frolunda connection with him and Alfredson.

I think Raymond and Stutzle will both put up a 100pt season(s). They are both fantastic NHLers. I give Stutzle the edge mostly based on position.

I also think Sanderson will likely be the best of the three, as long as he takes the next step. I see his likely peak as a 50-60pt+ Jaccob Slavin.

I think your problem is you don't think people can be objective about player because you can't, which is why you are embarrassing yourself in this thread by harassing people who don't agree with you.

 

[Regal]

Because it’s not close this year? Like even remotely.

Would you also say that it’s fair to suggest Quinn Hughes is close to Evan Bouchard moving forward because Bouchard was kinda close to him last year?

This is becoming unproductive

 

[RedWingzz]

I really like Raymond as a player and always thought he would be a great NHLer. He was the player that I had the most emotional connection to from the 2020 draft because of the Frolunda connection with him and Alfredson.

I think Raymond and Stutzle will both put up a 100pt season(s). They are both fantastic NHLers. I give Stutzle the edge mostly based on position.

I also think Sanderson will likely be the best of the three, as long as he takes the next step. I see his likely peak as a 50-60pt+ Jaccob Slavin.

I think your problem is you don't think people can be objective about player because you can't, which is why you are embarrassing yourself in this thread by harassing people who don't agree with you.

Harrassing? Come on Silky Johnson, how am I harrassing anyone? It's a discussion board, and I invited people to have a discussion with me. Like come on , may as well throw me behind bars for "harrassment" because I asked people if their opinions have changed?

Also embarrassing myself? The only people who should feel embarrassed are the ones who said Raymond would fall in a redraft.

As for your boy Sanderson...he's good, but he's not as good as you make him out to be. Yeah he can skate, and he can make a play...and yeah he's solid in the D zone positionally, and has a quick active stick, but let's quit pretending that Jake Sanderson is Cale Makar.

 

[Akrapovince]

1. Raymond

Offensively the output has come, and he plays hockey the responsible way. Doesn’t have to play run and gun to generate points. Very polished and can slow the game down. You can put him out there at any minute in the game at any score for any situation.

2. Faber

Right handed minute munching defensemen are the rarest things to find in the league. He is stable back there and can skate, his offensive flair shows through. Dominant player, debated putting him #1 because Raymond is a winger.

3. Stützle

Game breaking talent, but his puck management and defensive game leaves a lot to be desired. He’s a physical player that competes, but when he’s not putting up points he can be a liability. As a Sens fan that watches every game, the power play struggles can be pretty much pointed at Stützle. Cannot transport the puck up the ice and gain entry and makes terrible decisions at the blue line while playing the flank.

Easily has the skill to turn it around and absolutely run away with being the best pick in the 2020-2030 decade, he is that skilled. Ottawa fans said he was injured last year and wanted people to eat crow after he scored goals early in the season. Now it’s time to ask which is the real Stützle. And it’s a real question.

4. Sanderson

He’s having a down year by his standards but has all the makings of being an all around #1 defensemen. Loses out to Faber because of the down season and not being a right shot.

5. Jarvis

Has played well and produced in a Carolina system that doesn’t exactly promote offense or cater to heavy use within the top six.

To Sens fan:

We are running Jensen and Zub on the right side in our top four. They are great right now. Zub is often injured and Jensen is old. I understand Yakemchuk has the offensive flair, bite and nastiness to be Brent Burns lite, but if you asked me right now if I would rather Faber eating up 25-30 minutes or Stützle for 22 minutes going forward, I’m going with Faber when the only thing we have at RD is a highly touted prospect that we can only hope has the effectiveness of Faber.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Harrassing? Come on Silky Johnson, how am I harrassing anyone? It's a discussion board, and I invited people to have a discussion with me. Like come on , may as well throw me behind bars for "harrassment" because I asked people if their opinions have changed?

Also embarrassing myself? The only people who should feel embarrassed are the ones who said Raymond would fall in a redraft.

As for your boy Sanderson...he's good, but he's not as good as you make him out to be. Yeah he can skate, and he can make a play...and yeah he's solid in the D zone positionally, and has a quick active stick, but let's quit pretending that Jake Sanderson is Cale Makar.

Dude, going back through old posts and hounding people to change their rankings is embarrassing.

And on Sanderson, I'll agree to disagree. D-men take longer to develop and Sanderson has, in my opinion the most room to grow. His offensive game is really improving but needs a bit of consistency to match his flashes of brilliance.

His defensive game is already Elite for a 22YO. He has been let down by the team by having to carry non-NHL level Hamonic at times, but when you give him a decent partner like Zub they become one of the best shutdown pairings in the NHL (best Xgoals per 60 for paring with +300min).

He doesn't need to be Makar to lead the 2020 draft because McDavid, MacKinnon and Draisaitl were taken in Different years.

 

[Snowwy]

3. Stützle

but when he’s not putting up points he can be a liability.

Are you sure? Stutzle is 9th among forwards with at least 20 points in the NHL in On-Ice Expected Goals Against Per 60 Minutes in all situations. Lucas Raymond, who you can apparently put out there any time, is a full-expected goal per game worse. Actually, your entire description of him makes me wonder.

 

[norrisnick]

It's considered flaming

1) Flaming: Critique the opinion, not the person.

It's literally critiquing the opinion.

 

[Pavels Dog]

@Pavels Dog what is your top 5?

1. Stützle
2. Raymond
3. Sanderson
4. Faber
5. Jarvis

Dude, going back through old posts and hounding people to change their rankings is embarrassing.

It's a foundation of sports discussion to serve crow to people who are wrong. If we can't even do that, just shut this forum down. But before you do it, let me just say that I think Lane Hutson is absolute garbage and will be out of the NHL in 1 year at most. I also think Yakemchuk is a bust who will never make the NHL. Man I feel glad that no one is going to hold me accountable for these takes because that would be considered "flaming", "harrassment" and "hounding".

 

[Dotter]

1. Stützle
2. Raymond
3. Sanderson
4. Faber
5. Jarvis


It's a foundation of sports discussion to serve crow to people who are wrong. If we can't even do that, just shut this forum down. But before you do it, let me just say that I think Lane Hutson is absolute garbage and will be out of the NHL in 1 year at most. I also think Yakemchuk is a bust who will never make the NHL. Man I feel glad that no one is going to hold me accountable for these takes because that would be considered "flaming", "harrassment" and "hounding".

Can I ask why you think Sanderson is 3rd? I notice a few people have him ranked higher and I just personally don't understand why, so I am trying to understand the hype.

The only thing I can think of is the elite top two; Raymond and Stutzle are on their own level together ... then everyone else being a tier or 2 below. Perhaps a shallow draft outside the top 2?

 

[Golden_Jet]

Ya

Are you sure? Stutzle is 9th among forwards with at least 20 points in the NHL in On-Ice Expected Goals Against Per 60 Minutes in all situations. Lucas Raymond, who you can apparently put out there any time, is a full-expected goal per game worse. Actually, your entire description of him makes me wonder.

Stutzle is literally the opposite of that description.