2020 Redraft - Top 5

[HugeInTheShire]

4-8 for Raymond eh... ouch, which 7 guys are better?

This was polite?

Calling out? This is a discussion board, and I politely asked people if their rankings have changed. I didn't use any profanity, didn't troll, didn't make fun of anyone, I simply asked people if their rankings have changed.

It's a message board, where you know, people have discussions...

 

[RedWingzz]

This was polite?

That is offensive to you...?

Come on...

If you scroll through this entire thread, you will find people saying much more offensive things to me this summer..

I got laughed at for saying Raymond is closer to Stutzle then Byfield and Laf are to Raymond,and there seemed to be a common theme on which fanbase was doing it.

So is it petty of me to expose these people, yeah it is...but I am also not only exposing them, but I'm genuinely interested in seeing their top 5 today.

Raymond is on a 92 point pace, clearly having the best year of any 2020 draftee, so I wanna see if sens fans still have overrated Jake Sanderson ahead of him.

 

[Crunchy]

That is offensive to you...?

Come on...

If you scroll through this entire thread, you will find people saying much more offensive things to me this summer..

I got laughed at for saying Raymond is closer to Stutzle then Byfield and Laf are to Raymond,and there seemed to be a common theme on which fanbase was doing it.

So is it petty of me to expose these people, yeah it is...but I am also not only exposing them, but I'm genuinely interested in seeing their top 5 today.

Raymond is on a 92 point pace, clearly having the best year of any 2020 draftee, so I wanna see if sens fans still have overrated Jake Sanderson ahead of him.

Woah now, Sanderson is still an absolute stud. I've watched enough of the senators to know they are nothing without him on the backend. Dude is constantly making plays on defense and effortlessly transports the puck to the other side of the rink with possession.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Woah now, Sanderson is still an absolute stud. I've watched enough of the senators to know they are nothing without him on the backend. Dude is constantly making plays on defense and effortlessly transports the puck to the other side of the rink with possession.

Ya, xGA/60 him and his partner Zub, are tops with over 300 minutes as a pair, according to moneypuck.

 

[Pavels Dog]

This has to be getting pretty close to lock, it's nothing more than a Red Wing fan calling out people for underrating Raymond

The takes were awful and inexcusable, what’s the purpose of a message board if that can’t be pointed out?

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

I don’t know why other people’s opinions matter so much to Wings fans in this thread, but not currently, no. Most of the others stagnated or took a step back this year while Raymond has taken a step forward. But I still think it’s early enough where a lot can change moving forward. As I mentioned going into the year, I think there’s been room for fluctuation in the rankings, and I wouldn’t have argued with Raymond being higher.

Listen wings fans coming back to call you out is pretty silly, but it’s not as cringe as you refusing to admit you made a humongous mistake on your list. Doubling down when Raymond is currently on pace for 92 points is crazy.

 

[Regal]

Listen wings fans coming back to call you out is pretty silly, but it’s not as cringe as you refusing to admit you made a humongous mistake on your list. Doubling down when Raymond is currently on pace for 92 points is crazy.

What am I refusing to admit? I said he wouldn’t be 7th currently. What’s cringe is the Wings fans thinking anything is decided by 50 games of pace and continuously pretending like a redraft is a current best player list.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

What am I refusing to admit? I said he wouldn’t be 7th currently. What’s cringe is the Wings fans thinking anything is decide by 50 games of pace and continuously pretending like a redraft is a current best player list

I mean this is more than 50 games...

Raymond has been doing this since the beginning of 2024. Months before you still ranked him well below Byfield and Laf lol.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

What am I refusing to admit? I said he wouldn’t be 7th currently. What’s cringe is the Wings fans thinking anything is decided by 50 games of pace and continuously pretending like a redraft is a current best player list.

Well he had the first or second best season from all the guys in the 2020 draft last year, and he is having by far the best season this year. I think if you have him anything but 1st or 2nd at this point then you’re trolling. It’s not “currently” best player. It’s getting close to 2 seasons worth of data.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Listen wings fans coming back to call you out is pretty silly, but it’s not as cringe as you refusing to admit you made a humongous mistake on your list. Doubling down when Raymond is currently on pace for 92 points is crazy.

People acting like these guys are 18 and it could go any direction is so funny. In general, the trajectory is set by now. This is the easy time to do a redraft and some posters are still determined to be contrarian.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

The takes were awful and inexcusable, what’s the purpose of a message board if that can’t be pointed out?

Keep the receipts coming , whats the point of writing whatever nonsense on here if nobody will dig up the crap people spouted as gospel , I am enjoying it keep up the good work Detroit fans , just stop winning games please

 

[Regal]

Well he had the first or second best season from all the guys in the 2020 draft last year, and he is having by far the best season this year. I think if you have him anything but 1st or 2nd at this point then you’re trolling. It’s not “currently” best player. It’s getting close to 2 seasons worth of data.

By “currently” I mean at this point in their careers. Redrafts are about projection. These guys are 22. Laf and Byfield not building on last year makes it a lot harder to take them now. There’s still arguments for Stutzle, Sanderson, Faber and Jarvis. If you don’t agree then that’s fine, but all these “gotchas” are meaningless right now

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

By “currently” I mean at this point in their careers. Redrafts are about projection. These guys are 22.

No these guys are all 23 or about to turn 23. Which is close to the start of your prime. Saying there’s room for movement for the other players to catch back up is silly because it implies there isn’t still ways for Raymond to improve what he is currently. If you are putting byfield, lafreniere or Jarvis anywhere near Raymond right now then it’s Canadian player bias. Raymond just played Byfield head to head and he was far far more impactful, it wasn’t close.

 

[emptyNedder]

Stutzle/Raymond/Faber
Sanderson/Jarvis

HM for Chinakov--I thought he was ready to break out before the injury. He has a great combination of skating speed and shot speed.

 

[Silky Johnson]

That is offensive to you...?

Come on...

If you scroll through this entire thread, you will find people saying much more offensive things to me this summer..

I got laughed at for saying Raymond is closer to Stutzle then Byfield and Laf are to Raymond,and there seemed to be a common theme on which fanbase was doing it.

So is it petty of me to expose these people, yeah it is...but I am also not only exposing them, but I'm genuinely interested in seeing their top 5 today.

Raymond is on a 92 point pace, clearly having the best year of any 2020 draftee, so I wanna see if sens fans still have overrated Jake Sanderson ahead of him.

I'd take Sanderson over Raymond every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

He is such in impactful player. Think Slavin with better offensive upside.

As a Dman (22YO) he likely has more upside in his game. I think he may well be the concensus best 2020 draftee in 10 years.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Calling out? This is a discussion board, and I politely asked people if their rankings have changed. I didn't use any profanity, didn't troll, didn't make fun of anyone, I simply asked people if their rankings have changed.

It's a message board, where you know, people have discussions...

@RedWingzz what’s your top 5, since you’re dissing everyone else’s lists.

@Pavels Dog what is your top 5?

 

[admiralcadillac]

So what’s your top 5, since you’re dissing everyone else’s lists.

Whoever the wings drafted that year

 

[Regal]

No these guys are all 23 or about to turn 23. Which is close to the start of your prime. Saying there’s room for movement for the other players to catch back up is silly because it implies there isn’t still ways for Raymond to improve what he is currently. If you are putting byfield, lafreniere or Jarvis anywhere near Raymond right now then it’s Canadian player bias. Raymond just played Byfield head to head and he was far far more impactful, it wasn’t close.

It’s silly to think that player progression is linear. Otherwise a player ahead at 22/23 will always be ahead. I agree these guys are entering their primes and projecting too much further becomes more difficult, but you make it seem like there’s a bigger gulf here than there is. Stutzle still has the best year of any of these guys, and was out scoring Raymond a lot of this season before slumping. Sanderson and Faber have shown they can be all situation #1 type defensemen, though Sanderson has taken a slight step back this year. I think these guys are fairly interchangeable in terms of how they’ll end up.

Raymond should probably be above Jarvis, but Jarvis is an high end defensive player and energy guy who was only 5 points pack of Raymond last year. He was arguably better last year, so we’re only looking at Raymond being better the last 50 games. Byfield and Laf make big strides last year and looked to break out this year. They didn’t and I think they’re now firmly behind Raymond unless something changes.

Also, Raymond’s production improvement this year is pretty much all on the PP where Detroit has a pretty high on-ice shooting percentage this year. He’s also been hot lately with 18 points in his last 12. I don’t think it’s a given he’s going to keep pace this year and top 90.

The funny thing is that everyone who’s been critical of these lists assumes ranking Raymond a bit lower than others is a negative shot at Raymond, and never seem to think that maybe it’s because they just rank the others highly. Two people can actually think Raymond is the same level of player, but rank him higher or lower because they disagree on the other players. Going into the year I figured Raymond, while a different style of player, would end up similar in value to a guy like Kyle Connor, but I still had the others ahead based on where I thought they’d end up.

 

[Coffey]

Byfield sucks, can only produce against the Oilers.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

The takes were awful and inexcusable, what’s the purpose of a message board if that can’t be pointed out?

Locked thread but here is your take on young players. We all have bad takes, doesn't mean bumping them to flex is a good idea.

• Jan 2, 2021

Dahlin
Pettersson
Lafreniere
Seider
Heiskanen
Makar
A Svechnikov
Stutzle
Byfield
Q Hughes
Kakko
J Hughes
Dach
Zegras
Raymond

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

It’s silly to think that player progression is linear. Otherwise a player ahead at 22/23 will always be ahead. I agree these guys are entering their primes and projecting too much further becomes more difficult, but you make it seem like there’s a bigger gulf here than there is. Stutzle still has the best year of any of these guys, and was out scoring Raymond a lot of this season before slumping. Sanderson and Faber have shown they can be all situation #1 type defensemen, though Sanderson has taken a slight step back this year. I think these guys are fairly interchangeable in terms of how they’ll end up.

Raymond should probably be above Jarvis, but Jarvis is an high end defensive player and energy guy who was only 5 points pack of Raymond last year. He was arguably better last year, so we’re only looking at Raymond being better the last 50 games. Byfield and Laf make big strides last year and looked to break out this year. They didn’t and I think they’re now firmly behind Raymond unless something changes.

Also, Raymond’s production improvement this year is pretty much all on the PP where Detroit has a pretty high on-ice shooting percentage this year. He’s also been hot lately with 18 points in his last 12. I don’t think it’s a given he’s going to keep pace this year and top 90.

Of course it’s not linear, but this is 5+ years later. It’s getting to the point where it’s much more unlikely that guys like Lafreniere, byfield, Sanderson, jarvis etc develop to be better than Raymond than the latter that Raymond just keeps developing and out pacing them like he has his whole career. As of right now I’d probably still take stutzle over Raymond, but it’s really close and those are the only 2 who have an argument for 1.

It’s also funny how when stutzle goes cold it’s a slump that will get fixed, but when Raymond scores 18 in 12 it’s a hot streak that is unsustainable. That sounds like extreme bias. The red wings had a good powerplay last year, they have a good powerplay this year. I don’t think their PP is unsustainable at all, and it being good coincides with Raymond’s rapid improvement.

Fact of the matter is, this season and last season Raymond has been the best player out of all of them. You would think you’d lean towards he’s just the best player in that draft, rather than other guys could still catch up. Because the trends strongly disagree with you. You hope these other guys can develop further to be as good as stutzle and Raymond are RIGHT NOW, but that also means that stutzle and Raymond can further develop to being better than they are today. Which is just as likely as the other guys developing further.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Locked thread but here is your take on young players. We all have bad takes, doesn't mean bumping them to flex is a good idea.

• Jan 2, 2021

Dahlin
Pettersson
Lafreniere
Seider
Heiskanen
Makar
A Svechnikov
Stutzle
Byfield
Q Hughes
Kakko
J Hughes
Dach
Zegras
Raymond

I have no problem with anyone bumping those kinds of takes, honestly it’s part of why I bother posting online. Sucks that old threads get locked so much which prevents fun bumps.

But also, surely you see the difference between bumping a 4 year old thread and one a few months old? The takes in this thread looked bad 3 months ago and have already aged like milk. It would like saying in september that there’s no chance Rantanen gets traded.

 

[Regal]

Of course it’s not linear, but this is 5+ years later. It’s getting to the point where it’s much more unlikely that guys like Lafreniere, byfield, Sanderson, jarvis etc develop to be better than Raymond than the latter that Raymond just keeps developing and out pacing them like he has his whole career. As of right now I’d probably still take stutzle over Raymond, but it’s really close and those are the only 2 who have an argument for 1.

It’s also funny how when stutzle goes cold it’s a slump that will get fixed, but when Raymond scores 18 in 12 it’s a hot streak that is unsustainable. That sounds like extreme bias. The red wings had a good powerplay last year, they have a good powerplay this year. I don’t think their PP is unsustainable at all, and it being good coincides with Raymond’s rapid improvement.

Fact of the matter is, this season and last season Raymond has been the best player out of all of them. You would think you’d lean towards he’s just the best player in that draft, rather than other guys could still catch up. Because the trends strongly disagree with you.

Again, I believe you’re underrating the other players to the point where you think there’s a bigger gap than there has been. I believe Jarvis, Sanderson and Faber were all better last year, so your logic that Raymond has always been ahead and will always be ahead doesn’t follow based on my evaluations. You can disagree with those evaluations, but your trends don’t follow mine. Byfield and Laf I agree with.

As for Stutzle, you're missing the point. I didn’t say Stutzle will definitely pick it up, just that the trends in Raymond’s favour between them are quite recent.

Raymond is an excellent PP player and the Wings were good on it last year, but he had 16 PP points last year and already has 25 this year. The Wings are shooting 20.5% with Raymond on the ice on the PP, while they shot 12.5% with him on the ice on the PP last year. Even the Oilers in ‘23 didn’t shoot 20% for the season on the PP. In all likelihood, he won’t end the year with 41 PP points like he’s pacing for. He’s tied for 2nd in the league currently.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

I have no problem with anyone bumping those kinds of takes, honestly it’s part of why I bother posting online. Sucks that old threads get locked so much which prevents fun bumps.

But also, surely you see the difference between bumping a 4 year old thread and one a few months old? The takes in this thread looked bad 3 months ago and have already aged like milk. It would like saying in september that there’s no chance Rantanen gets traded.

I've seen enough of your posts that I knew you'd have some kind of bad take and that you'd be able to handle having it pointed out.

I'd be fine with it as well if it wasn't against the rules of the site. I have way too many bad takes on here to hide and if someone points them out, I can admit I was wrong.

In fact at one point I made a thread about bad takes that you've (Not you specifically) have had on this site and it was hilarious.

 

[MasterMatt25]

1. Stutzle
2. Raymond
3. Sanderson
4. Jarvis
5. Faber