Draft 2020 Draft & Undrafted Free Agent Thread: Part V

[Trxjw]

Virtanen is one of those guys who shows flashes of what he could be, and has been teasing that payoff for a number of years.

Even I can’t help but feel that he has a shot to be someone who provides a really good payoff for his second or third NHL team.

Based on how Miller has blossomed with Vancouver, it would be only fair if Virtanen did the same with us.

The question with Virtanen is whether he's a Miller-type or a Del Zotto type. Del Zotto seemed more interested in being a celebrity in certain circles than a hockey player. Miller is just a kid who didn't dedicate himself the way he should and needed a couple kicks in the ass. Not to say Del Zotto didn't carve out a nice career but he never really sniffed his potential.

 

[Trxjw]

I've actually been advocating for a Sam Bennett trade for a few seasons now. I do think NYR could pick him up with a Georgiev trade.... 1 for 1. Think he'd play phenomenal hockey under Quinn and could push Howden to the press box.

I've been there with you on Bennett but we might've missed the boat. I don't normally put a huge amount of stock into small playoff samples, but for a team that looks like it might get bounced in round 1 again I have a hard time seeing them wanting to deal a guy who really stepped up again.

 

[nyr2k2]

Ryan Shea is about to sign with Dallas....

Bummer, thought he would've been a good get for the Rangers.

The two guys I wanted were teammates, and also teammates of Riley Hughes. Ryan Shea I thought was a good bet to be a John Moore-type. The other guy I mentioned was Matt Filipe. He just signed with Boston, though. He looked like a good bottom-six prospect or a good organizational depth piece.

Two other guys I'd kick the tires on. Ryan Zuhlsdorf, who I've seen a lot over the years watching Minnesota. He looks more like organizational depth but he plays a simple, stay-at-home game and could become a solid 6/7 defensive defenseman. The other is Karlis Cukste. Seen him a lot watching Morgan Barron/ECAC. He skates well and is big, strong. He was a decent point producer but he also looks like he'll be best as a defensively-focused defender.

I just did a Google search and it doesn't sound like Zuhlsdorf is going anywhere. I would definitely give him an AHL deal. Cukste I would even consider for an ELC, but it sounds like he's been practicing with Riga (he's Latvian) and will sign there.

 

[howztheglass]

When I think generational talent I'm thinking Crosby and Ovechkin.

I agree that the term is overused. I would add McDavid to your list and leave it there. I have seen some say Matthews and Eichel are generational which I disagree with.

I have to agree with the above--although Eichel has to be or is getting close. He's still young playing on a team with decent but not great linemates--putting mast amount of points ( almost a point a game ). The face of the team and if not for Josh Allen would most likely be the face of Buffalo--we all know no one likes hockey except us crazy ass fans. Eichel is the team without him the team would be the Pittsburg Pirates of Hockey.

If Eichel was playing in NY him and breadman would be all around the city on billboards, Buses you get the point--not saying he coming to the Rangers just making an example.

Time will tell he has a chance maybe a step below the rest in Crosby/ OV/McDavid. I can see why some would say he's not generational talent--doesn't score as many goals as the rest he can't take his team to the playoffs all by himself--but he carries the team on his back each night and some of these issues are a bi-product of the team.

In the end maybe he falls just short of the cut--as the cut is the best of the best in the world.

 

[mas0764]

Isn’t this NHLe regarded as a flawed statistic?

Would be exceedingly disappointing if Lafreniere is only Matthew Tkachuk or Taylor Hall.

 

[mas0764]

I think that whatever number he picks he will own and make his. This is the first time in our lifetimes we are drafting someone of who we could realistically say that, if everything goes according to plan, his number will go up in the rafters.

I felt that way about Kakko though.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Would be exceedingly disappointing if Lafreniere is only Matthew Tkachuk or Taylor Hall.

Tkachuk is a monster player and Hall's issues have all been staying on the ice.

But my understanding is that this model is based off of production and then adjusted for league/season. It doesn't take into account who the players are playing with (both Hall and Tkachuk played on memorial cup winning stacked teams in their draft year) so yeah, may be selling Lafreniere a little short.

 

[RangersFan1994]

 

[True Blue]

Fair enough, so Kreider's 52 points means he was one of the worst producing top line forwards, but a top line forward nonetheless.

Oh, boy. His 52 points put him 20th among all LWs. Confidence building question: How many top line left wings are there in the NHL?

To wit, that is one point behind Jaime Benn and two behind Evander Kane. Not really players whom you associate with terms of "worst producing top line forwards"

Think this kinda makes the argument that a good team would want this type of player on the second line, but sure. Of course that's production alone, I think there are other advanced stats that say Kreider performs like a mid level first liner.

I don't know of any statistic aside from ones own whims that tell you he is not a legit first liner.

Fine by me... I'll pass on Holloway. But the Rangers need second liners and Kirk Maltbys eventually, since Buch and Strome are probably not long for the roster.

They are gone based on what and when?

Think that most GMs would jump on Holloway with the second Ranger pick.

 

[RangersFan1994]

They tried that a decade ago. Didn't work. You don't target prospects for their physicality.

so why was Tom Wilson and Lawson Crouse both drafted in the 1st round?

 

[True Blue]

Yeah, its all very fungible in terms of role and minutes. My overall point is that 52 points is not what you want one of your top 3 scorers to have in today's league, and you probably can't really afford to be paying a 52 point scorer big money if he's gonna be more like your 5th or 6th best point producer.

It gets you to mid tear of players that play his position. So there's that.

 

[Edge]

Tkachuk is a monster player and Hall's issues have all been staying on the ice.

But my understanding is that this model is based off of production and then adjusted for league/season. It doesn't take into account who the players are playing with (both Hall and Tkachuk played on memorial cup winning stacked teams in their draft year) so yeah, may be selling Lafreniere a little short.

Those London Knights teams were like the OHL of the 2019 US Development Program Team --- for like a decade.

 

[duhmetreE]

Isn’t this NHLe regarded as a flawed statistic?

He doesn't have a 'generational talent' profile? Is he using pre-draft stats to determine who's generational?

Auston Matthews is not generational. AO is generational.... there's a difference.

Lafreniere is on MacKinnon, Matthews or Kane tier IMO. No, they're not Crosby, McDavid or AO... but they're still some of the best in the league.

edit- added Matthews because people couldn't read between the lines

 

[bobbop]

I kinda liked Lecavalier and Hall with no 4. Boeser with 6 isn't bad either.

Jean Beliveau. Le Gros Bill

 

[Raspewtin]

He doesn't have a 'generational talent' profile? Is he using pre-draft stats to determine who's generational?

Auston Matthews is not generational. AO is generational.... there's a difference.

Lafreniere is on MacKinnon or Kane tier IMO. No, they're not Crosby, McDavid or AO... but they're still some of the best in the league.

so.........you're in complete agreement with the post?

 

[mas0764]

To wit, that is one point behind Jaime Benn and two behind Evander Kane. Not really players whom you associate with terms of "worst producing top line forwards"

No, you don't associate Jamie Benn with "worst producing top line forward," but mostly because prior to that 53 point season he had put up years of 79, 69, 89, 87 and 79 points, consecutively.

Kreider? 37, 53, 43, 46, 37.

53 points is a down year for Benn and 52 points is an up year for Kreider.

I don't know of any statistic aside from ones own whims that tell you he is not a legit first liner.

Define "legit." I'll say at 52 points he's a low-mid level first liner (the scary part about that is, he's usually not at 52 points).

For my tastes he'd be more of a secondary scorer; fortunately for the Rangers, they now have proper wingers ahead of him or soon to be ahead of him on the depth chart.

Unfortunately for the Rangers Kreider is overpaid for the role he will likely inhabit well before that contract ends.

They are gone based on what and when?

Based on Kakko, Lafreniere, Kravtsov, Chytil and probably additional prospects passing them in quality relatively soon.

If you think Buch and Strome are both getting long term contracts, you are just being fantastical.

Think that most GMs would jump on Holloway with the second Ranger pick.

We don't really know what most GMs think or why they think that way.

 

[duhmetreE]

so.........you're in complete agreement with the post?

he's calling Matthews generational. Lafreiniere is in the same tier as Matthews.
He has Tkachuk pictured next to him. They are not in the same tier

So.................................. no. I'm not agreeing with the whole post

 

[Joey Bones]

I would love Virtanen too. Maybe he is a bit too similar to Gauthier in terms of role in the lineup for him to be an optimal add, but physically he can match anyone currently in the league and he seems like a player that only could benefit from a change of scenery and fresh start.

I feel Gauthier could be similar to Virtanen, but with less off-ice issues and a cheaper contract. If NYR can find guys like that, then so be it.

 

[True Blue]

Define "legit." I'll say at 52 points he's a low-mid level first liner (the scary part about that is, he's usually not at 52 points).

Legit. As in produces top line production. That is pretty legit. As in no matter how you slice and dice it, top line production. Debated where in the bell curve, sure. But non-debateable that it is top line production.

For my tastes he'd be more of a secondary scorer; fortunately for the Rangers, they now have proper wingers ahead of him or soon to be ahead of him on the depth chart.

Isn't that what he is for the Rangers? Seems to be there is another left wing that is ahead of him on the depth charts.

Unfortunately for the Rangers Kreider is overpaid for the role he will likely inhabit well before that contract ends.

Maybe. But if he slides down to the third line in the last several years of his deal, then it is money well spent. And if circumstances cause him to slide down earlier and he is still productive (being the best net front presence in the NHL means something) then it is still money well spent.

Based on Kakko, Lafreniere, Kravtsov, Chytil and probably additional prospects passing them in quality relatively soon.

Umm...Kravstov and Chytil currently should not be mentioned in the same breath as Kreider. Let alone some sort of fantastical theory that they will pass him "soon". Kakko plays the opposite side so there is that factor. And can he first reach 40 points? Lafreniere, we expect this to happen. But can he first step a toe onto NHL ice before this is being discussed as an issue?

If you think Buch and Strome are both getting long term contracts, you are just being fantastical.

I didn't say that. But first of all, the length of time that they can spend here can vary. They may well be here for far longer than you believe.

We don't really know what most GMs think or why they think that way.

No, but between the various insiders here and folks that know prospects far, far better than you and I, my suspicion is that they view it far differently than you .

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I felt that way about Kakko though.

And that still might happen. Assuming he'll be here for a decade+, if the Rangers win a Cup or two, and he reaches his potential it's not out of the question. Someone in a FB group was comparing Kakko's rookie season to that of Toews (D+2) and Malkin (D+3) without realizing they're different years. Those two are probably future HHOFers, with the chance of having their numbers up in the rafters for their teams.

Lafreniere and Kakko could easily achieve the same, although it's not a given. But if you had to say who would be the closest to reaching that, on draft day, it's those 2 in our franchise history.

Speaking of retired numbers, time to raise Park's name to the rafters