2020-2021 St. Louis Blues: Well, ****.

[Stupendous Yappi]

Let's clarify this: there's two versions of cynical:

1 - the really cynical version, which I don't even buy (but I'm sure someone already has)
2 - the version which I keep talking about: all the moves were at least non-accidental

Did negotiations from last time play a factor? Possibly. We don't know.. Again, I keep going back to the general acknowledgment that neither side had exchanged numbers in the offseason and that Armstrong didn't want to talk deal in even a very broad framework. The club can easily say look, we don't think he's going to be good for that many years - but if that's the case, why then go from offering 5x7 to offering 8x8? Going out to 8x8 if he already believes those last 2-3 years are likely to be terrible runs counter to the ongoing narrative that Armstrong makes business decisions, hockey decisions, he doesn't let emotion play into things.

But if he already anticipated issues with Pietrangelo's negotiations and had an idea what Pietrangelo was going to ask for and was unwilling to go there, then the trade-and-sign for Faulk was a clearly intentional move. It was the signal that "I'm not paying what Alex wants, I'll go find someone else to be his replacement on terms that I want" and so everything else that happened was performative theater to look like he wanted Pietrangelo back but was never going to go far enough to make it happen, knowing where the line had been drawn.

I see the distinction. I have no problem acknowledging that the Faulk moves were deliberate...I think that’s almost self-evident.

It’s just as easy for me to conclude that Pietro has determined he was moving on regardless of all else, and despite any contract terms, as it is to conclude that Armstrong’s group decided to never engage with Pietro in good faith. Easier even, since Pietro’s motives there would make a lot more sense to me, even if they’re bad PR for him if the truth is known.

Do you think there is a version where they are in cahoots? Pietro openly let Doug know, “I think the next stage of my career needs to be elsewhere because ________. I appreciate everything you’ve done for me, but I’m going to look outside.” They have this exchange early in the process. Armstrong proceeds accordingly, moves to get Faulk, still tried to engage with Pietro knowing he would have to change his mind. He didn’t. They both understand how the PR works and are genuinely friendly enough to not want to paint it as a divorce in the media. But as you said, much of the negotiation was kabuki theater.

Armstrong’s moves make a lot more sense if he KNEW whether from his side’s position or from an exchange with Pietro, that they weren’t going to agree to a deal. I don’t really sense any acrimony between them, as much as fans have tried to vilify one side or the other. It’s possible this was just a respectful parting of the ways.

In this version, I can make more sense out of Armstrong’s comment that he would explain after he doesn’t sign (I’m paraphrasing) and Pietro’s reaction on the bench in the bubble. They both acted like they knew the negotiation was over a long time before the deadline or the fans knew it was over.

 

[Majorityof1]

I see the distinction. I have no problem acknowledging that the Faulk moves were deliberate...I think that’s almost self-evident.

It’s just as easy for me to conclude that Pietro has determined he was moving on regardless of all else, and despite any contract terms, as it is to conclude that Armstrong’s group decided to never engage with Pietro in good faith. Easier even, since Pietro’s motives there would make a lot more sense to me, even if they’re bad PR for him if the truth is known.

Do you think there is a version where they are in cahoots? Pietro openly let Doug know, “I think the next stage of my career needs to be elsewhere because ________. I appreciate everything you’ve done for me, but I’m going to look outside.” They have this exchange early in the process. Armstrong proceeds accordingly, moves to get Faulk, still tried to engage with Pietro knowing he would have to change his mind. He didn’t. They both understand how the PR works and are genuinely friendly enough to not want to paint it as a divorce in the media. But as you said, much of the negotiation was kabuki theater.

Armstrong’s moves make a lot more sense if he KNEW whether from his side’s position or from an exchange with Pietro, that they weren’t going to agree to a deal. I don’t really sense any acrimony between them, as much as fans have tried to vilify one side or the other. It’s possible this was just a respectful parting of the ways.

In this version, I can make more sense out of Armstrong’s comment that he would explain after he doesn’t sign (I’m paraphrasing) and Pietro’s reaction on the bench in the bubble. They both acted like they knew the negotiation was over a long time before the deadline or the fans knew it was over.

If Pietrangelo unilaterally said, I am not coming back, what is Armstrong's motivation to try to sign him last minute? His last ditch attempts to sign him only make him look worse for not signing him and not trying sooner. The idea of both sides putting on a show for each others behalf seems strange when there would have to be some level of antagonism to let it reach a point where either party said "No matter what the terms, I am not doing a deal with you."

To me, the most likely scenario is that Armstrong knew Pietrangelo had earned a big contract. He started playing hardball immediately to lessen the size of that contract. It backfired because what Petro really wanted was the one thing Armstrong wouldn't give. That version makes sense, fits the facts, fits both sides motivations. It is far less salacious though. Neither side made an unambiguously bad move.

If Petro said, "F--- the Blues", we can paint him as the bad guy and go looking for the drama. If Armstrong said "F--- Petro" we can paint him as a wholly incompetent GM. With my theory, there is a whole discussion to be had about the value of NMC and bonus structures, who deserves them, how crippling they can be vs how necessary they are. That's a discussion where you can decide one side or the other could have made a mistake, but neither side is wholly evil/incompetent. It requires a level of nuance of discussion that 90% of the board isn't capable or interested in (NOT referring to you Yappi, you are quite capable and willing).

 

[67Blues]

If Pietrangelo unilaterally said, I am not coming back, what is Armstrong's motivation to try to sign him last minute? His last ditch attempts to sign him only make him look worse for not signing him and not trying sooner. The idea of both sides putting on a show for each others behalf seems strange when there would have to be some level of antagonism to let it reach a point where either party said "No matter what the terms, I am not doing a deal with you."

To me, the most likely scenario is that Armstrong knew Pietrangelo had earned a big contract. He started playing hardball immediately to lessen the size of that contract. It backfired because what Petro really wanted was the one thing Armstrong wouldn't give. That version makes sense, fits the facts, fits both sides motivations. It is far less salacious though. Neither side made an unambiguously bad move.

If Petro said, "F--- the Blues", we can paint him as the bad guy and go looking for the drama. If Armstrong said "F--- Petro" we can paint him as a wholly incompetent GM. With my theory, there is a whole discussion to be had about the value of NMC and bonus structures, who deserves them, how crippling they can be vs how necessary they are. That's a discussion where you can decide one side or the other could have made a mistake, but neither side is wholly evil/incompetent. It requires a level of nuance of discussion that 90% of the board isn't capable or interested in (NOT referring to you Yappi, you are quite capable and willing).

There are two distinct timelines that have to be thought of. Coming off of winning the Cup, I'm sure that Petro went in to Army and said, "Look, I just brought this franchise its first Cup ever and I deserve an extension that is commensurate with being a top 5 Cup winning defenseman". He probably was looking for a deal of $11.5m-12m/8. At the time, it was doable with the cap going up another $3-4m but, if you are Army, you have to keep in mind that Petro had a great second half and playoffs, but he was rumored to be on the block at Christmas of 2018. So, Army brings in Faulk on a contract that, lets face it, if his play is on par with what it was in Carolina, is decent value. Army can let the season play out, see if Petro is worth that pricey contract and move on it if warranted.

Then Covid hits. The league changes in a heartbeat. Flat salary cap, short season, no fans. Now the negotiations take on a whole new meaning. Both sides are entrenched in their values, and they try to meet in the middle. Based on the rumored flat cap for 3 years, Armstrong has to look at the team in an entirely different light. Are we going to have fans at the games and help stop the revenue bleeding for the owners? Petro has to look at his reduced AAV and try to protect himself against a possible lockout or shortened season through contract stipulations. In the end, each side had to decide what is best for them going forward and that is what happened. I can't blame either.

Take away Covid and this conversation looks entirely different and truthfully, probably doesn't even happen. If Faulk actually played to his potential, this conversation wouldn't be so derisive. Sadly, a lot of things that are bad had to line up for this to happen, and it appears, in typical Blues fashion, all the bad things did.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

If Pietrangelo unilaterally said, I am not coming back, what is Armstrong's motivation to try to sign him last minute? His last ditch attempts to sign him only make him look worse for not signing him and not trying sooner. The idea of both sides putting on a show for each others behalf seems strange when there would have to be some level of antagonism to let it reach a point where either party said "No matter what the terms, I am not doing a deal with you."

To me, the most likely scenario is that Armstrong knew Pietrangelo had earned a big contract. He started playing hardball immediately to lessen the size of that contract. It backfired because what Petro really wanted was the one thing Armstrong wouldn't give. That version makes sense, fits the facts, fits both sides motivations. It is far less salacious though. Neither side made an unambiguously bad move.

If Petro said, "F--- the Blues", we can paint him as the bad guy and go looking for the drama. If Armstrong said "F--- Petro" we can paint him as a wholly incompetent GM. With my theory, there is a whole discussion to be had about the value of NMC and bonus structures, who deserves them, how crippling they can be vs how necessary they are. That's a discussion where you can decide one side or the other could have made a mistake, but neither side is wholly evil/incompetent. It requires a level of nuance of discussion that 90% of the board isn't capable or interested in (NOT referring to you Yappi, you are quite capable and willing).

Your one scenario assume an antagonism between them which doesn’t necessarily have to be there. They could be friendly, and Pietro simply wants a different kind of experience...maybe doesn’t want to be a captain any more or something. Armstrong would still hope for something to change, but acts for the more likely eventuality of Pietro leaving. Nobody is saying ‘screw you’ to anyone. They circle back and Armstrong improves his offer in the chance that Pietro has a change of heart. They’re meeting together out of respect for each other and the respect for what they’d accomplished together. Calling it kabuki theater may be an exaggeration. It was still a good faith attempt, but one with no real optimism.

I’m not convinced this is what happened, but it’s a scenario that has received no discussion on this board. It’s worth considering.

I tend to agree more with your view that things kind of deteriorated piecemeal and in no small part because of the twin developments of 1) the pandemic and cap impact and 2) Faulk’s disappointing performance and loss of trade value.

 

[Blueline2757]

The Blues teased their reverse retro jerseys. I don't like the red and it hurts my eyes but I'll probably still buy one

 

[Tvillewr419]

The Blues teased their reverse retro jerseys. I don't like the red and it hurts my eyes but I'll probably still buy one

i have started collecting team/blank jerseys cuz I have terrible luck with players lol

I think this is gunna be cool, a lot of these jersey appear to be very good looking, def a sales/revenue drive by the teams and league which I’ll support too

 

[Celtic Note]

The Blues teased their reverse retro jerseys. I don't like the red and it hurts my eyes but I'll probably still buy one

So the clown jerseys will be getting even worse.

 

[Blueline2757]

i have started collecting team/blank jerseys cuz I have terrible luck with players lol

I think this is gunna be cool, a lot of these jersey appear to be very good looking, def a sales/revenue drive by the teams and league which I’ll support too

Yup, My next jersey purchase will be a blank jersey cause I have a Bouwmeester and a Pietrangelo jersey, well both of them are no longer on the team. And yes the reverse retro jerseys are just a marketing gimmick to milk money and it's doing it's job as I'll be purchasing one

 

[Brockon]

Yup, My next jersey purchase will be a blank jersey cause I have a Bouwmeester and a Pietrangelo jersey, well both of them are no longer on the team. And yes the reverse retro jerseys are just a marketing gimmick to milk money and it's doing it's job as I'll be purchasing one

I think the only player jersey I feel safe buying is a Thomas jersey - that's on the docket once I finish my probation and start collecting a full wage instead of the 60% trainee rate I'm making right now.

That'll be for the 2021-22 season debut.

 

[Blueline2757]

I think the only player jersey I feel safe buying is a Thomas jersey - that's on the docket once I finish my probation and start collecting a full wage instead of the 60% trainee rate I'm making right now.

That'll be for the 2021-22 season debut.

I've thought about getting a Thomas jersey and I still might.

 

[Kreegz2]

I only buy jerseys of players I enjoyed watching in my childhood in the 90s and early 2000s: Pronger, MacInnis, Turgeon, Demitra, Twist, Chase, and Hull. I guess I'm weird.

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

WhY dOeS a TeAm CaLlEd ThE bLuEs HaVe A rEd JeRsEy

 

[Brockon]

WhY dOeS a TeAm CaLlEd ThE bLuEs HaVe A rEd JeRsEy

Obviously we're having an identity crisis after losing Petro. Watch for the front office to call Hitch and offer him back his old job!

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I call BS on this. It's always about the money. Anything else is misdirection from Petro camp.

Glad you have insight into Pietrangelo's mind. In the meantime, the rest of us will wait for real details to come out.

We don't know exactly what they discussed after winning Cup, but is reasonable to assume that even if they didn't "discuss numbers" it is likely that Petro camp indicated they wanted EK or DD money, or just below. This appears to be impetus for all that followed.

It is reasonable to assume ... it is likely.

Ok, that's your speculation. When you find something showing Pietrangelo was wanting something in the $11M range or so, let us all know. Trust me, you'll be the first one to stumble across it.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Your one scenario assume an antagonism between them which doesn’t necessarily have to be there. They could be friendly, and Pietro simply wants a different kind of experience...maybe doesn’t want to be a captain any more or something. Armstrong would still hope for something to change, but acts for the more likely eventuality of Pietro leaving. Nobody is saying ‘screw you’ to anyone. They circle back and Armstrong improves his offer in the chance that Pietro has a change of heart. They’re meeting together out of respect for each other and the respect for what they’d accomplished together. Calling it kabuki theater may be an exaggeration. It was still a good faith attempt, but one with no real optimism.

I’m not convinced this is what happened, but it’s a scenario that has received no discussion on this board. It’s worth considering.

I tend to agree more with your view that things kind of deteriorated piecemeal and in no small part because of the twin developments of 1) the pandemic and cap impact and 2) Faulk’s disappointing performance and loss of trade value.

Is it a possible scenario? Yeah, sure - it's possible. Likely? I don't think so. I suspect in that scenario, Armstrong realizes Pietrangelo is walking and there's no retaining him and so he's getting shopped around the league. Not I'll keep him around for a year for sentimental reasons, as a favor for what he's done. Straight-up this is a business, I'm moving him for pieces that will keep this team at the top of the league - even with the team coming off a Cup and being a favorite (even if not the top favorite) to win again in 2020. There's no evidence of that having happened.

Of course, you could also make the point that if Armstrong knew in the summer of '19 he wasn't keeping Pietrangelo, he would have been shopping him then and there's no evidence of it happening. So ... ?

The point above about COVID having wrecked a lot of plans everywhere is on-point. If it never happens and the playoffs do whatever they do and the cap for the upcoming season is $85 million or so, does it change things? We'll never know, and all of the guessing we all do will never conclusively answer the question. Maybe Armstrong is totally comfortably going to $9M per, even $9.5M per. Maybe Pietrangelo is asking for $10.5M per. Maybe they get a deal done, maybe they don't. When someone figures out how to go back in time and run alternate scenarios, we'll play out some permutations and see what happens.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

TBH, I can't get excited about '20-21 until I know when '20-21 is going to start. And even after that, I don't know that I can get excited about it while we have a pandemic raging across the nation unchecked. I want the season to start and go to the end in one smooth flow, not have it disjointed across weeks and weeks because this team had an outbreak, so they couldn't play for 2-3 weeks and it impacted all these other teams x however many times that happens.

Honestly, I'm kind of at the point where if we scrubbed '20-21 to get the entire world right and we could go straight into '21-22 normally, I'd take it.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Is it a possible scenario? Yeah, sure - it's possible. Likely? I don't think so. I suspect in that scenario, Armstrong realizes Pietrangelo is walking and there's no retaining him and so he's getting shopped around the league. Not I'll keep him around for a year for sentimental reasons, as a favor for what he's done. Straight-up this is a business, I'm moving him for pieces that will keep this team at the top of the league - even with the team coming off a Cup and being a favorite (even if not the top favorite) to win again in 2020. There's no evidence of that having happened.

Of course, you could also make the point that if Armstrong knew in the summer of '19 he wasn't keeping Pietrangelo, he would have been shopping him then and there's no evidence of it happening. So ... ?

The point above about COVID having wrecked a lot of plans everywhere is on-point. If it never happens and the playoffs do whatever they do and the cap for the upcoming season is $85 million or so, does it change things? We'll never know, and all of the guessing we all do will never conclusively answer the question. Maybe Armstrong is totally comfortably going to $9M per, even $9.5M per. Maybe Pietrangelo is asking for $10.5M per. Maybe they get a deal done, maybe they don't. When someone figures out how to go back in time and run alternate scenarios, we'll play out some permutations and see what happens.

It doesn’t make sense to shop him around the league when you are trying to win a Cup and first in the conference. Prior to that, with how discreetly Armstrong approached these things, it would be hard to know if he’d tried and failed. But I tend to think he’d just keep him knowing it was only one year as the best chance at another Cup over whatever return he might get. I don’t think any kind of trade would make sense when you view yourself as a top contender.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

It doesn’t make sense to shop him around the league when you are trying to win a Cup and first in the conference. Prior to that, with how discreetly Armstrong approached these things, it would be hard to know if he’d tried and failed. But I tend to think he’d just keep him knowing it was only one year as the best chance at another Cup over whatever return he might get. I don’t think any kind of trade would make sense when you view yourself as a top contender.

Not saying I'm buying the idea that Armstrong would really have shopped him, but if we're spitballing ideas it doesn't make any less sense than some stuff we've seen offered. You're right, if he had been shopping him it's really unlikely we'd know. [Well, we could know - but it wouldn't come from within the Blues organization; it would come from someone elsewhere, like we know about Shattenkirk having been offered around.]

There's just too many missing pieces to explain what we really know and tie it into any version of what really happened - which is why we've got 127 different ideas on how things went down and why.

 

[Blueline2757]

I found this on Twitter. It's an interview with ROR. Topics include what happened in the bubble, Petro's impact on the team and in the locker room, What it would mean for him to be captain. It's a good listen.

 

[Blueline2757]

TBH, I can't get excited about '20-21 until I know when '20-21 is going to start. And even after that, I don't know that I can get excited about it while we have a pandemic raging across the nation unchecked. I want the season to start and go to the end in one smooth flow, not have it disjointed across weeks and weeks because this team had an outbreak, so they couldn't play for 2-3 weeks and it impacted all these other teams x however many times that happens.

Honestly, I'm kind of at the point where if we scrubbed '20-21 to get the entire world right and we could go straight into '21-22 normally, I'd take it.

I agree as much as it would suck to go a year without hockey I'd rather be safe and head into 2021-22 with some normalcy but the NHL can't afford to loose a season as the league and teams are already suffering from loss of revenue, so as the saying goes dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

 

[SaintLouHaintBlue]

Could the NHL pull off some sort of compromise.. something that maybe isn't necessarily an official season or shortened season, but just enough to get exposure until things can get off the ground?

 

[The Note]

Nothing we didn't really already know. Pretty horrendous, IMO.

 

[Blueline2757]

Nothing we didn't really already know. Pretty horrendous, IMO.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

At least 2020 can't get much worse for the Blues, right?

 

[Ted Hoffman]

"But Ted, can't you say something positive about these jerseys?"

Yeah ... they didn't decide to try and resurrect the pajama tops as an actual jersey.
Yeah ... they didn't decide to try and resurrect the pajama tops as an actual jersey with gold the prominent color.
Yeah ... those who are red colorblind won't see these.