2019 Draft Discussion

[KINGS17]

Tankfully, St-Lose-is won! But that DAMNED Chicago Black Hawks team.

I know how you are feeling. The Hawks fans don't deserve it the way we do as fans, who have never had their team get a #1 overall, especially after being the founding fathers of the stupid 8-year $80M+ contract. The Pittsburgh and Edmonton fans sure as hell don't deserve it.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Except the only important picks are those that you cant really acquire without severe overpayment. Guys like shore, andreoff, king, nolan...all guys that are a dime a dozen. Imo drafting quality top 6 or top 4 dmen is way better than just saying 2 guys played more than a season...

Again I dont think it's a good metric to use.

Agreed, I did say it was the quick method lol

 

[ChicagoBullsFan]

I think Kakko would be a great addition too. Finland have produced a lot of good young players recently.

Kakko is excellent prospect and better than Puljujärvi was in Kakko's age.
But which-one Kings will take if GM Blake and other scouts are high on Hughes but Ruuttu wants Kakko.
La Kings can't take both without extra TOP3 lottery pick.

 

[KopitarFAN]

Kakko is excellent prospect and better than Puljujärvi was in Kakko's age.
But which-one Kings will take if GM Blake and other scouts are high on Hughes but Ruuttu wants Kakko.
La Kings can't take both without extra TOP3 lottery pick.

Whoever is picking 1st is taking Hughes, the debate begins at #2.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Frankly if you remove the 2011 Draft from TBL and call them "Los Angeles Kings" and instead of Stevie Y pretend it's Doug Goodness from somewhere in Canada the hero worship stops.

I've often used that example because people here frequently refer to them as the holy grail but it's simply an example of a completely different vision and philosophy.

People here often complain about the lack of impact top sixers drafted and that's a fair complaint but the caveat is that the organizations vision was to pick up solid depth players for the right era--which they nailed at a better rate than the rest of the NHL. Yes, it matters if that pick is Dwight King, but when you already have your top six set up, why would you complain that the bottom six is getting filled with complements? We ran people the f*** over with a humongous homegrown team that other team writers absolutely admired, calling them the gold standard of drafting and development, noting how everyone was homegrown, pointing out the values we've gotten out of even SEVENTH round picks.

I think there are legitimate criticisms with results and vision especially recently but they need context and going 'lol Kings drafting has scuked for a decade' is just mouthbreather internet outrage that's unsupportable.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

That’s great that we’re looking back at the success of how they drafted a decade ago as opposed to the more recent years that you want to choose to ignore, which is a big reason why this team has been set back by a number of years, coupled with their trading of high picks and their misses or trades of 2nd rounders.

Every f***ing team in the league can claim to have drafted an Andreoff or Shore. Hanging your hat on those names as successful picks is just lowering standards. Not long ago some of you were lauding LaDue as one of those great finds at the draft.

They haven’t hit on a Martinez or Voynov or stumbled on a Muzzin or Jones like UFA prospect in a long while. I have more hope with the prospects they’ve been accumulating since 2017, but before that? A whole lot of nothing.

 

[DoktorJeep]

Frankly if you remove the 2011 Draft from TBL and call them "Los Angeles Kings" and instead of Stevie Y pretend it's Doug Goodness from somewhere in Canada the hero worship stops.

I've often used that example because people here frequently refer to them as the holy grail but it's simply an example of a completely different vision and philosophy.

People here often complain about the lack of impact top sixers drafted and that's a fair complaint but the caveat is that the organizations vision was to pick up solid depth players for the right era--which they nailed at a better rate than the rest of the NHL. Yes, it matters if that pick is Dwight King, but when you already have your top six set up, why would you complain that the bottom six is getting filled with complements? We ran people the **** over with a humongous homegrown team that other team writers absolutely admired, calling them the gold standard of drafting and development, noting how everyone was homegrown, pointing out the values we've gotten out of even SEVENTH round picks.

I think there are legitimate criticisms with results and vision especially recently but they need context and going 'lol Kings drafting has scuked for a decade' is just mouthbreather internet outrage that's unsupportable.

Scoring depth has been an organizational issue since the last rebuild ended. They should have used the draft more / better to address that.

 

[KingsOfCali25]

That’s great that we’re looking back at the success of how they drafted a decade ago as opposed to the more recent years that you want to choose to ignore, which is a big reason why this team has been set back by a number of years, coupled with their trading of high picks and their misses or trades of 2nd rounders.

Every ****ing team in the league can claim to have drafted an Andreoff or Shore. Hanging your hat on those names as successful picks is just lowering standards. Not long ago some of you were lauding LaDue as one of those great finds at the draft.

They haven’t hit on a Martinez or Voynov or stumbled on a Muzzin or Jones like UFA prospect in a long while. I have more hope with the prospects they’ve been accumulating since 2017, but before that? A whole lot of nothing.

Sorry but wrong.

Alex Iafallo and Cal Peterson say other wise about Undrafted Free agents. And also if you want to bring up Voynov or Martinez...you can look to Clague and LaDue for those guys.

Both Clague and LaDue are on the same path as both Voynov and Martinez were.

Voynov was a 1st round pick that fell to the 2nd round due to the Russian factor and took 3 years to get time with the Kings. Clague was rated as a 1st round pick that fell to the 2nd round and will probably take 3 years post draft to make it in the NHL.

Martinez was a 4th round pick that stayed in college and came out as an older prospect (25). Took him 3 seasons to get some game in the NHL. LaDue was a 6th round pick that stayed in college and came out as an older prospect (24). It has only taken him 2 seasons to get NHL games.

So for all that negativity...our prospects are on the same path as others have gone before. The problem is that our core is not as young as was the case with the previous prospect group. Meaning that the new prospects are relied upon more than previously. Which is not the case for those prospects. They need time to develop and the Kings need them to produce now as the core slows down.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Every ****ing team in the league can claim to have drafted an Andreoff or Shore. Hanging your hat on those names as successful picks is just lowering standards. Not long ago some of you were lauding LaDue as one of those great finds at the draft.

1. No, this is a false equivalency, but I get the feeling you know that.

2. Sadly, that's also totally wrong, as lots of other teams have had even more issues landing simply consistent NHLers. Yes, the Martinez's of the world may be 'boring' successful draft picks, but I know you like to continually bang the 'impact player' drum, of which the 'hit' chance is small on ANY team. Minimizing our draft success to "NO success" is completely dishonest. You can provide an honest critique without that.

NOw at this point yeah we certainly NEED more than "Just NHLers" but you can't argue against the drafts fitting the vision and the quantity of NHL players we got from minimal number of picks, particularly high picks.

Sorry but wrong.

Alex Iafallo and Cal Peterson say other wise about Undrafted Free agents. And also if you want to bring up Voynov or Martinez...you can look to Clague and LaDue for those guys.

And if we're just talking about current roster, Matt Luff as well.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It’s laughable you guys still think LaDue is going to be another Martinez or even a regular NHL defenseman. He struggles to stay in the lineup on a horrible blueline. And I credited Martinez as being a solid pick. Where did I critique the pick? And do you guys remember when he was selected? Over a decade ago. You completely ignored that fact, which you tend to do when someone pokes holes in your lofty and rosy assessment of the terrible draft results the team has had.

And did you also miss where I said the recent prospects are showing promise? I guess the Kings struggles has also caused some fans to struggle to read.

And what’s false? That other teams don’t have the luxury of claiming they haven’t been able to uncover gems like Shore and Andreoff? Yeah, I bet other teams are jealous of the Kings’ depth. They’re just overflowing with so much talent.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

It’s laughable you guys still think LaDue is going to be another Martinez or even a regular NHL defenseman. He struggles to stay in the lineup on a horrible blueline. And I credited Martinez as being a solid pick. Where did I critique the pick? And do you guys remember when he was selected? Over a decade ago. You completely ignored that fact, which you tend to do when someone pokes holes in your lofty and rosy assessment of the terrible draft results the team has had.

And did you also miss where I said the recent prospects are showing promise? I guess the Kings struggles has also caused some fans to struggle to read.

And what’s false? That other teams don’t have the luxury of claiming they haven’t been able to uncover gems like Shore and Andreoff? Yeah, I bet other teams are jealous of the Kings’ depth. They’re just overflowing with so much talent.

There are no holes poked, you're just literally wrong, and frothing at the mouth about it doesn't make you righter.

Edit: without doing the usual draft audit since facts dont really matter, i'll let someone else's weighted analysis stand in, since they arent a Kings homer:

https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-ranking-decade-draft-results/

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Of course that article is going to work in the Kings’ favor when the cutoff is the 2008 draft.

The results from this impervious scouting staff has been minimal post 2010. That criticism seems to hit a sore spot for the staunch defenders of the flawless Kings scouts.

And I’ve been critical of the lack of results from their drafts for quite some time. You notice who is among the oldest and slowest teams in the league? You notice how there haven’t been many NHL ready prospects who have graduated to full time duty that were brought up internally?

And those holding spots are inconsistent players who struggle to produce. But that’s a luxury that the team is flourishing from I guess?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Of course that article is going to work in the Kings’ favor when the cutoff is the 2008 draft.

The results from this impervious scouting staff has been minimal post 2010. That criticism seems to hit a sore spot for the staunch defenders of the flawless Kings scouts.

And I’ve been critical of the lack of results from their drafts for quite some time. You notice who is among the oldest and slowest teams in the league? You notice how there haven’t been many NHL ready prospects who have graduated to full time duty that were brought up internally?

And those holding spots are inconsistent players who struggle to produce. But that’s a luxury that the team is flourishing from I guess?

I'm just saying you're factually incorrect and no amount of analysis I've done--whether since 2008, 2010, or even later--is bringing you down from that internet outrage hill so I don't really f***ing care what you do with the information. I'm simply putting it in front of you so YOU know you're delusional about it since everyone but you knows that already.

It makes for much better discussion when you can pick apart the finer points--which I HAVE seen you do--instead of a blanket "LOL SCOUTING AND DRAFTING SUCKS" complaint that's wrong from any kind of analysis but an emotionally raging one.

 

[King'sPawn]

I am confident in the Kings ability to draft. They have yet to shown the ability to develop top end talent to play in the NHL.

I know it's not EASY to develop those sorts of talent, but the drop off shouldn't be:
Kopitar




Rest of the forwards
and
Doughty




Rest of the defense.

It takes Kopitar playing with one shoulder for there to be someone else to lead the team in scoring, and that was Carter, who also was not drafted/developed by the Kings.

The best forward the Kings have drafted and developed since they started fighting for the playoffs (2010 and later) is Tyler Toffoli. Here's the full list of best forwards they have drafted, developed, and have played at least an NHL game, sorted by career high in points in one season:
Tyler Toffoli (53)
Tanner Pearson (44)
Adrian Kempe (37)
Jordan Weal (21)
Nick Shore (17)
Andy Andreoff (10)
Mike Amadio (8)
Valentin Zykov (7)
Jonny Brodzinski (6)
Tomas Hyka (4)
Austin Wagner (4)
Michael Mersch (3)
Hudson Fasching (2)
Jaret Anderson-Dolan (1)
Justin Auger (0)

This is it. These are the forwards the Kings have drafted and spent at least some time developing in their system since 2010, and these are the ones who have played at least 1 NHL game. I know some of these numbers may seem unfair, considering both Wagner and JAD are rookies, but the best forward they have developed topped out as a good second liner.

Here are the defensemen the Kings have drafted + spent some time developing since 2010, and have played at least one NHL game. I'll rank them by games played since I think it's more unfair to judge defensemen by points scored:
Colin Miller (218)
Derek Forbort (205)
Kevin Gravel (86)
Paul LaDue (45)
Erik Cernak (15)
Roland McKeown (10)

Even if you use the "quick metrics" of 100 games played, the Kings have drafted + developed two defensemen since 2010 who have met that "NHLer" criteria. The best one we have, based on games played, isn't even on the Kings anymore.

The bottom line is, we can say the Kings haven't had good picks all we want. I get it's a constraint, and I think it's a fair defense for a while. But when the best forward you've drafted and developed in 8 years has topped out at 53 points, and the best defenseman who has stayed with the Kings can't be counted on to anchor his own pairing, I don't have a lot of faith that our staff knows how to help the players grow. Iafallo was 23 when he joined the Kings, so he did a lot of his own growing. Maybe Matt Luff, JAD, or Vilardi can show the Kings can develop a top line player at a younger age? I'm not sure. So far, though, it's still a very bad ratio that will take more evidence to convince me otherwise.

I'm just honestly worried, even if the Kings do draft Jack Hughes, Kaapo Kakko, or Kirby Dach... is anyone genuinely confident in his ability, long term, to put up consistent first line or very good second line numbers?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

What are you putting in front of me that I’m ignoring? Andreoff, Weal, Shore, LaDue? It’s sad you are still hanging onto draft results from a decade ago as proof that they’re doing a great job finding players. You’re still hanging onto names like King, Nolan, Martinez, all drafted over a decade ago, and ignoring the lack of results.

What are the finer points you are bringing up? I’m sorry I’m not as blind and deluded as some of you are. Paul LaDue is looking great isn’t he?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Thanks for doing that work for me, KingsPawn. Now I’m sure someone will spin that barren list as excellent scouting.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I am confident in the Kings ability to draft. They have yet to shown the ability to develop top end talent to play in the NHL.

I know it's not EASY to develop those sorts of talent, but the drop off shouldn't be:
Kopitar




Rest of the forwards
and
Doughty




Rest of the defense.

It takes Kopitar playing with one shoulder for there to be someone else to lead the team in scoring, and that was Carter, who also was not drafted/developed by the Kings.

The best forward the Kings have drafted and developed since they started fighting for the playoffs (2010 and later) is Tyler Toffoli. Here's the full list of best forwards they have drafted, developed, and have played at least an NHL game, sorted by career high in points in one season:
Tyler Toffoli (53)
Tanner Pearson (44)
Adrian Kempe (37)
Jordan Weal (21)
Nick Shore (17)
Andy Andreoff (10)
Mike Amadio (8)
Valentin Zykov (7)
Jonny Brodzinski (6)
Tomas Hyka (4)
Austin Wagner (4)
Michael Mersch (3)
Hudson Fasching (2)
Jaret Anderson-Dolan (1)
Justin Auger (0)

This is it. These are the forwards the Kings have drafted and spent at least some time developing in their system since 2010, and these are the ones who have played at least 1 NHL game. I know some of these numbers may seem unfair, considering both Wagner and JAD are rookies, but the best forward they have developed topped out as a good second liner.

Here are the defensemen the Kings have drafted + spent some time developing since 2010, and have played at least one NHL game. I'll rank them by games played since I think it's more unfair to judge defensemen by points scored:
Colin Miller (218)
Derek Forbort (205)
Kevin Gravel (86)
Paul LaDue (45)
Erik Cernak (15)
Roland McKeown (10)

Even if you use the "quick metrics" of 100 games played, the Kings have drafted + developed two defensemen since 2010 who have met that "NHLer" criteria. The best one we have, based on games played, isn't even on the Kings anymore.

The bottom line is, we can say the Kings haven't had good picks all we want. I get it's a constraint, and I think it's a fair defense for a while. But when the best forward you've drafted and developed in 8 years has topped out at 53 points, and the best defenseman who has stayed with the Kings can't be counted on to anchor his own pairing, I don't have a lot of faith that our staff knows how to help the players grow. Iafallo was 23 when he joined the Kings, so he did a lot of his own growing. Maybe Matt Luff, JAD, or Vilardi can show the Kings can develop a top line player at a younger age? I'm not sure. So far, though, it's still a very bad ratio that will take more evidence to convince me otherwise.

I'm just honestly worried, even if the Kings do draft Jack Hughes, Kaapo Kakko, or Kirby Dach... is anyone genuinely confident in his ability, long term, to put up consistent first line or very good second line numbers?

I think we're all worried about that, and I wonder aloud what Blake et. al. envision for the development staff, that will obviously have to evolve from the low-scoring defensive style we've worked on for so long. I DO trust Sturm and his fresh hockey brain, but the question is how much of that will trickle down, and how much will he be constrained by the higher-ups (lack of) vision?

I do think the truly transcendent talents will succeed regardless/in spite of 'system' but I"m worried about the Akil Thomas, Rasmus Kupari tier.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

What are you putting in front of me that I’m ignoring? Andreoff, Weal, Shore, LaDue? It’s sad you are still hanging onto draft results from a decade ago as proof that they’re doing a great job finding players. You’re still hanging onto names like King, Nolan, Martinez, all drafted over a decade ago, and ignoring the lack of results.

What are the finer points you are bringing up? I’m sorry I’m not as blind and deluded as some of you are. Paul LaDue is looking great isn’t he?

TO the firs tboldfaced, like I said, your usual dishonest analysis by cherry picking.

To the second, pretending that those guys 'didn't get results' when one has the WCF goal scoring record, one has scored key stanley cup playoff goals from a depth role as a 7th round pick, and one literally has WCF game 7 OT and SCF winning OT goals is...lmao. Ok.

If LaDue doesn't take, so be it. Won't be the first time I was wrong about a guy. Difference is I can admit that.

Thanks for doing that work for me, KingsPawn. Now I’m sure someone will spin that barren list as excellent scouting.

Doesn't matter how much of your homework people do for you, you have no idea what to do with the information.

Because when you contextualize it with what other teams have done in similar amounts of time with even BETTER picks in terms of quantity AND quality--and the Kings still have better results than the majority of the NHL--it IS excellent scouting and drafting. But I don't need to show you that again. I've done it no less than three times. You just like to be lazy and pretend others' arguments stand in for yours since you have nothing at all to lean on here.

Edit: and don't get me wrong I'm not 'defending' the organization here, really--i'm with KP AND you that the lack of offensive talent in that time is an issue/concern. I'm just not ready to trash the staff for it since they repeatedly and reliably executed on a very clear vision.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

So when you cherry pick from decades old results, it’s conrextualizing?

I’m talking about their lacking draft results post 2010, and you still think they’re excellent based on results from 2007 and 2008.

What about their draft from 2011 and on has been excellent? Why do you fail to answer that? Oh wait, it’s because I’m cherry picking with facts and not talking out of my ass about “contextualizing.” You and your buzzwords, lol. You have no idea how to stick to the facts. Sorry, but you’re full of shit. But hey, keep bringing up draft results from a decade ago and blame others for cherry picking when they bring up recent results.

This team is in great shape because of their excellent drafting. You just keep stretching those goal posts and living in the past and make excuses for a team that clearly has a shoddy record drafting since 2011.

 

[Reclamation Project]

It's all but guaranteed if the Kings finish with the worst record they'll get shafted.

 

[Cook24]

Sucks teams like the oilers had to bring about the draft lottery for being so shitty for so long. Even if we finish dead last, there’s about a 82 percent chance that we don’t get the #1 pick...f***ing lame

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

How can anyone look at the list KP provided above and honestly say with a straight face this team is drafting well?

I’m not writing off any of the recently drafted guys from 2016 and on, but for a very long stretch, this has not been an excellent drafting team. To make that claim now is ridiculous.

Now if Clague, Vilardi, Anderson-Dolan, Kupari, etc. all blow us away as productive talent, then we can all acknowledge that they’re back to being an excellent drafting team, but to claim what they’ve done from 2011 and on as excellent is being disingenuous and completely full of shit. And that’s not cherry picking. Those are f***ing facts.

 

[KopitarFAN]

Craig Button's new list for 2019.

https://www.tsn.ca/craig-s-list-kakko-hughes-set-for-world-junior-clash-1.1225187

 

[Reclamation Project]

Sucks teams like the oilers had to bring about the draft lottery for being so ****ty for so long. Even if we finish dead last, there’s about a 82 percent chance that we don’t get the #1 pick...****ing lame

Buffalo too, f***ing losers.

 

[AbsentMojo]

You have to consider draft position and missing 1st round picks and quality of player development at arrive at some kind of conclusion about draft pick quality.