2019-20 Kings News/Rumors

[Raccoon Jesus]

I just think it's a bit disingenuous. The 2012 Kings occupy a very rare place in hockey history. Most eighth seeds are not going into the playoffs with top three GAA, GPG, and possession metrics. "Anything can happen" is not applicable across the board.

Most teams who sneak into the playoffs as a low seed have no chance of contending for a championship.

Historically, I agree.

Cap era, I disagree.

Pronman has a new article up on the athletic, Prospects I was Wrong About, 2019 Edition

He includes one King - our very own Blake Lizotte:

I was very wrong about Lizotte, too. I had him pegged as Rempal 2.0. Had no idea he had such a tenacious motor and so much strength on his edges, saw he had skill but worried about his ability to come out of the corner with the puck...which was stupid because he's arguably the best on the team at that already.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Fuhr went on to win 113 games after his disastrous tenure with the Kings. He won 92 games in the next 3 seasons alone. He would've gotten a statue outside the Forum with those numbers.

And his career almost came to an end before it even started in St. Louis when he showed up to camp in no shape to perform.

The St. Louis Blues suspended new goalie Grant Fuhr indefinitely

OLD FAITHFUL AT AGE 33, GOALIE TURNED IRON MAN GRANT FUHR HAS SAVED HIS CAREER AND THE ST. LOUIS BLUES

Mike Keenan whipped Fat Grant into shape, and then he goes on to set the NHL regular season record for games played by a goaltender.

 

[Statto]

Fuhr went on to win 113 games after his disastrous tenure with the Kings. He won 92 games in the next 3 seasons alone. He would've gotten a statue outside the Forum with those numbers.

And his numbers in STL were pretty good alongside that.

Losing Zhitnik hurt a tonne but a goaltender was needed. What was the view immediately the trade was made? It’s the sort of info that was in short supply in the uk, unless you’d somehow get a copy of the Hockey News.

He hadn’t had the best start in Buffalo but was still a solid goaltender after he left us. It’s easy to assess after the fact, but I can see why they did it.

Ah... thanks Zigg.

 

[Choralone]

And his numbers in STL were pretty good alongside that.

Losing Zhitnik hurt a tonne but a goaltender was needed. What was the view immediately the trade was made? It’s the sort of info that was in short supply in the uk, unless you’d somehow get a copy of the Hockey News.

It was perplexing. McNall's financial house of cards hadn't been exposed yet. Personally it has been my most-hated trade in my entire LA Kings fandom.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

How is it disingenuous? I am saying that nobody was considering the Kings as Cup contenders. Is that a false statement? What’s disingenuous is you guys who are claiming they were Cup contenders that season. Show me who picked them to go to the Cup Final or as Cup favorites.

And here’s how the hockey media thought the playoffs would play out.
NHL.com predicts 2012 Stanley Cup Playoffs
Fan Fuel: First round NHL playoff predictions - Sportsnet.ca

2012 Stanley Cup Playoffs: Full Round-by-Round Predictions

You even had these stat nerds heavily favoring the Blues over the Kings in round 2, after the Kings decimated Vancouver.
2012 NHL Stanley Cup Playoffs Second Round Predictions

It's disingenuous because you're using the 2012 Kings - an extraordinarily unique team, both historically and statistically - to support the claim of, "just make the playoffs and anything can happen." Is this not what you're arguing?

 

[The Tikkanen]

And his career almost came to an end before it even started in St. Louis when he showed up to camp in no shape to perform.

The St. Louis Blues suspended new goalie Grant Fuhr indefinitely

OLD FAITHFUL AT AGE 33, GOALIE TURNED IRON MAN GRANT FUHR HAS SAVED HIS CAREER AND THE ST. LOUIS BLUES

Mike Keenan whipped Fat Grant into shape, and then he goes on to set the NHL regular season record for games played by a goaltender.

If this was today Keenan would be in hot water for his treatment of Fuhr.

 

[King'sPawn]

It's disingenuous because you're using the 2012 Kings - an extraordinarily unique team, both historically and statistically - to support the claim of, "just make the playoffs and anything can happen." Is this not what you're arguing?

If I'm reading correctly, Ziggy is citing Carter, who played on that extraordinarily unique team, as a basis that you have a chance if you make the playoffs.

And I agree with him.

Let's not forget, if not for the Wildcard, the Kings would have also been the sixth seed in the 2014 playoffs. Aside from the Kings, no team lower than the 5th seed had ever won the cup before.

 

[Butch 19]

And his numbers in STL were pretty good alongside that.

Losing Zhitnik hurt a ton but a goaltender was needed. What was the view immediately the trade was made? It’s the sort of info that was in short supply in the uk, unless you’d somehow get a copy of the Hockey News.
.

Not for the price of Zhitnik!

The Fuhr / Zhitnik trade is one of the 2 or 3 worst I've seen in Kings history.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Historically, I agree.

Cap era, I disagree.




I was very wrong about Lizotte, too. I had him pegged as Rempal 2.0. Had no idea he had such a tenacious motor and so much strength on his edges, saw he had skill but worried about his ability to come out of the corner with the puck...which was stupid because he's arguably the best on the team at that already.

I mean, in the cap era, the following 7th and 8th seeds (or wildcard seeds) have reached the Cup Finals:

2012 Kings
2017 Predators
2010 Flyers
2006 Oilers

So four teams out of 24 total finalists over the past 14 years have been 7th, 8th, or wildcard seeds.

Only the 2006 Oilers and 2012 Kings were eighth seeds.

Only the 2012 Kings actually won the Cup.

Seems pretty rare to me.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

If I'm reading correctly, Ziggy is citing Carter, who played on that extraordinarily unique team, as a basis that you have a chance if you make the playoffs.

And I agree with him.

Let's not forget, if not for the Wildcard, the Kings would have also been the sixth seed in the 2014 playoffs. Aside from the Kings, no team lower than the 5th seed had ever won the cup before.

Absolutely you have a chance if you make the playoffs. And that chance is very, *very* low if you are a 7th or 8th seed.

In the past 14 years, only four teams have reached the Cup Finals as a 7th, 8th, or WC team. Only one of those teams has won the Cup (2012 Kings).

It's also reasonable to say Carter is a bit biased in this regard, considering he played on two of these four teams (2010 Flyers and 2012 Kings).

 

[King'sPawn]

Absolutely you have a chance if you make the playoffs. And that chance is very, *very* low if you are a 7th or 8th seed.

In the past 14 years, only four teams have reached the Cup Finals as a 7th, 8th, or WC team. Only one of those teams has won the Cup (2012 Kings).

It's also reasonable to say Carter is a bit biased in this regard, considering he played on two of these four teams (2010 Flyers and 2012 Kings).

That's fair. It is pretty rare. I just agree with Ziggy.

Just to review the 2011-12 season, though:
After acquiring Richards, people called the Kings cup contenders, because they addressed their biggest need of center depth.

After TM was fired, the Kings were the worst team offensively, and having any impact on the playoffs was a long shot.

After Sutter was hired: Great, a meaner TM clone. We're screwed.

After the trade for Carter: he'll help, but he was underwhelming all season and the Kings are still going to struggle scoring.

Start of playoffs: Kings are going to put up a good fight against the president trophy winners.

The point is, people considered the Kings contenders on paper, but after struggling, they were for the most part written off.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It's disingenuous because you're using the 2012 Kings - an extraordinarily unique team, both historically and statistically - to support the claim of, "just make the playoffs and anything can happen." Is this not what you're arguing?

I'm confused. That historic run the Kings went on was not anticipated by anyone, I think we all agree on this point.

My point of contention was that nobody knew what that Kings team was capable of and nobody saw this team setting records and going 12-2 on the way to the Cup Final and only losing one road game during that entire run. Nobody pegged them to go that far, and we even have a player from the team (not some random message board poster), stating that they've proven anything can happen.

JEFF CARTER: "We had to fight just to get in, and once you get in, anything can happen with how close the teams are," he added. "An eight seed doesn't really mean anything once you're in. Anything can happen. That month before the playoffs started has helped us. We just kept rolling the way we've been playing. It's good."

Prior to those playoffs, the Kings were not considered a Cup contending team because they hadn't advanced past the first round since 2001. This debate stemmed from people arguing when is the right time to make a trade for a star player, as if trading for Ziggy Palffy hurt the Kings more than it helped them, when in fact quite the opposite happened.

It would be like stating the Richards trade hurt the Kings more than it helped them when the end result was two Stanley Cups. The decision to keep Richards after that second Cup is what hurt them more in the long run.

 

[YP44]

it is crazy how someone saying that Palffy was their favorite king has morphed its way to this. What a wild journey

 

[Ollie Weeks]

No rumours, I see.

 

[YP44]

No rumours, I see.

I just spent 10 minutes reading an athletic article about the hot dogs in montreal (Doughty and Quick are quoted in it). So I got nothing for ya

 

[SettlementRichie10]

I'm confused. That historic run the Kings went on was not anticipated by anyone, I think we all agree on this point.

My point of contention was that nobody knew what that Kings team was capable of and nobody saw this team setting records and going 12-2 on the way to the Cup Final and only losing one road game during that entire run. Nobody pegged them to go that far, and we even have a player from the team (not some random message board poster), stating that they've proven anything can happen.

JEFF CARTER: "We had to fight just to get in, and once you get in, anything can happen with how close the teams are," he added. "An eight seed doesn't really mean anything once you're in. Anything can happen. That month before the playoffs started has helped us. We just kept rolling the way we've been playing. It's good."

Prior to those playoffs, the Kings were not considered a Cup contending team because they hadn't advanced past the first round since 2001. This debate stemmed from people arguing when is the right time to make a trade for a star player, as if trading for Ziggy Palffy hurt the Kings more than it helped them, when in fact quite the opposite happened.

It would be like stating the Richards trade hurt the Kings more than it helped them when the end result was two Stanley Cups. The decision to keep Richards after that second Cup is what hurt them more in the long run.

Well, framed in this context, yes, I certainly agree that it's never a bad idea to bring in a young, star player if you're in the right position to do so. I was obviously super happy with the Palffy trade, as I was with the Richards trade.

But I still don't believe "once you get in, anything can happen." Statistically, that's just not true.

 

[KingsFan7824]

If this was today Keenan would be in hot water for his treatment of Fuhr.

The day is not over yet.

Prior to those playoffs, the Kings were not considered a Cup contending team because they hadn't advanced past the first round since 2001. This debate stemmed from people arguing when is the right time to make a trade for a star player, as if trading for Ziggy Palffy hurt the Kings more than it helped them, when in fact quite the opposite happened.

It would be like stating the Richards trade hurt the Kings more than it helped them when the end result was two Stanley Cups. The decision to keep Richards after that second Cup is what hurt them more in the long run.

Speaking of not getting out of the 1st round in forever, an argument can be made that the Kings weren't quite ready to make the Richards deal anymore than they were Palffy. Considering that it took Carter, King, Nolan, and a fired coach, on top of Richards, before they really got going. The price paid for Richards is supposed to be a finishing move, not, oh, we're still not deep enough. That's what happened with Palffy. Part of that was Penner could never score as a King, and Gagne got hurt, but that was also part of the pressure DL was feeling that year. There were multiple moves that weren't working.

What if Carter was ok with being in Columbus? What if that team was decent, and he was producing? There was nobody else at the deadline that year that would've saved the Kings. The team itself may not have been lucky on the ice, but they got lucky that Carter was not only available, but cost significantly less than what Columbus paid for him. It should've cost Voynov. The MF in JMFJ was no longer a positive by Feb 2012. Voynov wasn't the greatest defensive player, but he was better then JJ, and right handed. Amazing that DL ripped the Jackets off that badly.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

That's fair. It is pretty rare. I just agree with Ziggy.

Just to review the 2011-12 season, though:
After acquiring Richards, people called the Kings cup contenders, because they addressed their biggest need of center depth.

After TM was fired, the Kings were the worst team offensively, and having any impact on the playoffs was a long shot.

After Sutter was hired: Great, a meaner TM clone. We're screwed.

After the trade for Carter: he'll help, but he was underwhelming all season and the Kings are still going to struggle scoring.

Start of playoffs: Kings are going to put up a good fight against the president trophy winners.

The point is, people considered the Kings contenders on paper, but after struggling, they were for the most part written off.

Again, the only minor disagreement I have here is that the Kings were very clearly a dangerous team in April of 2012 if you only bothered to look at their underlying statistics post-Carter trade. The moment they landed Carter, they went on an absolute tear through the rest of the regular season and into the playoffs. Does that make them mainstream contenders? No, but the statistics available at the time absolutely painted them as contenders.

So it's a bit disingenuous to prop up the claim of "anything can happen in the playoffs" on the backs of the 2012 Kings. The 2012 Kings were not some run of the mill eighth seed. They are one of only TWO 8th seeds to reach the Cup Finals. They are the ONLY 7th, 8th, or WC to ever win a Cup.

So yes, technically anything can happen in the playoffs. But often this claim is used to justify spending resources or diverting a rebuild just to make the playoffs as a low seed. It's not worth it, as evidenced by the chance of a low seed actually contending is incredibly low.

I mean, would you trade Turcotte, Bjornfot, and Kaliyev right now for Marner just for the chance to sneak into the 2020 playoffs? That's the sort of context I'm considering this debate.

 

[KingsFan7824]

it is crazy how someone saying that Palffy was their favorite king has morphed its way to this. What a wild journey

 

[DryIslandBartender]

Grant Fuhr was just in LA to party, wasn’t a serious hockey org at the time.

 

[Statto]

Not for the price of Zhitnik!

The Fuhr / Zhitnik trade is one of the 2 or 3 worst I've seen in Kings history.

Oh, I agree, don’t get me wrong. It was a bad trade in terms of value, let alone the subsequent form of Fuhr.

I understood trading for a goaltender and if you had to lose Zhinik to get a goaltender you possibly should do it, but there needed to be far more coming along with Fuhr for value. I never liked the move, even from here, as Zhitnik was a favourite of mine... Although I was excited by getting Fuhr, for about a week.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Grant Fuhr was just in LA to party, wasn’t a serious hockey org at the time.

And golf. Grant spent more time playing golf than tending goal when he was here.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-12-10-sp-12643-story.html?_amp=true

“My stay in L.A. was great for my golf swing,” Fuhr said.

 

[Bandit]

No rumours, I see.

Rumor has it we suck.

and trading Tomas Sandstrom for Jim Paek was the worst.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I mean, in the cap era, the following 7th and 8th seeds (or wildcard seeds) have reached the Cup Finals:

2012 Kings
2017 Predators
2010 Flyers
2006 Oilers

So four teams out of 24 total finalists over the past 14 years have been 7th, 8th, or wildcard seeds.

Only the 2006 Oilers and 2012 Kings were eighth seeds.

Only the 2012 Kings actually won the Cup.

Seems pretty rare to me.

In that time, the President's Trophy winner has won the Cup only twice, and once was the 08 Wings and once was the lockout-shortened '13 Hawks, and only made the finals one other time (11 Canucks).

Doesn't seem like the odds are vastly different once you're in.

Obviously it's more situational but still.

 

[crassbonanza]

But I still don't believe "once you get in, anything can happen." Statistically, that's just not true.

According to your numbers 4 out of 24 finalists in the cap era have been 7th or 8th seeds, that means those two positions represent ~17% of finalist appearances. If we assumed an even distribution among the seeds, you would expect the 7th/8th seeds to have a 25% representation, so statistically it is not as rare as your are making it. In fact, I would argue that the numbers you are presenting reinforce the idea of just get in and you have a chance. Those numbers are much better than I would have expected them to be.