World Cup: 2016 World Cup — Team Finland

[beepeearr]

He's a pretty good, physical presence. One of the leading defensemen but he's been in very few contested puck situations(in 5v5 he was involved in only 5 of them in total when Jokipakka, Pokka etc. have been in 10+) so it looks like he has some difficulties reading where the play is heading or something. He scored a goal but overall he's had a lot of bad shots too. On the other hand, he's very consistent at both passing as well as receiving passes.

I don't think that he was one of the worst defensemen but I'd expect more. Only being in 5 puck battles with around 14min of 5v5 ice time is a really low amount.

I noticed while watching Lindell he seems to be the Dedicated defensive Dman responsible for hanging back in the offensive zone, and covering the net in the defensive side while pokka just kind of runs around all over the place (including cutting off Lindell while trying to defend a rush). He'll go to the boards occasionally but it was only after a forward would come down to cover the net. And the only time I really saw him in the Offensive zone is when the forwards are changing behind him and he would carry the puck deep into the zone.

Maybe this is part of the defensive scheme they are using, one rover and one guy to protect the net. Would explain the low number of possession battles, just some thoughts.

 

[beepeearr]

Not terrible, not the best.

Involved in very few puck battles, not winning them at a good rate. Okay basic play but nothing extraordinary. I do think that he hasn't been among Finland's worst and I also think that he's outplayed his defensive pairing in Ville Pokka. However, they had several sequences where they got pinned in their own zone for an extended period of time and I don't think that Lindell possesses the battling strength necessary to properly get out of that. Which is a little strange as he has the frame for it...

He's certainly been much better than at WHCs where I thought that he was horrendous.

Horrendous is a little harsh, he was paired with Pokka there too wasnt he. Will agree, he didnt seem to be nearly as involved in the offense as the previous world championships though. However, if I recall correctly, Lindell was only on the ice for one goal against during the world championships, late in the third in the final game, might have been an empty netter even, and so far none against in the World cup. Understandable in the first game with so few minutes, but that last game him and Pokka saw heavy doses of the Sedins +Loui, especially in the third. They got hemmed in at times but mostly did a good job at limiting their chances. The best one they had was a pass that deflected off a Finnish player and went right towards the net.

It was really in that third that we even saw Lindell do any board work, like I said in another post, he seemed to be mainly responsible for the net and slot areas, while Pokka covered the boards.

 

[Snowsii]

Based on?


Barkov 17:59
Laine 15:00
Jokinen 15:42

Total: 48:41

Koivu 18:54
Granlund 13:48
Donskoi 15:31

Total: 48:13

that's game two..

Game one:

Barkov: 18:06
Laine: 14:43
Jokinen: 16:35

Total: 49:24

Koivu: 20:19
Granlund: 18:44
Donskoi: 16:08

Total: 55:11

 

[Snowsii]

Teräväinen => Aho, atleast in practice..

 

[ijuka]

Teräväinen => Aho, atleast in practice..

That'd be good, I doubt Aho can be worse than Teräväinen. Teräväinen also got 2nd least ice time out of anyone, only Haula got less. And of course, Haula accomplished far more with his ice time.

Even though both are artistic playmakers, Aho's far superior grinding and energy-type plays will likely be useful in that line. Also, Aho has a seriously legitimate shot and can act as a scoring threat on the line that otherwise has only passers. Aho is an actual goal scorer with good instincts. Filppula has also been great at grinding stuff and that's just about the only thing Lehterä has been OK at so the third line should be tough to play against, hopefully at least. While I thought that Aho fit there better from the beginning, Teräväinen has a much better NHL pedigree. Still, considering how poorly Teräväinen has played, I'm expecting Aho to do just fine and cement his spot on the lineup with the next game.

 

[BB88]

Yes they are atleast trying to fix the 3rd line, it has been a mess.

Hopefully Aho has a great game, but the timing for this game is bad.

 

[Mestaruus]

I don't think Aho replacing Teräväinen will change much, because Aho still needs to adjust to NA rink like Laine is doing, but I'm still glad Aho gets to play and show his current form in NA rink. He needs to be like top-3 player on the ice vs USA to retain his spot, else I'd give the spot back to Teuvo for Young Guns game who has more experience vs North American players/teams.

Anyways, Finland has a tough challenge in USA... I don't know if anyone noticed but all 8 or 9 prep games have been won by the home crowd team so far.

 

[Male75FromFinland]

Teräväinen => Aho, atleast in practice..

This is huge change, Filppula has been our best player with puck in first two games and Lehtera has been ok along the boards, so hockey IQ of Aho can make huge difference.

 

[Male75FromFinland]

Jokinen is super valuable because of he's defensive game, but they need to get him out from 1st line and powerplay. If they don't take him of he needs to just dump puck in deep to avoid stupid turnovers. Barkov and Laine are also great in cycle game.

 

[MMANumminen]

When did the team fly to Canada? Will there be jet lag issues? Travelling to west is not as bad as vice versa

 

[ijuka]

Jokinen is super valuable because of he's defensive game, but they need to get him out from 1st line and powerplay. If they don't take him of he needs to just dump puck in deep to avoid stupid turnovers. Barkov and Laine are also great in cycle game.

Defensive game? I looked through the entire game pausing around every 2 seconds and didn't really see this great defense you are talking of. Mind showing me some clips? How do you have a great defense if you only are battling for a loose puck 3 times in total during 5v5(Barkov was in 16 of them)?

Unless you mean PK but heck he can do that in 4th line all the same.

 

[gobbluth]

Defensive game? I looked through the entire game pausing around every 2 seconds and didn't really see this great defense you are talking of. Mind showing me some clips? How do you have a great defense if you only are battling for a loose puck 3 times in total during 5v5(Barkov was in 16 of them)?

Unless you mean PK but heck he can do that in 4th line all the same.

This proves once again ur obsession of wanting to be right. Entire game pausing every 2 seconds just to bash JJ And as that is ur goal, it is very hard to see the whole picture. For an example that video u posted, wher JJ was tackling in the offensive zone and the oponent quickly turned the game, the reason Laine was there helping the game was cause once again, he was late to come help in the offensive zone.

In my original post I believe I posted the reason why Jokinen has so few puck possesion on that line? Yes it wasn't a good game by JJ. But he was far feom the worst on the team. The coaching staff has thought a lot about every line. People seem to think JJ is on that line because he plays in florida like barkov does too. No. It is because Laine is on that line and they don't want a goal against every shift that line is on ice.

Also people go much too deep into their stats analysis. All the corsi lovers should go into themselves. The stats tell many things, but they don't tell the undisputed truth. Corsi stats are interesting and one of the best stats, but people post them like they are the ultimate truth. Putting too much weight on stats is similar to watching only the sector and lap times in a motorsport race but not the race itself.

 

[ijuka]

This proves once again ur obsession of wanting to be right. Entire game pausing every 2 seconds just to bash JJ And as that is ur goal, it is very hard to see the whole picture. For an example that video u posted, wher JJ was tackling in the offensive zone and the oponent quickly turned the game, the reason Laine was there helping the game was cause once again, he was late to come help in the offensive zone.

In my original post I believe I posted the reason why Jokinen has so few puck possesion on that line? Yes it wasn't a good game by JJ. But he was far feom the worst on the team. The coaching staff has thought a lot about every line. People seem to think JJ is on that line because he plays in florida like barkov does too. No. It is because Laine is on that line and they don't want a goal against every shift that line is on ice.

Also people go much too deep into their stats analysis. All the corsi lovers should go into themselves. The stats tell many things, but they don't tell the undisputed truth. Corsi stats are interesting and one of the best stats, but people post them like they are the ultimate truth. Putting too much weight on stats is similar to watching only the sector and lap times in a motorsport race but not the race itself.

Except it wasn't, my goal was collecting puck action stats for the entire Finnish team. Heck, I posted them all earlier. Did you not care to read through them?

As far as forwards go, Jokinen was the worst on the entire team. Second-worst was Mikael Granlund and third-worst was Patrik Laine. In addition to having terrible %s, Jokinen was only in 29 actions in total while his lanemates had at least 10 more actions each.

As a by-product of collecting the stats, I did indeed pause every time some Finnish player did something involving the puck as I had to jot it down. While doing this I noticed many things I hadn't noticed during the game. I paid special attention to Jussi Jokinen because I was actually wondering if he was having any invisible impact. He had very little, in my opinion.



Again, I ask this: If you are having a great defensive impact, how can you only be involved in 3 puck battles in 5v5(Barkov was in 16)? Or just compare to the other top 6 RW, Joonas Donskoi. He was in 13 puck battles.


You seem to have the opinion that Patrik Laine is terrible defensively. In 5v5, Patrik Laine has only had 6 shot attempts against in the 2 first games combined. Is some of it due to his linemates? Of course, but Barkov has had 7 and Jokinen 8 shots against. So what evidence do you have to support that claim of yours?

 

[gobbluth]

Except it wasn't, my goal was collecting puck action stats for the entire Finnish team. Heck, I posted them all earlier. Did you not care to read through them?

As far as forwards go, Jokinen was the worst on the entire team. Second-worst was Mikael Granlund and third-worst was Patrik Laine. In addition to having terrible %s, Jokinen was only in 29 actions in total while his lanemates had at least 10 more actions each.

As a by-product of collecting the stats, I did indeed pause every time some Finnish player did something involving the puck as I had to jot it down. While doing this I noticed many things I hadn't noticed during the game. I paid special attention to Jussi Jokinen because I was actually wondering if he was having any invisible impact. He had very little, in my opinion.



Again, I ask this: If you are having a great defensive impact, how can you only be involved in 3 puck battles in 5v5(Barkov was in 16)? Or just compare to the other top 6 RW, Joonas Donskoi. He was in 13 puck battles.


You seem to have the opinion that Patrik Laine is terrible defensively. In 5v5, Patrik Laine has only had 6 shot attempts against in the 2 first games combined. Is some of it due to his linemates? Of course, but Barkov has had 7 and Jokinen 8 shots against. So what evidence do you have to support that claim of yours?

I do not have any stat evidence, cause I don't waste my time to collect stats that do not tell the whole picture. I am not saying that I am right, often I am probably wrong. At least I don't pretend being an expert because I make stats of every game.

About JJ, you still don't seem to realise that defending isn't only about being involved with the puck. And that kinda proves your expertism on hockey.

And in your stats granlund was the second worst?? This just proves my point at not giving too much emphasis on stats, especially stats u made yourself. Haven't seen granlund play this well since the time in HIFK or the times he has playd as a winger this spring.

And about laine, I'm a fan and he might/will be a superstar in the future. But not ready for the small rink at this time. He was lost even in the iihf wc last spring, even when he scored all those points. He just aould not have been chosen for this tournament. At this point for an example Pulkkinen would make much more impact and he's slapper is pretty even with laines. Salomäki, Rantanen, Aho, even Ruutu would've been more safe choices for this tournament.

 

[ijuka]

I do not have any stat evidence, cause I don't waste my time to collect stats that do not tell the whole picture. I am not saying that I am right, often I am probably wrong. At least I don't pretend being an expert because I make stats of every game.

About JJ, you still don't seem to realise that defending isn't only about being involved with the puck. And that kinda proves your expertism on hockey.

And in your stats granlund was the second worst?? This just proves my point at not giving too much emphasis on stats, especially stats u made yourself. Haven't seen granlund play this well since the time in HIFK or the times he has playd as a winger this spring.

And about laine, I'm a fan and he might/will be a superstar in the future. But not ready for the small rink at this time. He was lost even in the iihf wc last spring, even when he scored all those points. He just aould not have been chosen for this tournament. At this point for an example Pulkkinen would make much more impact and he's slapper is pretty even with laines. Salomäki, Rantanen, Aho, even Ruutu would've been more safe choices for this tournament.

1st paragraph: You resort to underhanded personal insults? Credible. In my opinion stats aren't perfect but they are better than nothing.

2nd paragraph: I do realize it. He looked rather lazy to me. There was one scenario where he made an aggressive hit with everyone out of position and it actually was Laine who skated back and took care of defensive duty there. Maybe he just defended so well no one passed to the players he was defending against. I didn't see that, though. That's why I asked for video clips as that would help.

3rd paragraph: Yes, in my stats Granlund is the second worst. Does it prove that? Why did Granlund get much less play time this game than the last game if he was so good? In the first match, Granlund had 18:44 play time, in the second one he had 13:48. Or do you perhaps know the game better than the head coach? Let's see, Granlund... 6 contested pucks, won 1 lost 5. That's not all that good, right? Also, do you for instance remember the play where Granlund got the puck on the right side of the defensive zone then just lost the puck under no pressure, giving it to a Swedish player and leading into a long period of having to defend in their own zone? Probably not. Maybe you remember the chances or a couple of shots he had but he was a defensive liability and had zero use in puck battles. This is what these stats show and what you probably didn't pay attention to.

4th paragraph: That's complete nonsense. Of the players you listed, only Salomäki makes sense but that would leave Finland even more lacking in goal-scorers. I think that he's been playing better or nearly as well when compared to several NHL players and when we take into account his possible improvement that would be expected to be faster than for other players, I'd say that you are too hasty in saying that.

 

[hirawl]

Collecting puck action stats is completely fine. It's like SPC. Statistics of simple things happening. Things that don't need no judgment whether it happened or not. No grey areas.

The problem is with no other data to possibly find out why exactly those things happened you pretty much shoot yourself in the foot when throwing analyses based on whatever happened around the puck only.

 

[behemolari]

please take slumping Vatanen off from PP unit, besides that everything looks like expected

 

[gobbluth]

1st paragraph: You resort to underhanded personal insults? Credible. In my opinion stats aren't perfect but they are better than nothing.

2nd paragraph: I do realize it. He looked rather lazy to me. There was one scenario where he made an aggressive hit with everyone out of position and it actually was Laine who skated back and took care of defensive duty there. Maybe he just defended so well no one passed to the players he was defending against. I didn't see that, though. That's why I asked for video clips as that would help.

3rd paragraph: Yes, in my stats Granlund is the second worst. Does it prove that? Why did Granlund get much less play time this game than the last game if he was so good? In the first match, Granlund had 18:44 play time, in the second one he had 13:48. Or do you perhaps know the game better than the head coach? Let's see, Granlund... 6 contested pucks, won 1 lost 5. That's not all that good, right? Also, do you for instance remember the play where Granlund got the puck on the right side of the defensive zone then just lost the puck under no pressure, giving it to a Swedish player and leading into a long period of having to defend in their own zone? Probably not. Maybe you remember the chances or a couple of shots he had but he was a defensive liability and had zero use in puck battles. This is what these stats show and what you probably didn't pay attention to.

4th paragraph: That's complete nonsense. Of the players you listed, only Salomäki makes sense but that would leave Finland even more lacking in goal-scorers. I think that he's been playing better or nearly as well when compared to several NHL players and when we take into account his possible improvement that would be expected to be faster than for other players, I'd say that you are too hasty in saying that.

1st paragraph: sorry for saying bad things about you.

2nd paragraph: didn't I just tell about that play what was really happening, only reason Laine was first defending was cause he was late from the offence and a quick turnover happened. Which was in someway JJ:s fault. But Laine should've been in the offensive zone to help out.

3rd paragraph: that is why you are blinded by your stats, in the first Finland took 8 minutes of penaltys. That alone makes granlund playtime drop 1-3 minutes. On most powerplays he was together with barkov able to bring the puck to the offensive end. Those turnovers were mostly because there was no one he could pass to. You have to look at the game, not single puck possession situations. One thing leads to another etc..

4th paragraph: how many goals has laine made so far, more importantly how many scoring chances has he had or even shots. And don't go saying its vatanens fault or someone elses. He is gonna make many goals in the future. But the fans seem to think that "pass to Laine and you get a goal". My point wasn't that those players I mentioned would score more goals. But they would more likely make more things happen, which would lead to scoring opportunities. Laine is gonna be a way better than pulkkinen in a few years, but right now we would get more goals from pulkkinen in a small rink.

 

[ijuka]

2nd paragraph: didn't I just tell about that play what was really happening, only reason Laine was first defending was cause he was late from the offence and a quick turnover happened. Which was in someway JJ:s fault. But Laine should've been in the offensive zone to help out.

See you keep saying things like this that just are blatantly incorrect so it's really difficult to take me seriously at all. It was not a "quick turnover", the Swedish team had possession of the puck. He wasn't "late from the offence", he was in a prime scoring sector with no opposing player anywhere near him. Barkov was very close to Jokinen, what you are saying here is that Laine should have been defensively inresponsible and overattacked? That's not his game, he's a defensively responsible forward who rarely overattacks.


It's funny how the penalties caused Granlund's play time to decrease by 5 minutes but caused Laine's play time to increase by 1 and half minutes, right? I looked at the entire game, very closely. Clearly more closely than you did.



"And don't go saying it's Vatanen's fault or someone else". Why? Well, alright then.

Laine had one open chance where he couldn't bat the puck out of the air. Was it a mistake of his? Yes, it was. Could Donskoi's pass have been better? Yes, yes it could. Apart from that, he had one shot that hit the side of the net and one shot on goal. I believe that would be all. And how many chances did Barkov or Jokinen have last game?



Finally, Pulkkinen is bad and no. You really seem to for some reason enjoy believing you know better than the coaching staff despite consistently saying blatantly incorrect things about the game and then insinuating that I "haven't been watching the game" and "am only looking at single puck actions without looking at the match". You are the one saying things that go against the coaching staff, the basic statistics, the advanced statistics and my personal statistics and without any sort of proof or anything else to support your claims. I did watch the whole match and didn't only look at "single puck actions". How is that any less credible than you saying that you watched the whole game?

 

[4thline]

Collecting puck action stats is completely fine. It's like SPC. Statistics of simple things happening. Things that don't need no judgment whether it happened or not. No grey areas.

The problem is with no other data to possibly find out why exactly those things happened you pretty much shoot yourself in the foot when throwing analyses based on whatever happened around the puck only.

Exactly. The puck action stats are phenomenal, but there's a reason "play away from the puck" is a major point of discussion among coaches/scouts/pundits/ etc. Passive defence and positioning are absolutely huge, and there's no trackable play on the puck if proper positioning eliminates the passing option so the puck doesn't go there in the first place.

 

[cotopaxi]

To me Jokinen seems to not be very involved in the game anymore, he's not a liability but he doesn't drive the play nor is he this valuable two-way player. He's not physical, doesn't even try to board battle, most of the time he's so invisible, just bleh.

If you think he's on the first line to cover Laine's mistakes it's been pretty much the other way around in these two exhibition games. Jokinen is positionally ok but that's it.

 

[kunekune]

To me Jokinen seems to not be very involved in the game anymore, he's not a liability but he doesn't drive the play nor is he this valuable two-way player. He's not physical, doesn't even try to board battle, most of the time he's so invisible, just bleh.

If you think he's on the first line to cover Laine's mistakes it's been pretty much the other way around in these two exhibition games. Jokinen is positionally ok but that's it.

Jokinen doesn't even touch the puck.

Definitely needs to wake up and get more involved.

 

[Booster*]

i don´t have much faith in marjamäki at this point. He lacks that sharpness in desicions.

 

[gobbluth]

See you keep saying things like this that just are blatantly incorrect so it's really difficult to take me seriously at all. It was not a "quick turnover", the Swedish team had possession of the puck. He wasn't "late from the offence", he was in a prime scoring sector with no opposing player anywhere near him. Barkov was very close to Jokinen, what you are saying here is that Laine should have been defensively inresponsible and overattacked? That's not his game, he's a defensively responsible forward who rarely overattacks.


It's funny how the penalties caused Granlund's play time to decrease by 5 minutes but caused Laine's play time to increase by 1 and half minutes, right? I looked at the entire game, very closely. Clearly more closely than you did.



"And don't go saying it's Vatanen's fault or someone else". Why? Well, alright then.

Laine had one open chance where he couldn't bat the puck out of the air. Was it a mistake of his? Yes, it was. Could Donskoi's pass have been better? Yes, yes it could. Apart from that, he had one shot that hit the side of the net and one shot on goal. I believe that would be all. And how many chances did Barkov or Jokinen have last game?



Finally, Pulkkinen is bad and no. You really seem to for some reason enjoy believing you know better than the coaching staff despite consistently saying blatantly incorrect things about the game and then insinuating that I "haven't been watching the game" and "am only looking at single puck actions without looking at the match". You are the one saying things that go against the coaching staff, the basic statistics, the advanced statistics and my personal statistics and without any sort of proof or anything else to support your claims. I did watch the whole match and didn't only look at "single puck actions". How is that any less credible than you saying that you watched the whole game?

I'm sorry if I bring you to bad light and make you seem not to be taken serious. All I just wanted to point out is that you should wake up and stop treating your stats as the ultimate truth. I know my comments might hurt you, cause it seems that you belive that you have a reputation here that your word and your stats are undebatable. I hang so little at these forums that I don't know if you have a somekind of hockey god reputation here. Don't be threatened by my posts.

As for the claim you brought up about myself believing to know better than the coach or staff... Oh come on! Haven't I made it very clear that I don't consider myself being any kind of an expert? You on the other hand... ofc you watched the game, but you watched from the point of view that you are making your stats and so that people could praise u for them. I honestly don't understand how anyone can say
that laine is a defensively responsible forward? He was in the world juniors. But in mens games he is far from that. And if you are going as far as questioning Barkovs game u really are lost.

As i said, Laine will be better than pulks. But not at this stage. And u claiming pulkkinen is bad also confirms ur "knowledge" of hockey.

Try not to watch the stats tonight and definitely not make ur own stats from tonights game and enjoy hockey and what u see. You will also save a lot time that way

 

[kunekune]

I honestly don't understand how anyone can say
that laine is a defensively responsible forward? He was in the world juniors. But in mens games he is far from that. And if you are going as far as questioning Barkovs game u really are lost.

As i said, Laine will be better than pulks. But not at this stage. And u claiming pulkkinen is bad also confirms ur "knowledge" of hockey.

Laine has been defensively responsible so far in these exhibition games, actually saving a couple situatitions when a defender or another forward made a huge mistake. Also he haven't lost the puck a single time leading into oddmanrushes, which can't be said from most forwards or defenders in Team-Finland.

And Laine is already better than Pulkkinen, there shouldn't even be any discussion about that. It's so obvious to everyone who understands anything about hockey.

He really haven't shined in offensive zone but is far from being burden for the team. He loves to hold the puck and is figuring out it doesn't work the way it did in FEL.