Pre-Game Talk: 2014 NHL Entry Draft Part 1

[timw33]

Overall his drafting was mediocre.

The 2006 draft (Bourdon over Kopitar with half of us screaming at our TVs)... sure you can give him a mulligan.

The 2007 draft was one of the worst i've ever seen for a team... and a team that badly needed prospects.

25th Overall- Patrick White
33rd Overall- Taylor Ellington
145th Overall- Charles-Antoine Messier
146th Overall- Ilja Kabukov
176th Overall- Taylor Matson
206th Overall- Dan Gendur

05' was Bourdon draft.

But yeah, 07' was beyond bad: 0 NHL games played, ~30 AHL games played between that group. And almost all of those AHL games where by one player.

CA Messier was out of hockey a year after we drafted him.

 

[Wisp]

I'd like to see how many GMs can string together a couple of "good years" by your standards together. And even if there are some, how many of them are from rebuilding teams that had multiple picks in the 2nd/3rd round.

Bowman has been doing pretty stellar work since 2009. Probably did most of the draft work prior to assuming the main GM position, too. That's a drafting and scouting system that was already successful and wasn't shaken by cleaning house on management.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

I'd like to see how many GMs can string together a couple of "good years" by your standards together. And even if there are some, how many of them are from rebuilding teams that had multiple picks in the 2nd/3rd round.

Dallas 2007-2011 has had much worse picks than the Canucks and still pulled a Jamie Benn (50 points this year), Luke Gazdic, Jack Campbell, Patrik Nemeth, Jamie Oleksiak, Alex Chiasson, Reilly Smith (40 points this year), Curtis McKenzie ...

And that's including some likely busts like Scott Glennie (8th overall), Tomas Vincour, Tyler Beskorowany.

...

EDIT:

For comparison (during that time)...

Canucks top picks would be: Hodgson, Scroeder, Rodin, Connauton, Cannata, McNally, Jensen, Grenier, Corrado

 

[Vankiller Whale]

Bowman has been doing pretty stellar work since 2009. Probably did most of the draft work prior to assuming the main GM position, too. That's a drafting and scouting system that was already successful and wasn't shaken by cleaning house on management.

It's impossible to reasonably evaluate players drafted so recently, but again, Bowman had far more picks to work with.

 

[timw33]

Dallas 2007-2011 has had much worse picks than the Canucks and still pulled a Jamie Benn (50 points this year), Luke Gazdic, Jack Campbell, Patrik Nemeth, Jamie Oleksiak, Alex Chiasson, Reilly Smith (40 points this year), Curtis McKenzie ...

And that's including some likely busts like Scott Glennie (8th overall), Tomas Vincour, Tyler Beskorowany.

Yeah, they are at the very least churning out at least an NHL player + another prospect for their pro system almost every draft.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

Dallas 2007-2011 has had much worse picks than the Canucks and still pulled a Jamie Benn, Luke Gazdic, Jack Campbell, Patrik Nemeth, Jamie Oleksiak, Alex Chiasson, Reilly Smith, Curtis McKenzie ...

And that's including some near busts like Scott Glennie (8th overall), Tomas Vincour, Tyler Beskorowany.

Your counting a lot of players who haven't really "made" the NHL yet. Curtis Mackenzie? Jack Campbell? Heck even Luke Gadzic is really pushing it, he's barely an 4th liner on the worst team in the league with only 50 games to his name.

Using that time period doesn't really provide a fair comparison, since picks haven't yet had time to "bust" or completely develop. Realistically I see Benn as the only established player and Chiasson/Smith as the only players who are extremely likely to be NHL regulars for their careers.

For comparison (during that time)...

Canucks top picks would be: Hodgson, Scroeder, Rodin, Connauton, Cannata, McNally, Jensen, Grenier, Corrado

I see you're arguing the wrong point.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

I'm afraid I've taken this thread off on a tangent. We should probably go back to discussing the 2014 draft.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

Your counting a lot of players who haven't really "made" the NHL yet. Curtis Mackenzie? Jack Campbell? Heck even Luke Gadzic is really pushing it, he's barely an 4th liner on the worst team in the league with only 50 games to his name.

Using that time period doesn't really provide a fair comparison, since picks haven't yet had time to "bust" or completely develop. Realistically I see Benn as the only established player and Chiasson/Smith as the only players who are extremely likely to be NHL regulars for their careers.

Gadzick is a full time NHLer (granted on the Oilers... but still)... Campbell and Oleksiak I can't see not being NHLers at some point.

Meanwhile they were able to turn Smith (with Eriksson granted) into Tyler freaking Seguin.

Curtis Mackenzie would be first on the Utica comets in points and 2nd in goals (double Jensen) and this is his first year out of college.

Perspective:

Schroeder first AHL season: 61 GP, 28 pts
McKenzie first AHL season: 47 GP, 43 pts (not finished yet)

EDIT:

To end, all i'm saying is the Canucks need to have more guys coming in like other teams do (see Chicago).

If you aren't going to be good at drafting players then you need to get more picks. You don't need to move EVERYONE but worst case scenario stop with the stupid trading of 2nd round picks to try to plug holes.

 

[NuxFan09]

Yeah, I'd say Dallas is doing pretty darn well with their drafting. Their success of their farm team lately is reflective of that.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

Gadzick is a full time NHLer (granted on the Oilers... but still)... Campbell and Oleksiak I can't see not being NHLers at some point.

Meanwhile they were able to turn Smith (with Eriksson granted) into Tyler freaking Seguin.

Curtis Mackenzie would be first on the Utica comets in points and 2nd in goals (double Jensen) and this is his first year out of college.

Perspective:

Schroeder first AHL season: 61 GP, 28 pts
McKenzie first AHL season: 47 GP, 43 pts (not finished yet)

Using draft picks from 2007-2011 isn't a good comparison, as I'm talking about specifically Nonis' drafting.

Also, when Mackenzie was the same age as Schroeder in his first AHL season, he had 12 points in 37 games with Miami University. A player hasn't made the NHL until the make the NHL, which is why I'd look for a comparison from the same time period as Nonis.

To end, all i'm saying is the Canucks need to have more guys coming in like other teams do (see Chicago).

If you aren't going to be good at drafting players then you need to get more picks. You don't need to move EVERYONE but worst case scenario stop with the stupid trading of 2nd round picks to try to plug holes.

Of course, but that isn't really relevant to what I said(that Nonis was a pretty solid at drafting with the picks he had, even though he was prone to giving them away like candy)

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

Using draft picks from 2007-2011 isn't a good comparison, as I'm talking about specifically Nonis' drafting.

Also, when Mackenzie was the same age as Schroeder in his first AHL season, he had 12 points in 37 games with Miami University. A player hasn't made the NHL until the make the NHL, which is why I'd look for a comparison from the same time period as Nonis.

Of course, but that isn't really relevant to what I said(that Nonis was a pretty solid at drafting with the picks he had, even though he was prone to giving them away like candy)

I don't agree that it was solid drafting.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

I don't agree that it was solid drafting.

I'd like to know how many teams did better relative to the amount of higher up picks they had over the same time period. Nonis' conversion rate for 2nd/3rd round picks was 50%

http://proicehockey.about.com/od/prospects/f/draft_success.htm

According to this(first article I could find, haven't done the legwork for that specific time frame though) The odds a 2nd rounder pans out is just 25%, and in the 3rd round it's significantly less.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

I'd like to know how many teams did better relative to the amount of higher up picks they had over the same time period. Nonis' conversion rate for 2nd/3rd round picks was 50%

http://proicehockey.about.com/od/prospects/f/draft_success.htm

According to this(first article I could find, haven't done the legwork for that specific time frame though) The odds a 2nd rounder pans out is just 25%, and in the 3rd round it's significantly less.

Part of the real problem is the Luc Bourdon pick.

That one makes the Nonis drafting hard to judge because right now I sit here saying 'poor draft era'... if Bourdon is a top 30 d-man in the NHL it's a great draft era.

Sadly I have to compare the nothing of Bourdon to Anze Kopitar...

 

[CanaFan]

I'd like to know how many teams did better relative to the amount of higher up picks they had over the same time period. Nonis' conversion rate for 2nd/3rd round picks was 50%

http://proicehockey.about.com/od/prospects/f/draft_success.htm

According to this(first article I could find, haven't done the legwork for that specific time frame though) The odds a 2nd rounder pans out is just 25%, and in the 3rd round it's significantly less.

The notion that Nonis was a horrible drafter is unduly influenced by the Bourdon/Kopitar pick and the 2007 debacle. People refuse to acknowledge that over his 4 drafts here Nonis drafted more NHLers than Gillis has in his 6 drafts (or is likely to if you project his last few).

The perception unfortunately supersedes the reality for many around here, so I've long since given up fighting it.

 

[canucksfan100]

I'd like to know how many teams did better relative to the amount of higher up picks they had over the same time period. Nonis' conversion rate for 2nd/3rd round picks was 50%

http://proicehockey.about.com/od/prospects/f/draft_success.htm

According to this(first article I could find, haven't done the legwork for that specific time frame though) The odds a 2nd rounder pans out is just 25%, and in the 3rd round it's significantly less.

Thats still about 7-8 players from the 2nd round who make it?

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

The notion that Nonis was a horrible drafter is unduly influenced by the Bourdon/Kopitar pick and the 2007 debacle. People refuse to acknowledge that over his 4 drafts here Nonis drafted more NHLers than Gillis has in his 6 drafts (or is likely to if you project his last few).

The perception unfortunately supersedes the reality for many around here, so I've long since given up fighting it.

The difference between Nonis and Gillis so far is that it's really hard to point at Gillis picks and be unhappy with choices made vs what was available.

I mean Bourdon over Kopitar... you can almost see....

White over Perron (especially) where a lot of people on here were losing their minds.

 

[racerjoe]

The difference between Nonis and Gillis so far is that it's really hard to point at Gillis picks and be unhappy with choices made vs what was available.

I mean Bourdon over Kopitar... you can almost see....

White over Perron (especially) where a lot of people on here were losing their minds.

I don't want to be the one that mentions the one that is going to come up... so I won't. Besides I still like the pick we chose.

 

[arsmaster*]

2014 draft thread.

Nic Ritchie has 5 goals and an assist tonight

Top line power winger upside.

No more crying over spilled Kopitar.

 

[Outside99*]

I don't understand why you're so adamant about this. It's a really weak year for D-men. There are two D ranked in the Top 15 of Bob's list, that means if you're drafting past #6-#8 where Fleury goes, you're likely making a ridiculous reach for McKeown or Honka when you could be drafting a much better forward. That kind of drafting just harkens back to the Nonis' "positional need" era.

I'm just observing how young dmen 24 and under are transforming their team and the game.

The problem I could see with the draft is wingers are simply much less valuable than dmen. Would Anaheim trade Lindholm or Fowler straight up for any of the Oilers' forwards? Probably not a chance. IF anything, the Oilers' woes have to do with choosing BPA.

 

[tc 23]

2014 draft thread.

Nic Ritchie has 5 goals and an assist tonight

Top line power winger upside.

No more crying over spilled Kopitar.

Yes, please. No more de-railing another thread into a draft hindsight thread.

I haven't seen much of Ritchie this year but he seems like a very ****-disturbing guy. At the top prospects game, I didn't notice much from him in the offensive zone though. Can someone who's seen him more often elaborate on his offensive game and his offensive upside?

 

[Verviticus]

I'm just observing how young dmen 24 and under are transforming their team and the game.

The problem I could see with the draft is wingers are simply much less valuable than dmen. Would Anaheim trade Lindholm or Fowler straight up for any of the Oilers' forwards? Probably not a chance.

i sure as **** hope they would

 

[Icebreakers]

I think Ritchie will be good but I think hes more of a project. Development will be very key after you draft him. Hes very raw imo.

 

[Bad News Benning]

I'm just observing how young dmen 24 and under are transforming their team and the game.

The problem I could see with the draft is wingers are simply much less valuable than dmen. Would Anaheim trade Lindholm or Fowler straight up for any of the Oilers' forwards? Probably not a chance. IF anything, the Oilers' woes have to do with choosing BPA.

There is no lindholm in this draft so why force it? Fleury doesn't thrill me and after that it's mostly mid-late first round talents. You can probably find some defenseman further down the draft. Edler, Tanev, Stanton. total investment was a 3rd round pick. Top 2 prospects on defense in Corrado and hutton? late round picks.

plenty of good defenseman are available after the 1st round it's a lot harder to find elite forwards later in the draft.

 

[Outside99*]

Tell that to Dave Nonis in 2007 when he took Talyor Ellington 33rd overall...

That draft from what I can tell produced 10 really good forwards and 5 good dmen. Pretty close to how the 1st round went down (19-11). Nonis' odds of getting a good one, picking a forward were probably similar.

 

[NuxFan09]

I get leery with a guy like Ritchie. Like, who knows if he's going to be able to translate that to the NHL. He could end up being a plug.

From what I've read, the guy's a project. The Canucks cannot afford to be taking projects.