2013-2014 Hartford Wolf Pack/Greenville Road Warriors Thread Part II

[Blackhawkswincup]

GAME NOTES

Yesterday I wrote that Beach needs to be benched and tonight he was in favor of Stamler..

Was coming in this thread to ask about Beach

God what a terrible mistake he turned out to be for Hawks

 

[fredrikstad]

Exactly. Miller can come up next year after they amnesty Richards.

I have this stange bad feeling that they don't by him out. Wouldn't suprised me if Sather think he played well this year,and therefore........................................

 

[greenday]

In case of a injury to any center in Rangers, who do you think gets the chance?
Is Miller the one who is ranked first all times, or can they possibly want to test Lindberg before the next season?
Lindberg seems to have been pretty good after December.

Thoughts about that?

 

[Mikos87]

In case of a injury to any center in Rangers, who do you think gets the chance?
Is Miller the one who is ranked first all times, or can they possibly want to test Lindberg before the next season?
Lindberg seems to have been pretty good after December.

Thoughts about that?

I think they both make it, but Miller will play center, and Lindberg comes up on the wing. Lindberg can replace Moore, but if Moore is resigned I see Oscar on the wing to start.

Truth be told the first few months with the wolfpack, Lindberg wasn't all that great. But it's the first time he's playing on smaller ice with bigger players so it's somewhat understandable. I think Oscar can be a Marcus Krueger type player, while Miller I see as a B level Mike Richards or a Brandon Dubinsky type player.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

In case of a injury to any center in Rangers, who do you think gets the chance?
Is Miller the one who is ranked first all times, or can they possibly want to test Lindberg before the next season?
Lindberg seems to have been pretty good after December.

Thoughts about that?

My guess is that if an injury were to occur this year, Miller gets the first call up. He's the most physically ready and had the benefit of the full camp and 20-odd games with the Rangers to work with the coaches and learn the system; he's done it before and knows what to expect. I like him as a player due to his dynamic play, physicality and nose for the net. That said, he has GOT to eliminate the "I'll do it all myself" mistakes and develop better vision for his teammates. It's funny to say on this board where we have so many guys who we wish would shoot more (Kreider, Brass, Zucc, etc.), but Miller needs to be a little less selfish and a little more heads up if he's going to realize his potential.

Lindberg would likely get the second call if they needed a center. He is really starting to develop. Sometimes it takes players a year or so to get used to the NA sized rinks - and the crappy depth, goaltending and (IMO) coaching in Hartford can't have helped. But he seems to "get it" now and the numbers bear that out in the new year. He shows better center instincts than Miller, has better vision, better passing, better defense - but isn't as strong or as physical and really only has been coming into his own for about a month, month and a half.

I like both players and I'd honestly like to see them both play out the season in the AHL, put in solid offseasons working out, have good camps... and then I think both would have a great shot to make the team next year.

 

[Mikos87]

My guess is that if an injury were to occur this year, Miller gets the first call up. He's the most physically ready and had the benefit of the full camp and 20-odd games with the Rangers to work with the coaches and learn the system; he's done it before and knows what to expect. I like him as a player due to his dynamic play, physicality and nose for the net. That said, he has GOT to eliminate the "I'll do it all myself" mistakes and develop better vision for his teammates. It's funny to say on this board where we have so many guys who we wish would shoot more (Kreider, Brass, Zucc, etc.), but Miller needs to be a little less selfish and a little more heads up if he's going to realize his potential.

Lindberg would likely get the second call if they needed a center. He is really starting to develop. Sometimes it takes players a year or so to get used to the NA sized rinks - and the crappy depth, goaltending and (IMO) coaching in Hartford can't have helped. But he seems to "get it" now and the numbers bear that out in the new year. He shows better center instincts than Miller, has better vision, better passing, better defense - but isn't as strong or as physical and really only has been coming into his own for about a month, month and a half.

I like both players and I'd honestly like to see them both play out the season in the AHL, put in solid offseasons working out, have good camps... and then I think both would have a great shot to make the team next year.

Spot on. Miller is a plus 3rd line player right now. But he over handles the puck, and doesn't have the greatest shot selection. That, and being more assertive against puck moving defenseman are the only things keeping him from the NHL.

The decision making is something that he can work on in the AHL, as far as PMDs go, there aren't any to be honest in the AHL where Miller can get that sort of experience and practice, so that's something he'll learn at the NHL level.

Ryan Murray and Brian Campbell absolutely schooled him in the NHL this year... Miller isn't going to see plays like that in the AHL, but he can work on using his linemates better, and taking better shots.

 

[Ola]

Was coming in this thread to ask about Beach

God what a terrible mistake he turned out to be for Hawks

Yeah, this is the problem with drafting size. There are a few that comes in and makes it look easy, but soooo many others that never come close.

 

[Ola]

I think they both make it, but Miller will play center, and Lindberg comes up on the wing. Lindberg can replace Moore, but if Moore is resigned I see Oscar on the wing to start.

Truth be told the first few months with the wolfpack, Lindberg wasn't all that great. But it's the first time he's playing on smaller ice with bigger players so it's somewhat understandable. I think Oscar can be a Marcus Krueger type player, while Miller I see as a B level Mike Richards or a Brandon Dubinsky type player.

OLs biggest weakness is that he don't have that intensity in his skating like say Kreuger. OL really is a very very good hockey player, but the Euros that struggle the most with coming to NA are the ones that don't have that intensity. It's a lot easier for someone like Kreuger -- whom in most areas actually are way behind OL -- to win a spot in the NHL since they often contributes a lot in smaller roles.

OL can definitely become a good player for us. But that's a bit of a obstacle he needs to beat.

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

BrooklynRangersFan-As for our earlier conversation about Fast and Kristo, it was Kristo who made some nice takeaways in the second period.

Fast had a decent game yesterday, his no look pass was sick, and he was good on the PK, but it was Kristo who really cleaned it up in his own zone.

Fast I think is much more subtle and consistent and then will have a play out of nowhere that wows people, plus he's a disruptor to other teams offenses.

Kristo is more flashy but he has gotten better in his own zone since October.

As far as calllups go for forwards, I think it's
1. Miller
2. Fast
3. Lindberg
4. Kristo

 

[gary laser eyes]

I think OL can adapt to the North American game. While he isn't overly physical he certainly doesn't shy away from contact:



He has the hockey sense to make up for any lack of physicality. It's a good sign that he's been a PPG player for HFD since the beginning of December.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

BrooklynRangersFan-As for our earlier conversation about Fast and Kristo, it was Kristo who made some nice takeaways in the second period.

Fast had a decent game yesterday, his no look pass was sick, and he was good on the PK, but it was Kristo who really cleaned it up in his own zone.

Fast I think is much more subtle and consistent and then will have a play out of nowhere that wows people, plus he's a disruptor to other teams offenses.

Kristo is more flashy but he has gotten better in his own zone since October.

As far as calllups go for forwards, I think it's
1. Miller
2. Fast
3. Lindberg
4. Kristo

Well, I was actually thinking specifically of a play Fast made in the first and another in the third when the Admirals had pulled their goalie, so maybe we can agree that they both had good defensive games.

Other than that, I generally agree with your assessments above. I think we'll see more and more "wow" in Fast's game if he can stay healthy and continue to develop confidence. Kristo has definitely become better in his own zone, although he is still making those risky plays at the offensive blue line a la Brad last year, that he has got to cut out. There was only one last night, and it didn't go anywhere, but it was a doozy - he tried to pass across two defenders from the left point to the right point. Fortunately the defender deflected the pass rather than picking it off.

 

[Beacon]

St. Croix had two more points (G+A) last years, so now he has 32 points in 31 games.

After his first two games when he got 4 points, MSC was called up to the AHL, but spent the time there with crappy linemates at a time when the team was badly struggling. He lost all confidence and in the 8 November games he played, St. Croix got only 1 point.

Outside of the 8 game cold streak, St. Croix has 31 points in 23 games, which is on pace for 111 points over 82 games. He never got more than 3 points per game (which happened only 2-3 times), so his scoring has been very consistent and not the result of a few crazy games.

I hope he finishes up as strong as and doesn't have any more cold streaks. Then let's see what he does in the AHL next season. He's clearly a dominant ECHL offensive player.

Greenville just began playing against South Carolina a few minutes ago.

 

[Beacon]

Yeah, this is the problem with drafting size. There are a few that comes in and makes it look easy, but soooo many others that never come close.

All the good prospects with size go very, very early, usually top 5, but no later than top 10. After that, you are dealing with players whose skill is more imagined than real. Everyone is hoping to get an Eric Lindros type player and having one player like Getzlaf succeed is enough for the GMs to draft big guys with late first rounders for the next 10 years.

Right before the 2011 draft, I posted statistics here showing that for every inch of height, the player's chances to make the NHL drop when taking the draft position into account.

This sounds blatantly wrong because obviously the bigger the player, the better. But that's why I underlined the above. When you have a big kid, he is nearly always overrated. A big kid with good skill will go in the top-5. When you are drafting at #20, you can't help but get someone who's not perfect. After all, there aren't 20 perfect players in any draft.

At #20, the player must have severe deficiencies in his game or else 19 teams wouldn't have passed on him. For a big guy (assuming he's not coming off a bad injury), the usual flaw is his lack of skill. But because skill can be imagined, while size cannot, scouts (and even more so fans) tend to ignore it. This is particularly so since the more physically developed prospects can often run up junior points just by dominating other kids physically. When this becomes impossible against adults in the pros, the dire lack of skill that caused the 6-3 230 pound forward to fall to #20 is exposed.

There are exceptions, of course. One such exception was Kreider, who didn't lack skill, but was extremely raw and therefore, high risk. He worked out, Jessiman did not. Going 1-for-2 is actually very good when it comes to big forwards outside of the top-10.

 

[colman]

St. Croix had two more points (G+A) last years, so now he has 32 points in 31 games.

After his first two games when he got 4 points, MSC was called up to the AHL, but spent the time there with crappy linemates at a time when the team was badly struggling. He lost all confidence and in the 8 November games he played, St. Croix got only 1 point.

Outside of the 8 game cold streak, St. Croix has 31 points in 23 games, which is on pace for 111 points over 82 games. He never got more than 3 points per game (which happened only 2-3 times), so his scoring has been very consistent and not the result of a few crazy games.

I hope he finishes up as strong as and doesn't have any more cold streaks. Then let's see what he does in the AHL next season. He's clearly a dominant ECHL offensive player.

Greenville just began playing against South Carolina a few minutes ago.

Mike Marcou has 20 points in last 21 games from the blue line a nice streak also

 

[Mikos87]

OLs biggest weakness is that he don't have that intensity in his skating like say Kreuger. OL really is a very very good hockey player, but the Euros that struggle the most with coming to NA are the ones that don't have that intensity. It's a lot easier for someone like Kreuger -- whom in most areas actually are way behind OL -- to win a spot in the NHL since they often contributes a lot in smaller roles.

OL can definitely become a good player for us. But that's a bit of a obstacle he needs to beat.

Exactly. It seems more of an issue with comfort and confidence with him. He is a very smart and heady player, but hasn't been winning physical battles against your typical 3rd and 4th liners in AHL. He's great with the puck, and in open space, but what you are describing is what he lacks.

Our own Dom Moore is a good example of a smart player that doesn't stop moving his legs to be effective in that bottom line role. A lot of it has to do with how hard he skate, how intense his pushes are, and how hard he fights on the boards. If Moore isn't moving his feet, he isn't effective.

With OL I think he is a more cerebral player than your average bottom 6 forward, but to play that role, he has to push the pace every shift.

 

[Mikos87]

All the good prospects with size go very, very early, usually top 5, but no later than top 10. After that, you are dealing with players whose skill is more imagined than real. Everyone is hoping to get an Eric Lindros type player and having one player like Getzlaf succeed is enough for the GMs to draft big guys with late first rounders for the next 10 years.

Right before the 2011 draft, I posted statistics here showing that for every inch of height, the player's chances to make the NHL drop when taking the draft position into account.

This sounds blatantly wrong because obviously the bigger the player, the better. But that's why I underlined the above. When you have a big kid, he is nearly always overrated. A big kid with good skill will go in the top-5. When you are drafting at #20, you can't help but get someone who's not perfect. After all, there aren't 20 perfect players in any draft.

At #20, the player must have severe deficiencies in his game or else 19 teams wouldn't have passed on him. For a big guy (assuming he's not coming off a bad injury), the usual flaw is his lack of skill. But because skill can be imagined, while size cannot, scouts (and even more so fans) tend to ignore it. This is particularly so since the more physically developed prospects can often run up junior points just by dominating other kids physically. When this becomes impossible against adults in the pros, the dire lack of skill that caused the 6-3 230 pound forward to fall to #20 is exposed.

There are exceptions, of course. One such exception was Kreider, who didn't lack skill, but was extremely raw and therefore, high risk. He worked out, Jessiman did not. Going 1-for-2 is actually very good when it comes to big forwards outside of the top-10.

Perfect example is Anthony Mantha. No compete level what so ever. A guy like Mantha will find himself in the minors after taking a few hits at the NHL level. Just doesn't compete. 6'5" 220 and can score and shoot, but just doesn't compete.

Kreider was also 6'2" 200 his draft season and only played 25 games of low tier HS hockey. There wasn't much of a book on him outside of Gordie Clarke who lives near where Kreider played his HS hockey.

You are totally right, it is very very rare a player with both size and skill get drafted outside the top 10. Some teams are now taking non-skilled forward with size in the 1st round because they know they'll have a safe 3rd or 4th line player like a Tom Wilson or McCarron.

Just a few years ago, those picks would be late 2nd, early 3rd rounders. These days, if a forward has size and can skate, he will get taken early regardless of upside. This year a kid like Alex Tuch is going to go before the 20th pick because he has the best size speed quotient outside of the consensus top forwards. His upside is non-existent compared to a Dal Colle, Perlini, or Ritchie, who all have size and scoring ability, this draft is packed with skilled forwards, but most a small. Tuch will get taken before a bunch of them.

 

[Raspewtin]

For those who follow Greenville, can Sam Noreau push for a roster spot with the Pack next year?

 

[nyr2k2]

For those who follow Greenville, can Sam Noreau push for a roster spot with the Pack next year?

I don't follow Greenville, but from the little I saw of Noreau during his brief stint with the Pack, I think he'll be able to. He didn't look over-matched at the AHL level. He didn't do anything to stand out, but he didn't look bad.

 

[Raspewtin]

I don't follow Greenville, but from the little I saw of Noreau during his brief stint with the Pack, I think he'll be able to. He didn't look over-matched at the AHL level. He didn't do anything to stand out, but he didn't look bad.

That's what you want from a guy like Sam. Nothing flashy, keep it simple, play hard.

Have some hope that he can make it as a bottom pair d-man in the NHL.

 

[NYR Viper]

For those who follow Greenville, can Sam Noreau push for a roster spot with the Pack next year?

Yes I don't see why not. He doesn't make dumb mistakes because he plays such a simple game.

I don't follow Greenville, but from the little I saw of Noreau during his brief stint with the Pack, I think he'll be able to. He didn't look over-matched at the AHL level. He didn't do anything to stand out, but he didn't look bad.

Exactly.

That's what you want from a guy like Sam. Nothing flashy, keep it simple, play hard.

Have some hope that he can make it as a bottom pair d-man in the NHL.

I still think he can.


The Rangers system as a whole has not been this deep in a long time. People like to crap on it but it's a fact. They are doing the right thing with St. Croix and Noreau. Get them playing significant minutes in all situations and then bring them up when those minutes are available next year.

People are used to seeing these smaller, skilled d-men making the NHL soon after being drafted. The bigger players take longer to develop as I have mentioned before. It's all about leg and core strength in hockey so if you grow from 5' to 6'4 in a year and a half, it is almost impossible to keep your strength where it needs to be. That's why McIlrath was a bit of a freak. He was already solidly built at draft time.

Noreau will need at least another couple of years, but there is no reason he can't become an Erskine-like defenseman.

 

[Dagoon44]

For those who follow Greenville, can Sam Noreau push for a roster spot with the Pack next year?

I spoke at length with Bob Crawford about Sammy the Bull and he said
he looks solid out there and made the plays that needed to be made.. he was solid not stand out but also didn't have to be in the minutes he played..