2001-02 Norris Trophy Revisit

[Felidae]

Every Norris win in the 2000s was won by a clear margin (some a bit close, others not so much)... except this one.

A rare (the only?) Occasion where 2 players from the same team compete in a close race for the Norris trophy.

Lidstrom had just 1 more 1st place vote than Chelios, though the gap slightly widened in 2nd and 3rd place votes, but it was still close.


Here are some of the stats..

Lidstrom had 59 points which led all defenseman and 9 goals. 20 more points and 3 more goals than Chelios.

Lidstrom also averaged 28 minutes a night which again, led the league. 3 more minutes than Chelios. However, this is due to Lidstrom's TOI on the PP was 5 minutes as opposed to Chelios, who was just under 2 minutes. So they essentially had the same TOI SH and EV

Lidstrom averaged 5 minutes SH, 2nd in the league. Chelios just 5 seconds below that, good for 4th most in the league.


However, the one stat Chelios has over Lidstrom is +/-, and it's no small gap either.

Chelios led the league with a +40, 10 more than 2nd best in the league, and 27 more than Lidstrom.

Of course, +/- is a questionable stat, but they were also on the same team. This may have more to do with deployment and/or linemates rather than Chelios having an edge defensively, but I'll leave that one for the people who watched the Wings regularly at the time. (Especially curious about Red wings fans opinions on who was better this year)


So, was this a case like 2010-11 where narrative came into play and they wanted to give a HHOF defenseman one last shot at the Norris, or was him being so close to Lidstrom in voting legitimately deserved? Maybe he even deserved the win over Lidstrom? Or perhaps someone else entirely?

Click to read more...

 

[MadLuke]

Chelios was also a by a giant margin team leading +/- in the playoff as well that year (+15, everyone else at +4,5,6,7), but he did it taking 100 more PIM than Lidstrom too, that could have cost the wings 10 net goals.

 

[The Panther]

Not really a Wings fan, but my opinion would be that Lidstrom was pretty clearly the better player by this point.

The plus / minus difference I would guess is down to Lidstrom playing against the other teams' best players more often.

 

[norrisnick]

Not really a Wings fan, but my opinion would be that Lidstrom was pretty clearly the better player by this point.

The plus / minus difference I would guess is down to Lidstrom playing against the other teams' best players more often.

Pretty much. Cheli was rock solid on the 2nd pairing. He had a better partner for most of the season as well with a young Jiri Fischer. Jiri's size and mobility was a perfect match for Chelios. But, he was also on the 2nd pairing.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Chelios had a 1.69 GAA at even strength - a stunning result, even on a strong team, even during the DPE. (In fact, the actual number is probably lower - there are probably a few SH goals baked into that number that need to be backed out).

Playing in front of the same goaltending, Lidstrom had a 2.62 GAA (same comment about SH goals). A quick calculation for some of the other top defensive defensemen - Pronger was at 2.46, Stevens was 2.35, Hatcher was 2.17, and Foote was 2.32.

At the time, there seemed to be no doubt that Lidstrom was the best defenseman in the league. Surprisingly their offensive production was the same at ES (even though, from what I recall, Lidstrom was more of a catalyst, and Chelios was along for the ride). But Lidstrom was by far more productive on the powerplay (leading all defensemen in PP scoring - granted, Chelios had fewer opportunities, but he was still much less productive per minute). And, as mentioned, the difference penalties is substantial (Chelios took 28 extra minors).

I don't think there's much of a case for anyone but Lidstrom here. But this was an all-time great defensive performance from Chelios.

 

[JackSlater]

I don't think this one is particularly contentious. Chelios seemed to always get the benefit of the doubt in award voting so it looks close I guess but Lidstrom was better. Chelios was better defensively than Lidstrom was that year but Lidstrom was much more valuable in offence and in transition than Chelios was, regardless of some quirks in the stats. Still it was not really a particularly dominant Lidstrom year by his own standard and as the voting indicates he could have lost it if another defenceman had a great year.

There are a few contenders I guess. Pronger would be the next best bet, but he was never going to win the trophy with how his scoring regressed compared to the previous year, when he was coasting to a easy Norris. Blake and Gonchar finished ahead of Pronger in all star voting, which doesn't shock me since Pronger often fared worse than he deserved in voting but he was better. Blake was in a fairly similar spot to Lidstrom in Detroit, but Lidstrom was better. Gonchar was good offensively but I never liked his game,

I'd give Lidstrom a small lead over his competitors, but not small enough to make it contentious.

 

[MadLuke]

The plus / minus difference I would guess is down to Lidstrom playing against the other teams' best players more often.

Similar split home vs road and Chelios pair played (a little bit) more minutes at EV than Lidstrom, not sure how much he could choose his spot, specially if he was paired with the superior defensive partner.

@Home
Lidstrom +9
Chelios +28

@road
Lidstrom +4
Chelios +12

For +/- like all player that play on the powerplay, they get hurt versus someone that do not, Detroit was -7 on the PP that season, Lidstrom played a lot and probably got most of those.

I do not remember any controversy about Lidstrom being ahead of Chelios ever when they were both on the Wings, did seem clear to be the case, being one of the best player with the puck in his own zone, one of the best power play blueliner and in the conversation always for the best defensive player in the league.

 

[Michael Farkas]

THN had:
1. Chelios
2. Lidstrom
3. Gonchar
4. Blake

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Every Norris win in the 2000s was won by a clear margin (some a bit close, others not so much)... except this one.

A rare (the only?) Occasion where 2 players from the same team compete in a close race for the Norris trophy.

Lidstrom had just 1 more 1st place vote than Chelios, though the gap slightly widened in 2nd and 3rd place votes, but it was still close.


Here are some of the stats..

Lidstrom had 59 points which led all defenseman and 9 goals. 20 more points and 3 more goals than Chelios.

Lidstrom also averaged 28 minutes a night which again, led the league. 3 more minutes than Chelios. However, this is due to Lidstrom's TOI on the PP was 5 minutes as opposed to Chelios, who was just under 2 minutes. So they essentially had the same TOI SH and EV

Lidstrom averaged 5 minutes SH, 2nd in the league. Chelios just 5 seconds below that, good for 4th most in the league.


However, the one stat Chelios has over Lidstrom is +/-, and it's no small gap either.

Chelios led the league with a +40, 10 more than 2nd best in the league, and 27 more than Lidstrom.

Of course, +/- is a questionable stat, but they were also on the same team. This may have more to do with deployment and/or linemates rather than Chelios having an edge defensively, but I'll leave that one for the people who watched the Wings regularly at the time. (Especially curious about Red wings fans opinions on who was better this year)


So, was this a case like 2010-11 where narrative came into play and they wanted to give a HHOF defenseman one last shot at the Norris, or was him being so close to Lidstrom in voting legitimately deserved? Maybe he even deserved the win over Lidstrom? Or perhaps someone else entirely?

Lidstrom easily deserved the win.

If we had accurate corsi/fenwick stats from this era I'd imagine something crazy like 65% or higher for Lidstrom during this time. He was that good.

 

[GMR]

I know it was the DPE, but Chelios scored 39 points that year. That's not sniffing Norris votes these days.

He might be the last player we see with such a high finish in Norris voting despite meager offensive numbers.

 

[MadLuke]

He might be the last player we see with such a high finish in Norris voting despite meager offensive numbers.

Chara was second with 41 pts just before the lockout.

 

[overpass]

Lidstrom easily deserved the win.

If we had accurate corsi/fenwick stats from this era I'd imagine something crazy like 65% or higher for Lidstrom during this time. He was that good.

I doubt Lidstrom's corsi for or fenwick for percentages approached 60%, let alone 65%. They were probably about 55%, which is what his GF% was for that season. He wasn't a dominant plus-minus player on those early 00s Wings.

In fact, I think analytics would give Chris Pronger the edge for on-ice effectiveness this season. Penalty taking might tip the edge back to Lidstrom, as he only took 10 minor penalties and Pronger took 45,

I'm OK with Lidstrom getting this Norris trophy but it's a close one.

 

[GMR]

Chara was second with 41 pts just before the lockout.

From memory, Gonchar led defenseman in scoring that year. He didn't have 60 points.

Dark times for scoring.

 

[MadLuke]

From memory, Gonchar led defenseman in scoring that year. He didn't have 60 points.

Dark times for scoring.

Maybe Chara winning it with 50pts in 2009 is more "impressive" in that regard.

2004:
Gonchar: 58
Niedermwayer: 54
Pronger: 54
....
Chara: 41 pts, 13th among Ds with Norris vote, second place norris, but not close, Niedermayer won cleanly, 72-19 first place

Chara 41pts was 70% of the first place.

2009:
Green: 73
Markov: 64
Lidstrom: 59
...
Chara: 50, tie for 10th among Ds won the Norris by a little over Green.

50pts was 68% of the first place.

When the Ds with the most point is a Green or Gonchar, it open voters mind

 

[JackSlater]

I doubt Lidstrom's corsi for or fenwick for percentages approached 60%, let alone 65%. They were probably about 55%, which is what his GF% was for that season. He wasn't a dominant plus-minus player on those early 00s Wings.

In fact, I think analytics would give Chris Pronger the edge for on-ice effectiveness this season. Penalty taking might tip the edge back to Lidstrom, as he only took 10 minor penalties and Pronger took 45,

I'm OK with Lidstrom getting this Norris trophy but it's a close one.

I think you can make a good case that Pronger was better at even strength. I'd believe it on the penalty kill too. The penalties hurt a lot though, and I recall thinking that Lidstrom was a much better power play performer pretty constantly. I'd have Pronger at 2 and I could squint and see him around 1.

That Pronger didn't end up on a post-season all star team just adds to how mystified I am at how Pronger's reputation (very highly regarded, generally second best of his generation among defencemen) didn't match his voting results outside of the anomalous 2000 Hart.

 

[norrisnick]

I think you can make a good case that Pronger was better at even strength. I'd believe it on the penalty kill too. The penalties hurt a lot though, and I recall thinking that Lidstrom was a much better power play performer pretty constantly. I'd have Pronger at 2 and I could squint and see him around 1.

That Pronger didn't end up on a post-season all star team just adds to how mystified I am at how Pronger's reputation (very highly regarded, generally second best of his generation among defencemen) didn't match his voting results outside of the anomalous 2000 Hart.

I think a big factor with Pronger is that he was very mercurial. He could hurt his team just as easily as he could shut down a rush against. Be it a penalty, suspension, running out of position for a hit, a few freak injuries, etc... When he was on, he was great. But you couldn't always count on him being there.

Like a more extreme version of Chelios. EDIT - Montreal/Chicago Chelios. Not the mellow Detroit one.

 

[JackSlater]

I think a big factor with Pronger is that he was very mercurial. He could hurt his team just as easily as he could shut down a rush against. Be it a penalty, suspension, running out of position for a hit, a few freak injuries, etc... When he was on, he was great. But you couldn't always count on him being there.

Like a more extreme version of Chelios. EDIT - Montreal/Chicago Chelios. Not the mellow Detroit one.

Yeah, this is generally why Lidstrom was clearly better. You knew you were getting excellence from Lidstrom game to game and year to year. More of a gamble with Pronger, where he could play at that level even for a season... but you couldn't be certain. I do think that post-lockout Pronger ironed out more of these issues.

 

[norrisnick]

Yeah, this is generally why Lidstrom was clearly better. You knew you were getting excellence from Lidstrom game to game and year to year. More of a gamble with Pronger, where he could play at that level even for a season... but you couldn't be certain. I do think that post-lockout Pronger ironed out more of these issues.

I don't think Pronger changed all that much at all, so much as the league inexplicably decided... we're only going to step in so much and whatever else happens happens. Like a one-man Broadstreet Bullies. He still got called for a lot, but not nearly as much as he should have.

 

[JackSlater]

I don't think Pronger changed all that much at all, so much as the league inexplicably decided... we're only going to step in so much and whatever else happens happens. Like a one-man Broadstreet Bullies. He still got called for a lot, but not nearly as much as he should have.

I heard Pronger on a podcast and he and the hosts, who were former players of the post-lockout era, had a laugh about the refs basically allowing Pronger to crosscheck people with near impunity. There's something there.

 

[norrisnick]

I heard Pronger on a podcast and he and the hosts, who were former players of the post-lockout era, had a laugh about the refs basically allowing Pronger to crosscheck people with near impunity. There's something there.

And strangely it felt like a night and day difference and he got more leniency after the infraction crackdown post-lockout. Like a new standard was sent out, Chris didn't read the memo, and the refs were all "well shit, um... Ignore this guy..."

 

[JackSlater]

And strangely it felt like a night and day difference and he got more leniency after the infraction crackdown post-lockout. Like a new standard was sent out, Chris didn't read the memo, and the refs were all "well shit, um... Ignore this guy..."

It just seems to happen once that type of defenceman becomes a veteran. Chelios had that, Weber had it after Pronger did.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

It just seems to happen once that type of defenceman becomes a veteran. Chelios had that, Weber had it after Pronger did.

no one got more rope than rob blake

it was ridiculous

 

[JackSlater]

no one got more rope than rob blake

it was ridiculous

After the Dubois debacle it looks like he still has it.