GDT: #20 | Hurricanes at Flyers | Wednesday, November 20, 2024 | 7:30 PM | TNT/Max/NBCSP, 93.3 FM

[BernieParent]

You have a pool?! HF boards party at Bern's place.

Well, we used to. After extending it past its period of usefulness and with practically nobody using it, we noticed that it was falling into disrepair. I tried putting individual pieces online for sale but they looked pretty used and dirty so I got no offers, and I ended up throwing them out. The outer lining was picked up for scrap.

It seems like this is some kind of metaphor.

 

[deadhead]

TK was 10th in points for RWs last year, 9th in ES production, while playing on a team and a coach that suppresses offensive production. Make that all forwards, he's 44th, in a league that has 192 top 6 spots.

In what universe is that "middle of the pack?" He's in the top quarter for all forwards, and in the top 15% for Top 6 RWs, with it being known he was still trending upwards. Nobody who has watched him is remotely surprised to see him on his way to 80-90ish points this season, we've pegged that as his potential for years, and he's doing it on a team that discourages scoring.

If the Flyers couldn't put that up for sale and do better than one late first (a return worse than what Tarasenko, who TK is better than, got in 2023 when Ottawa wasn't involved in losing value on him as they did in 2024).

Assuming Briere can't get proper value for TK puts them him in the same GMing category as Ottawa...which, yeah, we who are honest about the team already know they're down there. But it's surprising to see you put them there, since you think that's a defense of them.

How bad are they actually managed if lumping them in with Ottawa in terms of value extraction is a defense?

Reading comprehension is a lost art.

TK last summer was not a premier asset, middle of the pack 1st line forward.

That's a good thing, but not going to get you a king's ransom in a trade.
Reinhart got #28 and Levi (goalie prospect, similar to say Bjarnason).

People have exaggerated expectations of trades, the going rate isn't that exciting.
Premier assets rarely get traded, here are the biggest moves the last few years:

Lindholm for #28, 4th rd, Kuzmenko
Tkachuk for 2025 FLA 1st, Weegar and Huberdeau (both in walk seasons)
Eichel & 3rd for Tuch, Kreps, #16 and #64

The worst trade:
DeBrincat for #7, #39, and 2024 3rd (Ottawa didn't top 10 protect their pick)

 

[Beef Invictus]

Reading comprehension is a lost art.

TK last summer was not a premier asset, middle of the pack 1st line forward.

That's a good thing, but not going to get you a king's ransom in a trade.
Reinhart got #28 and Levi (goalie prospect, similar to say Bjarnason).

People have exaggerated expectations of trades, the going rate isn't that exciting.
Premier assets rarely get traded, here are the biggest moves the last few years:

Lindholm for #28, 4th rd, Kuzmenko
Tkachuk for 2025 FLA 1st, Weegar and Huberdeau (both in walk seasons)
Eichel & 3rd for Tuch, Kreps, #16 and #64

The worst trade:
DeBrincat for #7, #39, and 2024 3rd (Ottawa didn't top 10 protect their pick)

I just showed that to be false, unless you have a very strange definition of middle. Evidently as strange as your ever-nebulous definition of "elite."

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The problem has been the change of strategic vision every three or four years.

Heck, Hextall changed on the basis of a heater by Mason, he was rebuilding, they made the POs, he stopped rebuilding, they flopped, he traded Schenn, rebuilding, they made the POs, stop.
Then Holmgren fired Hextall and told CF to go "all in."
Then when it imploded, CF couldn't decide if he was coming or going.

At least this group seems to have a consistent vision and are sticking with it.

We'll have a better idea after this summer, I think the real housecleaning will come this summer as they reshape the roster, Briere has been very patient so far, but at some point you have to decide who will be part of the team in 2027-28 and get value for the rest.

Hextall stopped rebuilding?! What?!

 

[Beef Invictus]

Hextall stopped rebuilding?! What?!

Here I thought the problem (aside from not paying sufficient homage to Clarke) was he never had a plan to stop.

 

[Boocowski]

Reading comprehension is a lost art.

TK last summer was not a premier asset, middle of the pack 1st line forward.

That's a good thing, but not going to get you a king's ransom in a trade.
Reinhart got #28 and Levi (goalie prospect, similar to say Bjarnason).

People have exaggerated expectations of trades, the going rate isn't that exciting.
Premier assets rarely get traded, here are the biggest moves the last few years:

Lindholm for #28, 4th rd, Kuzmenko
Tkachuk for 2025 FLA 1st, Weegar and Huberdeau (both in walk seasons)
Eichel & 3rd for Tuch, Kreps, #16 and #64

The worst trade:
DeBrincat for #7, #39, and 2024 3rd (Ottawa didn't top 10 protect their pick)

Reinhart was one year away from UFA status. Tkachuk was not staying. Lindholm was a pending UFA. The only guy here that was locked up was Eichel and he demanded an exit due to that back/spine disc issue that the Sabres didn't agree with him on. All of these things lowered the returns.

TK has a long term deal so if somebody wanted him they'd have a set deal. Makes a big difference. Before we signed him he was RFA not UFA. That matters too.

I would not trade him though. Glad we didn't.

 

[renberg]

The players they move the next year or so will be those who can't play the style that the FO wants, it's not Torts dictating to Briere, they're on the same page.

It's pretty obvious they don't have the talent to play the style of hockey they want to implement (nor do they have the talent to play NJ/Toronto finesse hockey either).

Good coaches get the best possible out of the players that they have. They change schemes of play to fit their talents.
It does look like some of the players do not have the talent to play the style of hockey that Tortorella and past coaches want to implement. That begs the question of then why were they drafted?
Since the club can’t trade everyone, the solution is to ditch the coach who can’t utilize what he has in front of him and find someone who can.

 

[Tripod]

Here I thought the problem (aside from not paying sufficient homage to Clarke) was he never had a plan to stop.

He can't keep track of all his lies

 

[deadhead]

Hextall stopped rebuilding?! What?!

He made his trades at the 2015 TDL (Coburn and Kimmo).
As well as Hartnell and McGinn for 3rd, 4th and Umberger.

After that, minor moves until trading Schenn in the summer of 2017.

Summer 2015, moved out Grossman, Pronger for Gagner, 4th
Jan 2016, Vinnie, L Schenn for Weal, 3rd rd
TDL 2017 Streit for Filppula and 4th
June 2017 Cousins for 5th

FAs
[Holmgren traded for then signed AMac to 6/S30M deal]
6/11/14 signed PEB (29)
7/2/14 signed Nick Schultz (32)
8/5/14 signed MDZ (24)
8/7/14 signed Ryan White (27)
7/1/15 signed Neuvirth (27)
??? signed Evgeny Medvedev (32)
7/1/16 signed Dale Weise (28)
7/1/17 signed Brian Elliott (32)

 

[Beef Invictus]

He made his trades at the 2015 TDL (Coburn and Kimmo).
As well as Hartnell and McGinn for 3rd, 4th and Umberger.

After that, minor moves until trading Schenn in the summer of 2017.

Summer 2015, moved out Grossman, Pronger for Gagner, 4th
Jan 2016, Vinnie, L Schenn for Weal, 3rd rd
TDL 2017 Streit for Filppula and 4th
June 2017 Cousins for 5th

FAs
[Holmgren traded for then signed AMac to 6/S30M deal]
6/11/14 signed PEB (29)
7/2/14 signed Nick Schultz (32)
8/5/14 signed MDZ (24)
8/7/14 signed Ryan White (27)
7/1/15 signed Neuvirth (27)
??? signed Evgeny Medvedev (32)
7/1/16 signed Dale Weise (28)
7/1/17 signed Brian Elliott (32)

He spent all of his time accumulating prospects. Not buying. Not burning assets. The team talked about how they had to move on from him because it was time to move from building to competing.

Why are you trying to rewrite this as if we don't all remember it clearly?

 

[deadhead]

Good coaches get the best possible out of the players that they have. They change schemes of play to fit their talents.
It does look like some of the players do not have the talent to play the style of hockey that Tortorella and past coaches want to implement. That begs the question of then why were they drafted?
Since the club can’t trade everyone, the solution is to ditch the coach who can’t utilize what he has in front of him and find someone who can.

Of course you can "trade everyone."

When Brind'Amour took over they revamped the roster, when Sullivan took over in Pittsburgh, they moved out a half dozen starters and brought up a bunch of players from the AHL.

Briere has only had two drafts, does anyone know what scheme CF was drafting for? I guess AV until 2022 draft then ???

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Of course you can "trade everyone."

When Brind'Amour took over they revamped the roster, when Sullivan took over in Pittsburgh, they moved out a half dozen starters and brought up a bunch of players from the AHL.

Briere has only had two drafts, does anyone know what scheme CF was drafting for? I guess AV until 2022 draft then ???

My heart started rattling in my chest when I got to drafting for a hockey scheme.

 

[deadhead]

He spent all of his time accumulating prospects. Not buying. Not burning assets. The team talked about how they had to move on from him because it was time to move from building to competing.

Why are you trying to rewrite this as if we don't all remember it clearly?

He signed a bunch of veteran FAs and promoted prospects like VdV, Manning, Weal, Hagg.
The core players were inherited from Homgren - see the 2018-19 roster (5th season of rebuild):

Holmgren: Giroux, Couts, Voracek, Simmonds, Raffl, Laughton,
Hextall: TK, JVR, Patrick, Lindblom, Weise, Lehtera, Varone

Holmgren: Ghost, AMac, Manning, Hagg
Hextall: Provorov, Sanheim, Gudas, Myers/Folin

 

[JojoTheWhale]

He signed a bunch of veteran FAs and promoted prospects like VdV, Manning, Weal, Hagg.
The core players were inherited from Homgren - see the 2018-19 roster (5th season of rebuild):

Holmgren: Giroux, Couts, Voracek, Simmonds, Raffl, Laughton,
Hextall: TK, JVR, Patrick, Lindblom, Weise, Lehtera, Varone

Holmgren: Ghost, AMac, Manning, Hagg
Hextall: Provorov, Sanheim, Gudas, Myers/Folin

Halfway through this post, Hathaway got another extension.

 

[deadhead]

Halfway through this post, Hathaway got another extension.

And skated past Dale Weiss.

 

[Magua]

Like I said, Carolina is the blueprint

Other than polar opposite drafting philosophies, underutilizing analytics, playing an anti-puck possession style, not understanding (first hand) how Carolina buys low/sells high, and not hiring Tulsky......I see what you mean about the blueprint because Tortorella in an interview said he likes how they forecheck. Quite similarly, I model my notepad stick figures after the paintings of Peter Paul Rubens.

 

[Beef Invictus]

He signed a bunch of veteran FAs and promoted prospects like VdV, Manning, Weal, Hagg.
The core players were inherited from Homgren - see the 2018-19 roster (5th season of rebuild):

Holmgren: Giroux, Couts, Voracek, Simmonds, Raffl, Laughton,
Hextall: TK, JVR, Patrick, Lindblom, Weise, Lehtera, Varone

Holmgren: Ghost, AMac, Manning, Hagg
Hextall: Provorov, Sanheim, Gudas, Myers/Folin

And the whole time stuck with his plan of building through the draft. Didn't deviate. Didn't sell. Our complaint was that he was going way too slow for it to add up. The only reason he signed veterans was because he debuted the still-in-place development philosophy of "Needless Struggle." They were a means to an end for him, blocking prospects so they could build character, because he was still bitter that he had to wait in the minors. He would sign anyone necessary to create an obstacle for prospects and pretend they could overcome it. It's wild to pretend that his philosophy wasn't one of endless slow-boil rebuild, or that he ever deviated from that.

What made Fletcher worse is that he signed a bunch of slobs with the idea that they were actually good. Totally different motivations.

 

[renberg]

Of course you can "trade everyone."

When Brind'Amour took over they revamped the roster, when Sullivan took over in Pittsburgh, they moved out a half dozen starters and brought up a bunch of players from the AHL.

Briere has only had two drafts, does anyone know what scheme CF was drafting for? I guess AV until 2022 draft then ???

AIR, Sullivan didn’t trade Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Kessel or Lafleur. It was the roster fill ins that were moved out.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Other than polar opposite drafting philosophies, underutilizing analytics, playing an anti-puck possession style, not understanding (first hand) how Carolina buys low/sells high, and not hiring Tulsky......I see what you mean about the blueprint because Tortorella in an interview said he likes how they forecheck. Quite similarly, I model my notepad stick figures after the paintings of Peter Paul Rubens.

He likes how they forecheck. He won't ever personally allow most of what they do, but he likes it.

 

[deadhead]

AIR, Sullivan didn’t trade Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Kessel or Lafleur. It was the roster fill ins that were moved out.

Bolded are players who made significant contributions during their Cup run.
Now this was a team that fell short and took drastic steps to get back.
This level of turnover in one season is rare, but Sullivan was the AHL coach, so he knew his players

Rutherford was the GM, and he added major pieces:
7/1/15 Kessel & 2nd for Kapanen, 1st, 3rd
7/28/15 Bonino, Clendening & 2nd for Sutter & 3rd
7/28/15 signed Eric Fehr
8/6/15 signed Matt Cullen
12/14/15 Daley D for Scuderi
1/16/16 Hagelin for Perron, Clendening
2/27/16 Justin Schultz for 3rd

promoted Maata, Dumoulin, Rust, Sheary, Bennett, Kuhnhackl, Murray