GDT: #20 | Hurricanes at Flyers | Wednesday, November 20, 2024 | 7:30 PM | TNT/Max/NBCSP, 93.3 FM

[Illini Flyer]

Like I said, Carolina is the blueprint:

Flyers must be looking at it backwards

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's the Hextall rebuild without really rebuilding approach all over again. The only difference is that Hextall made better use of the few assets he did trade.

I'm not complaining about keeping Konecny though. I'm glad we kept him. But Briere will have to do a better job at building around him. So far drafting Michkov with the 7th pick has been his biggest accomplishment.

Oh god help me I did an actual LOL, but "Hextall Rebuild without the rebuild" really is a perfect description of whatever this is

 

[Beef Invictus]

So we are going to call it a 5 year rebuild every time a new GM is hired. Got it

We have been in Year 2 of a 5 Year Rebuild since 2021.

Which is a significant downgrade from the prior many years of "just two years away."

 

[Beef Invictus]

Like I said, Carolina is the blueprint:

"We're playing basically the same style, checking forward and all that," Tortorella said at morning skate. "I'm not sure how Roddy teaches it, but we want to press, we want to check forward, we want to take chances. I think it looks similar. I don't think we're as fast, I think they're a bit deeper team than we are, but that is going to be the blueprint. As long as I have the opportunity to coach this team, that is going to be the blueprint.

"I think it's important to have that blueprint for management as we start drafting players toward that, too. The style of play is a very important thing. It gives management and scouts the opportunity to kind of zero in on what type of players we're looking for."

Flyers have become better at forcing turnovers in the D-zone and neutral zone, but converting them into possession and scoring chances is where they fall short.

They definitely need more speed/size combos, guys who can skate with opposing players, but also big enough to win board battles and keep the puck. It's not so much pure speed but good speed and quickness with high motors.

Carolina has few forwards under 190 lbs, Aho 6'0 180, Drury 5'11 186, Jarvis 5'10 184 (IR)
Two small D-men in Ghost and Walker, three big ones in Orlov. Slavin and Burns.

If they want to be Carolina now after years of trying to be the Islanders then they can get there if they merely stop everything they're doing and do the complete opposite.

These people would watch a Space-X landing and go "that's the goal" and begin digging in the yard for the septic tank to use as a rocket body.

 

[Flyer lurker]

lovely 3rd period
Fedotov's intro song should be

 

[Beef Invictus]

Most rebuilds take longer than 5 years, people want to tank, that would mean they wouldn't be competitive until 2030+, since you'd have to trade away a number of younger players and then replace them through the draft (not just land 1 or 2 in the top 5, but a number in the top 10 as well).

Since teams almost never trade top 10 picks, those trades would garner you a lot of late 1st, late 2nd rd picks.

The teams that pick high for a few years tend to be veteran laden teams with little in the pipeline that grow old quickly and when they dump those contracts, have little talent - think the Pens in a couple years. It's rarely done deliberately, it's more "the party's over" and the only thing you can do is build back from ground zero.

Yes, rebuilds can take a while. That's why the second they lucked into Michkov I started saying they needed to sell everything not of value for his prime to rebuild into something ready to compete when he hits.

They have yet to start. There is no rebuild. They're two years behind, and aren't showing any sign of beginning. Every season that passes without starting is one season of contention crossed off of Michkov's career.

Oh, and no rebuild can begin without first firing the entirety of the front office. Because these people are incapable of rebuilding.

 

[deadhead]

If they want to be Carolina now after years of trying to be the Islanders then they can get there if they merely stop everything they're doing and do the complete opposite.

These people would watch a Space-X landing and go "that's the goal" and begin digging in the yard for the septic tank to use as a rocket body.

The problem has been the change of strategic vision every three or four years.

Heck, Hextall changed on the basis of a heater by Mason, he was rebuilding, they made the POs, he stopped rebuilding, they flopped, he traded Schenn, rebuilding, they made the POs, stop.
Then Holmgren fired Hextall and told CF to go "all in."
Then when it imploded, CF couldn't decide if he was coming or going.

At least this group seems to have a consistent vision and are sticking with it.

We'll have a better idea after this summer, I think the real housecleaning will come this summer as they reshape the roster, Briere has been very patient so far, but at some point you have to decide who will be part of the team in 2027-28 and get value for the rest.

 

[BernieParent]

"I think they're a bit deeper team ..."

My swimming pool talking about Lake Superior.

 

[Larry44]

Yes, rebuilds can take a while. That's why the second they lucked into Michkov I started saying they needed to sell everything not of value for his prime to rebuild into something ready to compete when he hits.

They have yet to start. There is no rebuild. They're two years behind, and aren't showing any sign of beginning. Every season that passes without starting is one season of contention crossed off of Michkov's career.

Oh, and no rebuild can begin without first firing the entirety of the front office. Because these people are incapable of rebuilding.

They are going to Giroux Michkov's career, unless he can force his way out.

 

[CerpinTaxt]

They are going to Giroux Michkov's career, unless he can force his way out.

Michkov probably counting the seconds to FA

 

[Beef Invictus]

The problem has been the change of strategic vision every three or four years.

Heck, Hextall changed on the basis of a heater by Mason, he was rebuilding, they made the POs, he stopped rebuilding, they flopped, he traded Schenn, rebuilding, they made the POs, stop.
Then Holmgren fired Hextall and told CF to go "all in."
Then when it imploded, CF couldn't decide if he was coming or going.

At least this group seems to have a consistent vision and are sticking with it.

We'll have a better idea after this summer, I think the real housecleaning will come this summer as they reshape the roster, Briere has been very patient so far, but at some point you have to decide who will be part of the team in 2027-28 and get value for the rest.

The strategic vision is notoriously the same as it's been since the end of the last decade and that's the entire problem.

You were certain the real housecleaning was coming last TDL and summer. It didn't. It isn't happening now, either. These people live in terror of self-reflection. They aren't going to determine they've screwed up. They're going to latch onto every single excuse they can. They'll find their scapegoat. Hell, Hart gave them a perma-scapegoat.

It is very negative to repeatedly insist they intend to clean house, because when they never do it means they can't succeed at the most basic managerial tasks.

 

[deadhead]

What was left to houseclean?
If you think trading Seeler and Hathaway for mid-round picks to start Ginning and Marody is a rebuild . . .
The only player who should have been moved is Laughton, and I expect he's on his way out.

Would trading Sanheim for a 1st have helped the rebuild? (only if you want a complete tank).
Would trading TK in the summer for a late 1st accelerated the rebuild?
The only asset on a one year deal was G and they got a good return for him.
Otherwise you're giving up assets to move Couts and Risto's contracts.

 

[Beef Invictus]

What was left to houseclean?
If you think trading Seeler and Hathaway for mid-round picks to start Ginning and Marody is a rebuild . . .
The only player who should have been moved is Laughton, and I expect he's on his way out.

Would trading Sanheim for a 1st have helped the rebuild? (only if you want a complete tank).
Would trading TK in the summer for a late 1st accelerated the rebuild?
The only asset on a one year deal was G and they got a good return for him.
Otherwise you're giving up assets to move Couts and Risto's contracts.

You can get more than a 1st for Sanheim.
You'd get LOTS more than a late first for TK.
Yes, turning veterans into future assets is basic rebuilding
The Giroux return was trash.
You assured us Risto has positive value.


If you think these listed returns are the best this management group can manage, you ought to be leading the charge to call for their firing. This is extremely bleak, if you think listing out these peaks of their capabilities serves as a defense. It makes them look vastly worse. You're lower on them than I am if you think they'd lose a TK trade that badly.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Yes, rebuilds can take a while. That's why the second they lucked into Michkov I started saying they needed to sell everything not of value for his prime to rebuild into something ready to compete when he hits.

They have yet to start. There is no rebuild. They're two years behind, and aren't showing any sign of beginning. Every season that passes without starting is one season of contention crossed off of Michkov's career.

Oh, and no rebuild can begin without first firing the entirety of the front office. Because these people are incapable of rebuilding.

i would bet the farm MM is gone before this Org. even pulls the curtain back on a actual rebuild.

i cant see someone like MM staying here and wasting his career on a annual loser franchise going nowere spinnin tires in the mud

They are going to Giroux Michkov's career, unless he can force his way out.

100%...

 

[FlyerNutter]

Konecny extension for a player that has decent miles, and a playing style that likely won’t age well.

Sanheim extension, when he should have been moved for assets prior to.

My personal favourite is Couturier.

Ignore the response that will come specifying that no good trades were found, the fact that they chose to extend all 3 of those players was such hilarious BS.

Rebuild my ass.

edit: If we are going to look at trades I will get a real kick when they most certainly move on from Farabee, Frost, and Laughton - having waited for the absolute lowest value possible. It’s the Flyer way after all. Dipshits.

 

[Beef Invictus]

i would bet the farm MM is gone before this Org. even pulls the curtain back on a actual rebuild.

i cant see someone like MM staying here and wasting his career on a annual loser franchise going nowere spinnin tires in the mud


100%...

Yeah they're already pretty deep into pulling a Lindros/Giroux with MM. Except at this rate they won't even get a Finals run.

 

[deadhead]

You can get more than a 1st for Sanheim.
You'd get LOTS more than a late first for TK.
Yes, turning veterans into future assets is basic rebuilding
The Giroux return was trash.
You assured us Risto has positive value.


If you think these listed returns are the best this management group can manage, you ought to be leading the charge to call for their firing. This is extremely bleak, if you think listing out these peaks of their capabilities serves as a defense. It makes them look vastly worse. You're lower on them than I am if you think they'd lose a TK trade that badly.

Really, show examples of actual trades, not blanket statements without evidence.

TK last summer was not a premier asset, middle of the pack 1st line forward.
Meier got San Jose #26 (2023), #42 (2024), and Fabian Zutterland (3rd line forward).
That's the ceiling, b/c Meier was considered more valuable and it was a TDL trade.

Trouba got #20 and Pionk.
Sergachev got Moser, Geekie and Utah's 2025 2nd

They got FLA's 2024 1st, Tippett and FLA 2023 3rd (Barkey) for G, that's as much as you can expect.

 

[renberg]

Maybe, it's because you know, Tort's system is complete garbage, has no real voice to these guys to keep it up and the team lacks overall skill compared to most? Yeah. If anything, it's one step closer to Torts being fired.

This is where Tortorella has been in Tampa Bay, Vancouver, NYR, Columbus. Good coaches find ways to win with the talent that they have. Poor ones find a way to put it on the players.
Right now the players are starting to figure out that Tortorella can't put the pieces together that are presently on the team and are starting to give up on him. Some players have pushed back at Tortorella. Tortorella is cutting some players' PT for no sensible reason, especially benching MM. Now Torts is pushing Briere to get rid of the malcontents, start with Frost, and bring him better players, need centers.
It''s the same old song from Tortorella wherever he's been. Never his fault; always the players or the GM.

 

[deadhead]

Frost isn't a malcontent, he's an underachiever.
If Frost was Johansen, he'd been gone a year ago.

The players they move the next year or so will be those who can't play the style that the FO wants, it's not Torts dictating to Briere, they're on the same page.

It's pretty obvious they don't have the talent to play the style of hockey they want to implement (nor do they have the talent to play NJ/Toronto finesse hockey either).

So you have three years to reshape the roster, both add talent and move young players for players who are better fits. Outside of TK, Michkov and Jett, I don't think they're wedded to any other forwards. Sanheim, York, Bonk and see how Andrae, Grans, Zamula turn out.

 

[ponder719]

Really, show examples of actual trades, not blanket statements without evidence.

I do not have the faintest clue how to explain to you that it is impossible to prove a negative. Nobody can show you an example of an actual trade if one has not happened. Actual trades not happening is the entire goddamned problem.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Really, show examples of actual trades, not blanket statements without evidence.

TK last summer was not a premier asset, middle of the pack 1st line forward.
Meier got San Jose #26 (2023), #42 (2024), and Fabian Zutterland (3rd line forward).
That's the ceiling, b/c Meier was considered more valuable and it was a TDL trade.

Trouba got #20 and Pionk.
Sergachev got Moser, Geekie and Utah's 2025 2nd

They got FLA's 2024 1st, Tippett and FLA 2023 3rd (Barkey) for G, that's as much as you can expect.

WHAT

 

[deadhead]

WHAT

The two seasons before last summer, TK ranked 67th in 5x5 points (Farabee 53rd). 75th in total points.
Now how does that translate into an "elite" forward?
He wasn't a Selke candidate or a center.

 

[freakydallas13]

My swimming pool talking about Lake Superior.

You have a pool?! HF boards party at Bern's place.

Hold on, we're not supposed to be competing until 2028/2029 now? Then how tf was resigning TK the right decision, he'll be THIRTY ONE (going on 32) years old before the team is even ready to exit the rebuild?!

 

[Beef Invictus]

TK was 10th in points for RWs last year, 9th in ES production, while playing on a team and a coach that suppresses offensive production. Make that all forwards, he's 44th, in a league that has 192 top 6 spots.

In what universe is that "middle of the pack?" He's in the top quarter for all forwards, and in the top 15% for Top 6 RWs, with it being known he was still trending upwards. Nobody who has watched him is remotely surprised to see him on his way to 80-90ish points this season, we've pegged that as his potential for years, and he's doing it on a team that discourages scoring.

If the Flyers couldn't put that up for sale and do better than one late first (a return worse than what Tarasenko, who TK is better than, got in 2023 when Ottawa wasn't involved in losing value on him as they did in 2024).

Assuming Briere can't get proper value for TK puts them him in the same GMing category as Ottawa...which, yeah, we who are honest about the team already know they're down there. But it's surprising to see you put them there, since you think that's a defense of them.

How bad are they actually managed if lumping them in with Ottawa in terms of value extraction is a defense?

 

[Beef Invictus]

The two seasons before last summer, TK ranked 67th in 5x5 points (Farabee 53rd). 75th in total points.
Now how does that translate into an "elite" forward?
He wasn't a Selke candidate or a center.

Now you're moving the goalposts and running some cherrypicking because you know you're about to get smoked on this point after looking at the real numbers.