1995-96 Mario Lemieux vs 2022-23 Connor McDavid

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

Mario all day

 

[WalterLundy]

I don't think I've had that many encounters with you, maybe you're thinking of your non-alt account? And looking through your post history, the number of times that you mention "as a Penguins fan" or "have met Mario" gives off a very "thou dost protest too much" vibe.

It just seems odd that someone who is a Penguins fan would spend the vast majority of their time on this site 1) praising McDavid 2) Praising Gretzky 3) Downplaying Lemieiux 4) Downplaying Crosby. Like one or two of the four would be understandable, but all 4 together becomes highly suspicious.

This is my only account. I mean there are ways to prove these things I say to quell your skepticism. It’s true I did get to know him a bit. I consistently say Lemieux is the second best player I personally have ever seen. That is not downplaying. I say McDavid is better than Crosby and that Crosby as of now is 5th all time. That is not downplaying. Most people agree with this.

I got to see Gretzky’s career. I thought he was the greatest like the majority so I post about him a lot because he is fun to discuss and arguably the most important hockey figure worth talking about. McDavid to me has been the best player in the world for a while now so he is usually worth talking about and is actually always relevant now. My posts are usually about big all time or best player topics because I personally don’t find it interesting to talk about the “value of Jake Guentzel” (as an example) or to debate topics I find mundane and uninteresting.

I could always do a deep dive into your post history and see if I can find any inconsistencies but I don’t care enough. Based on the posts I’ve seen from you I don’t have issues with them but I can tell where you stand on the topics that I’ve engaged in on here. If I caused any grief I apologize. Can the accusations of being a fake fan cease yet? If so that would be awesome.

 

[redwings86]

Lemieux.

 

[SillyRabbit]

I was considering adding 2021 as an option as well. Pretty sure we both think the same on that particular season. Considering 2023 was the season that won the Hart trophy tournament recently and that I was personally requested to use 23 McDavid I went with that as the option.

2021 would feel strange to use because it was an anomaly of an NHL season.

McDavid didn't compete against the entire league, he competed against a makeshift division only.

His 2023 season is without question more impressive in my eyes because he did it on an equal playing field to his peers.

 

[Staniowski]

I'd take McDavid '23 (or '24) over Lemieux '96 without question. And, notwithstanding the voting results, I think almost everybody would.

Lemieux was not close to his best in '96. He was just returning to playing after missing almost two full seasons following his back surgery in the summer of '93. He actually enjoyed the '96 season - he felt decently well, and the League was calling the interference, hooking, etc. more so than before.

But Lemieux still was not the Lemieux of old. He had lost a lot of his agility. He couldn't play a consistently strong game, even though he was still a great scorer.

With McDavid, we're talking McDavid near his best.

Healthier, much closer to his best, 5 years younger. I think it's an easy choice. A more impact player, and more likely to help a team win.

 

[WalterLundy]

2021 would feel strange to use because it was an anomaly of an NHL season.

McDavid didn't compete against the entire league, he competed against a makeshift division only.

His 2023 season is without question more impressive in my eyes because he did it on an equal playing field to his peers.

That’s a fair criticism. The full 82 against all the teams is big. The reason he and I are both really high on 2021 McDavid is the peer dominance. Other than 1982-87 Gretzky, 89 and 93 Lemieux you just aren’t going to find better for forwards. The North division was a league to itself in 2021 but the average for the North is virtually the same when compared to the NHL average for 2021.

McDavid had more assists than the closest non teammate had points (72 assists to 69 points). Outscoring the closest non teammate by 36 points (52%) over the course of a 56 game season is just nuts. Over 82 games that would be a 50+ point Ross gap which is only topped by Gretzky several times in the 80s. That is if you exclude Draisaitl. Plus when you adjust 1996 Lemieux to 2021 levels by G/GP (even strength, powerplay and shorthanded separately) Lemieux’s 2.30 goes down to 1.90. McDavid’s by comparison is virtually identical at 1.88 and he did so with a significantly lesser supporting cast. To me both 23 and 21 McDavid are better because it’s a guy who is a big 4 level talent at the peak of his powers who is also arguably the most advanced/talented player the game has seen compared to Lemieux’s third best season that is significantly lower than his peak 89 or 93 forms that are also better than McDavid 21 and 23.

 

[WalterLundy]

I'd take McDavid '23 (or '24) over Lemieux '96 without question. And, notwithstanding the voting results, I think almost everybody would.

Lemieux was not close to his best in '96. He was just returning to playing after missing almost two full seasons following his back surgery in the summer of '93. He actually enjoyed the '96 season - he felt decently well, and the League was calling the interference, hooking, etc. more so than before.

But Lemieux still was not the Lemieux of old. He had lost a lot of his agility. He couldn't play a consistently strong game, even though he was still a great scorer.

With McDavid, we're talking McDavid near his best.

Healthier, much closer to his best, 5 years younger. I think it's an easy choice. A more impact player, and more likely to help a team win.

This is what I think it comes down to for me as well. You can cover adjustments, peer dominance, the caliber of teammates, context, league environments and all of that. That’s all good and well and when you do consider those it’s neck and neck. I think beyond all of that though is you see a guy at his absolute best (McDavid) visually and statistically at the top of his game where Lemieux was not the same player as he was in 89 or 93.

If you go back and watch (I was there for many games too) Lemieux was cerebral and very skilled but clearly had lost a step. He was able to still rack up points because he’s still Mario and also because he was in the best environment possible for himself to rack up points. This is what I saw then and what I see now as well looking back. Compare that to what I saw with McDavid in 2023 and it’s pretty clear. He was just visually more dominant. You could see it. I hadn’t seen anything better or close since 1993. When he came to Pittsburgh he put on an absolute clinic and all year long he popped off the screen.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Way too many people in here don't see to know the difference between 'better' and 'more impressive'. The answer can still be Lemieux, but his injuries have literally nothing to do with the actual outome being better or worse.

 

[blundluntman]

I'd probably go Lemieux all things considered here. Sure he missed some back-to-backs but even with them, I'm pretty sure he'd still have put up higher totals than McDavid. He wasn't the same as he was in his prime and he did have peak Jagr, but he was outscoring him as well. He outlapped prime Sakic, Kariya, Lindros, Forsberg etc. by the same gap McDavid did that year. It's closer than most think but have to go with Mario.

 

[wetcoast]

I don’t think I agree. OP is stating a case and seeing if people agree with it

Agreed either way is okay isn't it?

I'm taking McDavid here as he tilted the ice more than Mario who despite his video game stats didn't really tilt the ice as much 5 on 5.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I'd take McDavid '23 (or '24) over Lemieux '96 without question. And, notwithstanding the voting results, I think almost everybody would.

Lemieux was not close to his best in '96. He was just returning to playing after missing almost two full seasons following his back surgery in the summer of '93. He actually enjoyed the '96 season - he felt decently well, and the League was calling the interference, hooking, etc. more so than before.

But Lemieux still was not the Lemieux of old. He had lost a lot of his agility. He couldn't play a consistently strong game, even though he was still a great scorer.

With McDavid, we're talking McDavid near his best.

Healthier, much closer to his best, 5 years younger. I think it's an easy choice. A more impact player, and more likely to help a team win.

So you think everyone would even though lemieux is dominating the poll? Impressive.... most impressive

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

This is what I think it comes down to for me as well. You can cover adjustments, peer dominance, the caliber of teammates, context, league environments and all of that. That’s all good and well and when you do consider those it’s neck and neck. I think beyond all of that though is you see a guy at his absolute best (McDavid) visually and statistically at the top of his game where Lemieux was not the same player as he was in 89 or 93.

If you go back and watch (I was there for many games too) Lemieux was cerebral and very skilled but clearly had lost a step. He was able to still rack up points because he’s still Mario and also because he was in the best environment possible for himself to rack up points. This is what I saw then and what I see now as well looking back. Compare that to what I saw with McDavid in 2023 and it’s pretty clear. He was just visually more dominant. You could see it. I hadn’t seen anything better or close since 1993. When he came to Pittsburgh he put on an absolute clinic and all year long he popped off the screen.

No offense. But this post reeks of hypocrisy. Your reason for taking mcdavid over mario these seasons even with mario havingbthe better season is because he looked more cerebral and used his mind more etc. And because mcdavid was more visually dominant with his speed and highlight reels.

So I ask you something? How would you not take mario over Gretzky all time? What you described was exactly the same situation between those two. Mario was much more visually dominant and gretzky was a celebral Wizard. If you took 100 people who have never watched hockey and showed them peak lemieux and gretzky play. 100/100 say mario is the better player.

 

[bobholly39]

Agreed either way is okay isn't it?

I'm taking McDavid here as he tilted the ice more than Mario who despite his video game stats didn't really tilt the ice as much 5 on 5.

You only ever use the phrase "tilt the ice" when Mario's name comes up, and when it does you use that sentence every single time lol. Still have no idea what it means.

As for 5v5 vs power play - to me a point is a point and makes no difference. But if you feel different you probably picked the wrong thread to make that argument, considering how many points both players got on power play:


Lemieux 73 EVP vs 79 PPP
McDavid 75 EVP vs 71 PPP

Seems pretty close to me

Lemieux gets the edge for more points and goals in less games in a lower overall scoring environment. Seems simple

 

[bobholly39]

I think it's close but I do lean Lemieux. A big part of it for me is that he did it in less games.

I'd rank them all as

Lemieux 89
Lemieux 93
McDavid 21

Lemieux 96
McDavid 23

Then a decent gap to other seasons. But I think those are the 5 clear cut best seasons between the two players.

I disagree on your Lemieux vs McDavid assessment as I have Lemieux seasons above McDavid

But I'm especially curious about your McDavid 21 vs 23 rationale:

More points
More assists
More goals
Same ppg (within 0.01)
More games
More competition (plays every team vs isolated to one division)

Why would 2021 be better?

 

[LivingRentFree]

Lemieux, AINEC

 

[jigglysquishy]

I disagree on your Lemieux vs McDavid assessment as I have Lemieux seasons above McDavid

But I'm especially curious about your McDavid 21 vs 23 rationale:

More points
More assists
More goals
Same ppg (within 0.01)
More games
More competition (plays every team vs isolated to one division)

Why would 2021 be better?

Watching live, I think McDavid was just at a different level in 2021 than 2023. You can attribute it to weaker competition if you want, but game in game out he just played better hockey.

The point gap between peers is significantly larger in 2021 as is the EV point gap. But it ultimately comes down to the games themselves and thinking he played better in 2021.

I get why people prefer 2023. More goals, all teams, more games. But in terms of actually dominating hockey games, 2021 McDavid is the best I've seen in my life.

 

[WalterLundy]

No offense. But this post reeks of hypocrisy. Your reason for taking mcdavid over mario these seasons even with mario havingbthe better season is because he looked more cerebral and used his mind more etc. And because mcdavid was more visually dominant with his speed and highlight reels.

So I ask you something? How would you not take mario over Gretzky all time? What you described was exactly the same situation between those two. Mario was much more visually dominant and gretzky was a celebral Wizard. If you took 100 people who have never watched hockey and showed them peak lemieux and gretzky play. 100/100 say mario is the better player.

Because what you are describing is the equivalent of comparing an 89 Lemieux to a say 91 Gretzky. Not an all time comparison either. When I saw both players at their peaks I actually didn’t think Mario was visually more dominant. I’m not just talking about watching highlight reels but full games. I genuinely don’t think there was an area that peak Lemieux was better than peak Gretzky other than maybe breakaways. I can go over all of these but this is what I thought and it was very clear. Even non peak matchups in person Gretzky was more dominant (look at head to head stats) and I saw both players on the ice at the same time every time I could.

McDavid to me (due only to advances in the game) is probably the most impressive to watch ever but there has been a lot of other reasons for why I selected this peak version of McDavid over a non peak Lemieux (again think 89 Lemieux over 91 Gretzky line of thought). Dominance over peers is virtually the same, era adjustments based on team conversion rates actually favor 2023 McDavid, 1996 (and the first half specifically) was a very high scoring environment for teams that are big on special teams, Jagr and Francis>Draisaitl and Nuge. Either season to me is a fair choice but I’m not picking it because I’m a hypocrite. That’s unfair.

 

[tapi]

Lemioux of any season is better than peak McDavid

 

[WalterLundy]

You only ever use the phrase "tilt the ice" when Mario's name comes up, and when it does you use that sentence every single time lol. Still have no idea what it means.

As for 5v5 vs power play - to me a point is a point and makes no difference. But if you feel different you probably picked the wrong thread to make that argument, considering how many points both players got on power play:


Lemieux 73 EVP vs 79 PPP
McDavid 75 EVP vs 71 PPP

Seems pretty close to me

Lemieux gets the edge for more points and goals in less games in a lower overall scoring environment. Seems simple

1996 powerplay stats:
5.04 PPO, 0.90 PPG

2023 powerplay stats:
3.07 PPO, 0.65 PPG

1996 for the first half of the season was also the highest powerplay environment of all time other than 88, 89 and 93 (Lemieux’s other best seasons ironically).

McDavid’s powerplay points go up to 98 in the 1996 environment which even beats Lemieux’s all time best 82 game pace of 92. McDavid was also able to manage having the best powerplay season ever and best team conversion rate with a lesser cast.

1996 was not a low scoring year. The 3.14 total goals was incredibly deceptive. Not only was special teams scoring the highest outside of three other years but top end scoring at 80s levels that year.

2-10th in scoring per 82 games by year
1979-80: 120 per 82
1980-81: 126 per 82
1981-82: 129 per 82
1982-83: 117 per 82
1983-84: 128 per 82
1984-85: 124 per 82
1985-86: 128 per 82
1986-87: 111 per 82
1987-88: 128 per 82
1988-89: 134 per 82
1989-90: 122 per 82
1990-91: 123 per 82
1991-92: 118 per 82
1992-93: 132 per 82
1993-94: 116 per 82
1994-95: 106 per 82
1995-96: 121 per 82

1996 was in line with the average live puck era season (1980-1993). Anything but low scoring and levels have never approached this again. If anything it was closer to one of those years.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

McDavid is the best offensive player since Lemieux, but I take Mario because he was a much more cerebral player. His skating was shot by then but his hockey iq still lapped the field.

And his even strength numbers were not amazing because they loaded up the second line to feast on matchups while Lemieux had Sandstrom and a rookie Naslund on his line.

 

[Felidae]

Because what you are describing is the equivalent of comparing an 89 Lemieux to a say 91 Gretzky. Not an all time comparison either. When I saw both players at their peaks I actually didn’t think Mario was visually more dominant. I’m not just talking about watching highlight reels but full games. I genuinely don’t think there was an area that peak Lemieux was better than peak Gretzky other than maybe breakaways. I can go over all of these but this is what I thought and it was very clear. Even non peak matchups in person Gretzky was more dominant (look at head to head stats) and I saw both players on the ice at the same time every time I could.

You don't think Lemieux had the better shot arsenal, stick handling ability, or strength on the puck? That's pretty unpopular...

Anyways, I'm actually fairly surprised this isn't closer. The small point and ppg pace in favour of Lemieux is surely offset by the higher scoring environment he played in..

The significant goal gap is really the best argument in Lemieux's favour though.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

1996 powerplay stats:
5.04 PPO, 0.90 PPG

2023 powerplay stats:
3.07 PPO, 0.65 PPG

1996 for the first half of the season was also the highest powerplay environment of all time other than 88, 89 and 93 (Lemieux’s other best seasons ironically).

McDavid’s powerplay points go up to 98 in the 1996 environment which even beats Lemieux’s all time best 82 game pace of 92. McDavid was also able to manage having the best powerplay season ever and best team conversion rate with a lesser cast.

1996 was not a low scoring year. The 3.14 total goals was incredibly deceptive. Not only was special teams scoring the highest outside of three other years but top end scoring at 80s levels that year.

2-10th in scoring per 82 games by year
1979-80: 120 per 82
1980-81: 126 per 82
1981-82: 129 per 82
1982-83: 117 per 82
1983-84: 128 per 82
1984-85: 124 per 82
1985-86: 128 per 82
1986-87: 111 per 82
1987-88: 128 per 82
1988-89: 134 per 82
1989-90: 122 per 82
1990-91: 123 per 82
1991-92: 118 per 82
1992-93: 132 per 82
1993-94: 116 per 82
1994-95: 106 per 82
1995-96: 121 per 82

1996 was in line with the average live puck era season (1980-1993). Anything but low scoring and levels have never approached this again. If anything it was closer to one of those years.

We just had 4 players hit 120 and two in the 140s. Along with 3 on 3 OT. This era is just as high scoring as 96. The difference is mario is just far better than any player before or since minus Gretzky.

 

[bobholly39]

Watching live, I think McDavid was just at a different level in 2021 than 2023. You can attribute it to weaker competition if you want, but game in game out he just played better hockey.

The point gap between peers is significantly larger in 2021 as is the EV point gap. But it ultimately comes down to the games themselves and thinking he played better in 2021.

I get why people prefer 2023. More goals, all teams, more games. But in terms of actually dominating hockey games, 2021 McDavid is the best I've seen in my life.

Fair enough. Can't really argue with your opinion if it comes down to watching him a lot both years and thinking he was better.

I was thinking you were going to lean on adjusting stats/saying it was a lower scoring year, which I'd have more of an issue with.

As it is - I have both McDavid years very close, I just give 2023 preference for more total games played.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I think a lot of people simply have it in their heads that the heroes of their childhood are untouchable by the modern losers of today.

 

[bobholly39]

Lemieux, AINEC

It actually is close. Which is a testament to McDavid. I never thought I'd see a player making it close to Lemieux. It wouldn't be close to 89 or 93 fwiw - but 96 Lemieux is a bit behind those 2.

That's a testament to how dominant McDavid has been the past few years.

But- I agree and prefer Lemieux here too.