1981 Conn Smythe: Bossy vs Potvin

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sr edler

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As for later rounds having a stronger impact, of course they do and continues to do so.

Pronger was arguably his team's best defensive D (or even overall D) in 07, and his 15 points in 19 games makes him look strong offensively too, but 73% of his points came in the first two rounds against Minny and Vancouver. Then in the WCFs and SCFs against Detroit and Ottawa he had a whopping 1 primary point and two suspensions, with his team winning both games with him in the press-box. Of course it'll matter if you have more suspensions than primary points in the two hardest series, and your D colleagues are horsing it out without you.
 
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LightningStorm

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Not everything is about accumulated point totals.

Did anyone of the people in the thread being so negative about Goring actually watch the 1981 playoffs? I didn't myself, but it seems you guys are so very assured about your position.

If I didn't watch the 2021 playoffs for instance and only looked at the stats, someone like Philip Danault, 1 goal and 4 points and –1 in 22 games, looks very underwhelming, like a borderline healthy scratch-able passenger. But if I was actually there and watched it myself, I would have seen a player who was arguably his team's most valuable skater, playing the toughest minutes and running the oh so effective shutdown line with Evans & Gallagher like clockwork.
I've watched replays of some of their series against the Oilers, and a little bit of the Rangers. Saying things are beyond accumulated point/box score totals and actually having proof that Goring's contribution beyond those puts him ahead of Bossy and Potvin are 2 entirely different things.

Even then, a 15 point difference between forwards in a postseason isn't trivial at all, but rather an example where you just got to call a spade a spade. It got me curious to see if any other point disparities existed between CS winning forwards and the leading scorer on their team. Here are the Conn Smythe winning forwards in the expansion era, with ones who did not lead their team in scoring bolded, and the % of points scored compared to the team's scoring leader:

1. 1973: Cournoyer
2. 1976: Leach
3. 1977: Lafleur
4. 1979: Gainey (70%)
5. 1980: Trottier
6. 1981: Goring (57%)
7. 1982: Bossy (93%)
8. 1984: Messier (74%)
9. 1985: Gretzky
10. 1988: Gretzky
11. 1991: Lemieux
12: 1992: Lemieux
13. 1995: C. Lemieux (76%)
14. 1996: Sakic
15. 1998: Yzerman
16. 1999: Nieuwendyk (91%)
17. 2004: Richards
18. 2008: Zetterberg
19. 2009: Malkin
20. 2010: Toews
21. 2013: Kane
22. 2014: Williams (96%)
23. 2016: Crosby (86%)
24. 2017: Crosby (96%)
25. 2018: Ovechkin (84%)
26. 2019: O'Reilly

Some notes on these 10 CS winning forwards (out of 26) who didn't lead their team in scoring: As you can see, the other 9 at least scored 70% of the points the team leader that postseason did. 4 of them (Bossy, C. Lemieux, Nieuwendyk, Ovechkin) led their team in goals. The other 9 trailed the leader but a combined total of 35 points (a rate just below 4 points behind per player). Goring was 15 back. In addition, none of the other 9 were outscored by a defenceman on their team. I don't even agree with all these CS winners, yet Goring still sticks out here.
These attempts at revisionism based on stat watching and name-recognition comes across quite lazy to me.
I also find it quite lazy when people simply dismiss questioning things based on the just world fallacy. We see plenty of players win awards based mostly on narratives at the time. When looked back on without the lens of that (usually subjective) narrative, these choices can age poorly.
 

JackSlater

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Not everything is about accumulated point totals.

Did anyone of the people in the thread being so negative about Goring actually watch the 1981 playoffs? I didn't myself, but it seems you guys are so very assured about your position.

If I didn't watch the 2021 playoffs for instance and only looked at the stats, someone like Philip Danault, 1 goal and 4 points and –1 in 22 games, looks very underwhelming, like a borderline healthy scratch-able passenger. But if I was actually there and watched it myself, I would have seen a player who was arguably his team's most valuable skater, playing the toughest minutes and running the oh so effective shutdown line with Evans & Gallagher like clockwork.

These attempts at revisionism based on stat watching and name-recognition comes across quite lazy to me.

I've seen various games from the playoffs, probably six Islanders games if I had to guess. In my memory Goring does look better than Trottier but not better than the other two big stars. Now I would hate for you to be accused of lazily appealing to authority so I've linked several Islanders games from those playoffs. There are more available because again, clearly you would want to actually watch the games before weighing in.







Looking forward to hearing your thoughts after watching the games, and again you can find additional games from the 1981 playoffs pretty easily online.
 

sr edler

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clearly you would want to actually watch the games before weighing in.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts after watching the games, and again you can find additional games from the 1981 playoffs pretty easily online.

I haven't made any absolute statements who I think deserved or not deserved this particular award. From what I've heard regarding contemporary accounts Bossy could very well have won it, but the voters enjoyed Goring's case a little bit more. It's not the end of the world, Jack.
 

JackSlater

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I haven't made any absolute statements who I think deserved or not deserved this particular award. From what I've heard regarding contemporary accounts Bossy could very well have won it, but the voters enjoyed Goring's case a little bit more. It's not the end of the world, Jack.

Your claim that there was "revisionism" based on lazy stat watching and name recognition clearly implies that you have some sort of knowledge of the situation and that Goring was the deserving winner. So again, watch some of the games and get back to us, particularly since you seem to place value on having watched the games, which is a position I do agree with. Otherwise your post looks like little more than a lazy appeal to authority.
 
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ContrarianGoaltender

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Not everything is about accumulated point totals.

Did anyone of the people in the thread being so negative about Goring actually watch the 1981 playoffs? I didn't myself, but it seems you guys are so very assured about your position.

If I didn't watch the 2021 playoffs for instance and only looked at the stats, someone like Philip Danault, 1 goal and 4 points and –1 in 22 games, looks very underwhelming, like a borderline healthy scratch-able passenger. But if I was actually there and watched it myself, I would have seen a player who was arguably his team's most valuable skater, playing the toughest minutes and running the oh so effective shutdown line with Evans & Gallagher like clockwork.

These attempts at revisionism based on stat watching and name-recognition comes across quite lazy to me.

This year I watched Connor McDavid get outscored 17-12 by his own teammate in a series where he was still easily the best player on the ice. My resolution from that is to never, ever think that I can definitively conclude who the best player was in any postseason sample exclusively based on points.
 

ContrarianGoaltender

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You and @JackSlater nailed it in terms of how Goring didn't match up to Bossy and Potvin this postseason. Another angle I thought of too is as weak as Goring's case is on it's own against both his teammates, it's nearly impossible to make the case he was better than both in conjunction with one another, because making the case for him winning over one more or less negates his case over the other. This is especially true for his case over Bossy negating his case over Potvin.

Also, for the Isles other 3 cups, the most consistently best player through all 4 rounds won the Conn Smythe, so it wasn't as much of a Finals MVP as some are making it out to be.

This isn't the only CS I've disagreed with, but I could at least see where the voters were coming from in other years I thought they got the winner wrong. Not so when it comes to 1981.

Goring's case over both of them is actually the same: He outperformed both of them in the Final, voters of that era prioritized the Final more than they do now, therefore he won the Smythe.

How exactly can you see where the voters were coming from in 1979, but be completely baffled by 1981? It's pretty much exactly the same thing, especially when you adjust for the fact that the Habs didn't get an extra round to pad their stats. Lafleur outscored Gainey 23-16 through 3 rounds, Bossy outscored Goring 25-17 through the final 3 rounds, that's almost identical.

Trottier was pretty consistent in 1980, but Bossy in '82 and Smith in '83 were absolutely not the most consistently best Islanders through 4 rounds. Bossy was sub-PPG in the one series they almost lost, scoring 6 goals in his first 12 games, then 11 in his last 7 (including 7 in the SCF). Smith wasn't even the team's clear #1 goalie to begin with that spring, platooning with Melanson for the first 8 games before winning the outright starting job at the end of the NYR series and holding it despite playing very average in the Conference Finals. After 3 rounds, he was at .899, but because he shut down the Oilers in the Finals (.953) he got himself a Smythe.

Let me link one of my old posts that gives more context about how voters viewed this era with respect to the SCF (particularly for repeat champions like the '81 Isles):

Here's my theory about Conn Smythe voting in that era: It became essentially a glorified Finals MVP if your team was also in the Finals the year before.

Looking at the history of the Smythe, it seems that voters were looking at the playoffs more or less as a whole in the earlier years, given that guys like Crozier, Keon, Savard, Orr in 1970 and Dryden would have won theirs at least in part because of their excellent performances in previous rounds. Leach in 1976 in particular was unquestionably picked based on his exploits in earlier series.

However, after 1976 the voters seemed to really emphasize the Finals in their selections. I expect this is a byproduct of having completely dominant dynasty teams in play, where since everyone expects them to get back to the Finals whatever happens in the early rounds is viewed as little more than a warmup act.

1977: Lafleur leads SCF in scoring
1978: Robinson leads SCF in scoring
1979: Gainey outscores Lafleur in SCF while shutting down Esposito line
1980: Trottier outscored by Bossy and Potvin in SCF but still wins Smythe
1981: Goring scores 5 goals in SCF, wins with only 20 playoff points
1982: Bossy scores 7 goals in SCF, wins over scoring leader Trottier
1983: Smith is at .899 through 3 rounds, then posts a .953 in the Finals
1984: Messier keys the Oilers in games 3 and 4 of SCF, wins over scoring leader Gretzky
1985: Gretzky ties for SCF lead with Coffey, voters had to pick one of them

The only real exception to SCF primacy in that period was Trottier in 1980, and he was also the only one of those players who did not play in the Finals the previous year.

Picking Gainey over Lafleur despite Lafleur having one of the greatest playoff series performances ever against the team's archrivals in the 1979 semifinals makes almost zero sense unless they were mostly focusing on the Finals. Goring is actually a completely defensible choice as Finals MVP in 1981, even if it is very tough to make a case for him being the Islanders' best player though all 4 rounds. Similarly, Messier would definitely have been viewed as the Finals MVP heading into game 5 in 1984, and I guess the voters had likely already made up their minds enough to give him the award.

This was an easy path, in large party because of the 1-16 format, with 16 teams making it in a 21 team league.

Interesting that you ask about this as an Oilers fan, because I thought Edmonton was the best team they faced. even purely looking at things in a 1981 context. I disagree with ContrarianGoltender about the North Stars being the Isles best opponent (and using that reasoning for why Goring should've won the CS). Not that the best team among this 4 is an impressive feat.

Since this is a 1981 context we're looking at, Gretzky has won his 2nd MVP in as many seasons, and the Art Ross outright. His 164 points broke Esposito's previous record of 152. So a record setting scorer, but still a season away from a record shattering scorer from when he'd have 212 points the next season. Already a great 50 goal scorer, but still a season away from the record shattering 92.

For the Oilers as a team, they did finish with a losing record of 29-35-16, meaning they were the #14 seed. But let's take a look at their month leading up to their mid April QF series against the Isles, which began on April 16. On March 15, they were 22-34-13. But in their final 11 RS games, they go 7-1-3, most notably going 5-0-1 in their final 6. Then in R1 against #3 seed Montreal, that was a series you'd definitely expect the Habs to win. Sure, their late 70's dynasty was waning with those key losses in the 1979 offseason. but you'd still expect those experienced vets to beat a team making their playoff debut. But the Oilers stomped them in a 3 game sweep, outscoring them 15-6.

Edmonton having the MVP, a hot finish to the RS, and sweeping the experienced champions in Montreal was IMO enough for them to clear the rather low bar of being the best of the Isles 4 opponents in 1981. It's no surprise they handed the Isles 2 of their only 3 losses, with their only other loss being to the North Stars when they already had a 3-0 lead. Only team to win at Nassau that postseason too. The Oilers were a better team at the time they were playing the Isles than their regular season record indicated.
It's fair to point out that the 1981 Oilers were better than their record, I agree that they were, but it wasn't because of their finish to the regular season. The Oilers finished strong because their schedule was super easy (the last 6 opponents averaged just 59 points in 1980-81). In their last 6 games against above .500 teams, the Oilers were only 1-2-3 with a -8 GD.

The reasons the Oilers were better than their record are:

1. Their goal differential was +1, meaning they underperformed their expected record
2. They fired their coach early after a bad start, then were at almost .500 under Glen Sather
3. Adding Andy Moog fixed their goaltending problems
4. Their young stars (especially Gretzky, Coffey and Messier) were improving with experience

But that doesn't make them better than Minnesota, who you pretty clearly aren't giving the same benefit of the doubt to even though there's just as much evidence that they were better than their record as well. #1 and #4 both apply to the North Stars, who were also a very young team (the average age of their top 10 playoff scorers was 22.4, the exact same as Edmonton's), and had guys like Dino Ciccarelli and Neal Broten showing up late in the season and becoming key contributors in the playoffs.

The North Stars were also coming off of a semifinal run in 1980, then beat three teams with better records in the 1981 playoffs (a more impressive run than the Oilers beating a Montreal team that won one playoff series during the entire Isles dynasty). In hindsight it is pretty obvious that they just had a team-wide offensive slump in the regular season in 1980-81 (offence fell to 16th in the league, after being 4th the year before and would be 5th the year after, despite the same coach and fairly consistent team defensive numbers in all 3 seasons), before regressing to the mean in the playoffs. To show this, their average GPG in the season before and after, both adjusted to 1981 scoring environment, was 4.20. In 1981 they averaged 3.64 GPG in the regular season and 4.33 in the playoffs.

I'd estimate the playoff Oilers were about an 85-90 point team, and the playoff North Stars were about a 95-100 point team (based on true offensive level and with springtime reinforcements included). Problem was that the 110 point Islanders were just too good for either of them. So yeah, I think the win probability logic still applies, but if you want to argue that the Oiler series should count some then that's fair too.
 
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overpass

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Butch Goring had positive reviews of his play before the final series. Rangers coach Craig Patrick named Goring when asked about the best Islanders in their semi-final series.


Of the Islanders, Patrick said, ''They're going to be very tough to beat'' in the Cup finals. He hesitated when asked to single out the Islanders who impressed him during the semifinals, but named Bossy and Goring, then added that Bob Nystrom ''played fantastic.''

Stepping back and looking at the playoffs as a whole, if you're looking at scoring totals, it's worth considering that Goring didn't get the benefit of playing on the Islanders all-time great top power play unit. And his linemates at EV weren't particularly strong either. He put up most of his scoring in unexpected situations. 2 goals and 4 points while shorthanded. 4 PPG and 8 power play points from the second PP unit. 1 goal and 1 assist at 4-on-4. Based on deployment, you would expect him to score significantly fewer goals and points than Mike Bossy, who was playing on the best top PP unit of all time and was centred by Bryan Trottier at EV. Many of Goring's points came in "bonus" situations where you wouldn't expect to score so much.

The Tonelli-Merrick-Nystrom line was actually the Islanders' most productive 5-on-5 unit, with 16 5-on-5 goals between them in the playoffs. Bossy and Trottier combined for 12 5-on-5 goals. Goring was only 3-3-6 at 5-on-5, but he had to be the best player on his line, carrying the main defensive role and also leading the attack. I believe his most common linemate was Clark Gillies, but he played with several different wingers and didn't really have a steady pair of linemates.

Here's some more context on the Islanders' scoring in different game situations, from this post.

5-on-5
The Islanders outscored opponents 51-28 in 5-on-5 situations. The line of Tonelli-Merrick-Nystrom led the way with 16 goals at 5-on-5. Bossy and Trottier scored 12 goals combined at 5-on-5. After those 5, Goring was next with 3 5-on-5 goals.

4-on-4
The Islanders outscored opponents 5-0 in 55 minutes of 4-on-4 hockey. Goring and Wayne Merrick were the top scorers, each with a goal and an assist at 4-on-4.

5-on-4
The Islanders scored 28 goals and allowed 1 goal in 104 minutes of 5-on-4 hockey. That is insanely efficient, I don't know if any other power play has ever had a similar run.

The first unit was Bossy on the left side, Trottier down low, Gillies or Bourne on the right side, Denis Potvin on the left point, and Mike McEwen or Stefan Persson on the right point. Goring was the main source of scoring from the second 5-on-4 unit.

This is probably the main case for Mike Bossy -- he was the main man on an all-time dominant PP unit.

PlayerGPGAP
Mike Bossy189918
Bryan Trottier184913
Denis Potvin184711
Mike McEwen174610
Clark Gillies18448
Butch Goring18235
Bob Bourne14123
Stefan Persson7033

4-on-3

The Islanders scored 3 goals in 5:18 at 4-on-3 in those playoffs. Butch Goring and Denis Potvin combined on all 3 goals.

PlayerGPGAP
Butch Goring18213
Denis Potvin18123
Stefan Persson18011
Mike Bossy18011

4-on-5
The Islanders scored 8 goals and allowed 16 in 145 minutes of 4-on-5 hockey. Their SH scoring was very strong and offset half their PP goals against. Butch Goring led the way in SH scoring for them.

PlayerGPGAP
Butch Goring18224
Denis Potvin18112
Billy Carroll18123
Bryan Trottier18213
Anders Kallur18202
Bob Lorimer18022

To sum up: Bossy was the headliner of the impossibly dominant Islanders first unit PP. Goring was the man who filled in all the gaps and provided unexpected scoring while checking very well. I certainly agree Bossy had a strong case for the Smythe, but Goring was a very valuable player that spring as well.
 

sr edler

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Your claim that there was "revisionism" based on lazy stat watching and name recognition clearly implies that you have some sort of knowledge of the situation and that Goring was the deserving winner. So again, watch some of the games and get back to us, particularly since you seem to place value on having watched the games, which is a position I do agree with. Otherwise your post looks like little more than a lazy appeal to authority.

If you think you've watched enough of those playoffs to come to the conclusion Bossy was more MVP worthy than Goring, then that's fine, everyone's entitled to their own opinions. My gripe thread wise was more with the "top-10 defender in the history of the sport" or "all-time" lines in regards to Potvin as an argument against Goring's Smythe case, because that comes across as a name recognition argument (to me).

Also OPs way of singling out Goring's award as particularly egregious, which came across as a stat watching argument to me.

I think when looking at points and stuff one has to take into account deployment and roles. I saw Mikael Samuelsson outscore both Sedins in the 2010 playoffs for instance, 15 points in 12 games. And while Samuelsson was really good those playoffs, no ways in hell he scores even remotely close to those 15 points if he's playing away from said Sedins.
 

JackSlater

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If you think you've watched enough of those playoffs to come to the conclusion Bossy was more MVP worthy than Goring, then that's fine, everyone's entitled to their own opinions. My gripe thread wise was more with the "top-10 defender in the history of the sport" or "all-time" lines in regards to Potvin as an argument against Goring's Smythe case, because that comes across as a name recognition argument (to me).

Also OPs way of singling out Goring's award as particularly egregious, which came across as a stat watching argument to me.

I think when looking at points and stuff one has to take into account deployment and roles. I saw Mikael Samuelsson outscore both Sedins in the 2010 playoffs for instance, 15 points in 12 games. And while Samuelsson was really good those playoffs, no ways in hell he scores even remotely close to those 15 points if he's playing away from said Sedins.

I understand that element, and it is true that you cannot just count the points and call it a day. In the playoffs this year Rantanen was flattered by his point total, and I'd say that Point has been somewhat in the previous two years as well, and that can lead to odd conclusions. Crosby and Ovechkin each have at least one Smythe that they very likely don't win if they had different names. I don't think that this is that case though, where Goring is in the unique situation, as far as I see it, where any argument for him over Bossy pretty much has to put him below Potvin. The Conn Smythe is a trophy I disagree with many times, possibly almost 50% of the time. I find that the story often gets in the way of actually rewarding what the trophy is supposed to reward, and in this case my suspicion is that they wanted to recognize the Islanders' depth and Goring was the standout depth player on the team two playoffs running, the "missing piece" etc. but not necessarily the actual most valuable player.
 

LightningStorm

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Goring's case over both of them is actually the same: He outperformed both of them in the Final, voters of that era prioritized the Final more than they do now, therefore he won the Smythe.
Believing the finals are inherently more important is a flawed process in the when picking the PLAYOFF MVP. FWIW, I've always liked the NHL having a playoff MVP way better than the NBA having a finals MVP.
How exactly can you see where the voters were coming from in 1979, but be completely baffled by 1981? It's pretty much exactly the same thing, especially when you adjust for the fact that the Habs didn't get an extra round to pad their stats. Lafleur outscored Gainey 23-16 through 3 rounds, Bossy outscored Goring 25-17 through the final 3 rounds, that's almost identical.
Haven't looked as deep into 1979 as 1981. Though on the surface it doesn't look good, even if it isn't as big a statistical outlier.
Trottier was pretty consistent in 1980, but Bossy in '82 and Smith in '83 were absolutely not the most consistently best Islanders through 4 rounds. Bossy was sub-PPG in the one series they almost lost, scoring 6 goals in his first 12 games, then 11 in his last 7 (including 7 in the SCF). Smith wasn't even the team's clear #1 goalie to begin with that spring, platooning with Melanson for the first 8 games before winning the outright starting job at the end of the NYR series and holding it despite playing very average in the Conference Finals. After 3 rounds, he was at .899, but because he shut down the Oilers in the Finals (.953) he got himself a Smythe.
Bossy scored 17 goals in 3 consecutive postseasons (1981-1983), which represented 3 of the first 5 times a player had reached 17 in a single postseason (Reggie Leach and Steve Payne being the others). What likely helped him most in 1982 is he was the goal leader by 6 goals, as oppose to being tied the previous season and being 2 goals ahead the next. His 7 finals goals and 17 playoff goals stand out in conjunction with one another.

Smith in 1983 is a case where I'm ok with giving more weight to the finals (though still not basing it entirely on the finals). The Oilers as a team and Gretzky as an individual were already shattering offensive records by now, and averaged over 7 GPG in the first 3 rounds. Smith holding them to 6 goals in their entire 4 game sweep is enough for him to be the rightful winner when you also factor in that the 1983 Isles were more of a team effort. We've seen other CS cases where the goalie wins when the postseason was more by committee than a couple of the skaters really standing out (which is why I thought there was a chance of Murray winning the 2016 CS).
Let me link one of my old posts that gives more context about how voters viewed this era with respect to the SCF (particularly for repeat champions like the '81 Isles):
Thanks for the link, and I do see somewhat of a pattern there when it came to the CS that year. The reason I don't like this, as well as the NBA Finals MVP, is due to a couple reasons. First, I think simply disregarding the first 3 rounds is wrong. Second, the finals isn't always the hardest round. I would know as a Bolts fan, with the finals being our easiest round in 2021, Sure that's an outlier, but having a previous round harder than the finals is not.

Speaking of the NBA, for those who watch it, here's a thread I made in the basketball subforum about years I think it would've changed had it been playoff MVP. I think Finals MVP Kawhi Leonard in 2014 is a good example of a context where having the best finals would've resulted in being the playoff MVP, mostly due to the finals featuring their toughest opponent.
2014 is another close one between Kawhi Leonard and the rest of the Spurs big 3. This is a case though where Kawhi being FMVP serves as the tiebreaker, since the finals did feature the Spurs best opponent in the 2 time defending champion Heat. Kawhi being their best player in that series is enough for him to win the close race for playoff MVP.
I'd estimate the playoff Oilers were about an 85-90 point team, and the playoff North Stars were about a 95-100 point team (based on true offensive level and with springtime reinforcements included). Problem was that the 110 point Islanders were just too good for either of them. So yeah, I think the win probability logic still applies, but if you want to argue that the Oiler series should count some then that's fair too.
Thanks for the background info on the 1981 Oilers. I do think the Oilers series should count some too, though I'm not suggesting it should count the most. No matter where you stand on Edmonton vs Minnesota in 1981, I don't think the difference is such that having a great series in one of them should outweigh having a great series against the other,
 

Big Phil

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One thing about 1981 is that Bossy and Potvin didn't cool off offensively in the final either. I can see if Goring had a great Cup final and Bossy and Potvin were pedestrian, but they weren't.

Now, I agree that part of this is a nod to the idea that Goring was the final piece of the Cup winning puzzle in 1980. He was a classic trade deadline success. Francis was the same in 1991, Blake was the same in 2001. It doesn't happen so perfect like that often, but it worked here. Did the writers like Goring? I think they did. That being said, we do forget that Goring had a unique combination of tenacity and never taking a penalty in his career. This is why he once won the Lady Byng. He played hard, he forechecked, he was strong defensively, and yet had only 102 PIM in his entire career. 0 in the 1981 season, and that was while playing 78 games (ironically 6 PIM in the playoffs).

Part of me also thinks that people didn't think the Isles were done in 1981. They were the best regular season team, they breezed through the playoffs and with the Habs dwindling and the Oilers not ready yet, I think the idea was that the Isles would win more Cups. So therefore, Bossy and Potvin would get their time. Bossy did, and Potvin, despite probably being the biggest piece of that dynasty, did not win the Smythe. I can see how Goring's all around play put him over the top. I get it, people that watched Goring knew how he played.

Now.....................on the flip side. That is a big gap production wise. Bossy had 35 points. Scored consistently throughout the playoffs. One other thing to mention, 35 points at the time was the most anyone ever had scored in the playoffs. Actually, no one had even gotten 30 prior to this. How that didn't factor in I don't know. It isn't like Bossy was winning the Hart and Art Ross at this time and there was voter fatigue against him. His brand was as hot as it was at this time, notching 50-in-50 that year but it was very fresh in people's minds, it isn't as if people got sick of him. So you can also argue he got the shaft.

Potvin was always in the mix for the Smythe. Unless there is some sort of stat someone can use that shows Potvin was rotten defensively that spring, I think we can assume he did his usual stuff on the back end. I can't remember when the Norris voting was announced in 1981, but Potvin not winning that year was criminal, I thought. If the results had come out before the Smythe voting would that have factored in? I don't know.
 

JackSlater

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In your wrong opinion, yes.

Quality contribution, particularly in this section. I guess any time you can give the second leading scorer in the playoffs the trophy over the leading scorer who contributed more outside of raw totals, you just have to. When it's Ovechkin (or Crosby) anyway.
 
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jigglysquishy

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Neither Crosby or Ovechkin won the Smythe in their best playoff years. It's weird how much of their playoff reputation gets attributed to what is arguably neither's top 3 run.
 
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JackSlater

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Neither Crosby or Ovechkin won the Smythe in their best playoff years. It's weird how much of their playoff reputation gets attributed to is arguably neither's top 3 run.
People really, really like the wikipedia bullet points. I find it surprising for players who we've presumably all actually watched. 2008/2009 Crosby and Ovechkin were better playoff performers than the Conn Smythe versions of both players.
 

LightningStorm

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One thing about 1981 is that Bossy and Potvin didn't cool off offensively in the final either. I can see if Goring had a great Cup final and Bossy and Potvin were pedestrian, but they weren't.

Now, I agree that part of this is a nod to the idea that Goring was the final piece of the Cup winning puzzle in 1980. He was a classic trade deadline success. Francis was the same in 1991, Blake was the same in 2001. It doesn't happen so perfect like that often, but it worked here. Did the writers like Goring? I think they did. That being said, we do forget that Goring had a unique combination of tenacity and never taking a penalty in his career. This is why he once won the Lady Byng. He played hard, he forechecked, he was strong defensively, and yet had only 102 PIM in his entire career. 0 in the 1981 season, and that was while playing 78 games (ironically 6 PIM in the playoffs).

Part of me also thinks that people didn't think the Isles were done in 1981. They were the best regular season team, they breezed through the playoffs and with the Habs dwindling and the Oilers not ready yet, I think the idea was that the Isles would win more Cups. So therefore, Bossy and Potvin would get their time. Bossy did, and Potvin, despite probably being the biggest piece of that dynasty, did not win the Smythe. I can see how Goring's all around play put him over the top. I get it, people that watched Goring knew how he played.

Now.....................on the flip side. That is a big gap production wise. Bossy had 35 points. Scored consistently throughout the playoffs. One other thing to mention, 35 points at the time was the most anyone ever had scored in the playoffs. Actually, no one had even gotten 30 prior to this. How that didn't factor in I don't know. It isn't like Bossy was winning the Hart and Art Ross at this time and there was voter fatigue against him. His brand was as hot as it was at this time, notching 50-in-50 that year but it was very fresh in people's minds, it isn't as if people got sick of him. So you can also argue he got the shaft.

Potvin was always in the mix for the Smythe. Unless there is some sort of stat someone can use that shows Potvin was rotten defensively that spring, I think we can assume he did his usual stuff on the back end. I can't remember when the Norris voting was announced in 1981, but Potvin not winning that year was criminal, I thought. If the results had come out before the Smythe voting would that have factored in? I don't know.
Good post Phil. I agree that Bossy's gap over Goring in terms of production was simply too big to overlook. I agree too that the Isles were easy to predict being in more finals, with them taking full advantage of the gap between the Habs and Oilers. Bossy got his the next year, and Potvin was probably the best skater in 1983, though I thought they got it right giving it to Smith. In terms of Bossy and Potvin in 1981, who do you think would've been the better choice ?
 

Big Phil

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Good post Phil. I agree that Bossy's gap over Goring in terms of production was simply too big to overlook. I agree too that the Isles were easy to predict being in more finals, with them taking full advantage of the gap between the Habs and Oilers. Bossy got his the next year, and Potvin was probably the best skater in 1983, though I thought they got it right giving it to Smith. In terms of Bossy and Potvin in 1981, who do you think would've been the better choice ?

I don't know. It is like choosing steak and lobster for me. Either way you've got an excellent playoff run. Bossy with the all-time record of 35 points (at the time) or a defenseman getting 25 points who is elite at both ends of the rink? I can't decide. I can make arguments for both.
 
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LightningStorm

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Coming back to this thread months later, I think I'd vote for Potvin by the thinnest margins. While Bossy comfortably lead the Isles in scoring that spring, Potvin was in the same group as the leading scorers after him, and the only d-man in the group. He not only scored at an over 100 pts/82 games rate, but also played shutdown defense, only being on the ice for 7 ES goals against in a high scoring era. That type of elite play on both ends of the ice would get him my vote. But again, Bossy would've been a right choice too, as his postseason was great. Weird how the voters had a 50/50 option they couldn't have gotten wrong yet chose a 3rd option that came out of left field.

It's interesting how winning the CS in 1981 would've affected their resumes. Potvin ended up never winning it, so it's something to add. Many also say he was robbed of the Norris in 1981, so this could've been a season that really stood out had he won both of those awards. For Bossy, he would've won this on the heels of his 50 in 50 RS. While he won the CS the next season after scoring his career high in points in the RS, Gretzky shattering the goal and point records really overshadowed that, which wouldn't have been the case the previous season.
 

Staniowski

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Weird how the voters had a 50/50 option they couldn't have gotten wrong yet chose a 3rd option that came out of left field.
The choice of Goring wasn't out of left field. It wasn't even remotely controversial. I suspect the vote wasn't close.

Goring was a "star" for the Islanders in a similar way as Gainey had been for the Habs (and in a similar way that Carbonneau would later be for the Habs).
 

LightningStorm

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Goring was a "star" for the Islanders in a similar way as Gainey had been for the Habs (and in a similar way that Carbonneau would later be for the Habs).
No one disputes this. The question was whether he had a better postseason than his HOF teammates Potvin and Bossy. And since I've leaned towards Potvin now, I see zero case for choosing Goring over him, considering he was better on both ends of the ice.
 

Moose Head

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Not everything is about accumulated point totals.

Did anyone of the people in the thread being so negative about Goring actually watch the 1981 playoffs? I didn't myself, but it seems you guys are so very assured about your position.

If I didn't watch the 2021 playoffs for instance and only looked at the stats, someone like Philip Danault, 1 goal and 4 points and –1 in 22 games, looks very underwhelming, like a borderline healthy scratch-able passenger. But if I was actually there and watched it myself, I would have seen a player who was arguably his team's most valuable skater, playing the toughest minutes and running the oh so effective shutdown line with Evans & Gallagher like clockwork.

These attempts at revisionism based on stat watching and name-recognition comes across quite lazy to me.

I watched that playoff, and personally I would have given it to Potvin. Bossy was my second choice. That said, Goring was great in 80 and 81. Great two way play.
 

The Panther

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"Good two-play play" is another way of saying "Not exceptional at anything".

Just kidding! (Sort of.) But there seemed to be this thing in the early 80s where Norris trophies and Conn Smythes briefly became the award-narrative-of-choice for the moldy-fig old-school hockey guys who wanted it to be 1957 forever. So, we got Rod Langway with not one (reasonable) but two (!) Norris trophies, Clark Gillies with a Conn Smythe, Messier-over-Gretzky '84 Conn Smythe, etc.

Not to say some of these choices weren't reasonable, but the voting mindset then just doesn't exist anymore. Nowadays, there's more NHLPA / NHL / advertising / Sports' networks cash to be made if Crosby, Ovechkin, or McDavid wins big awards. Back then, nobody thought about that. It was just, "We need to stop giving Norris trophies to high-scoring defencemen like Randy Carlyle. Reverse-narrative! From now on, it's for the one-dimensional stay-at-home guy -- LANGWAY!" (Mass nodding of heads in agreement.)
 
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