1981 Conn Smythe: Bossy vs Potvin

[LightningStorm]

Butch Goring winning the 1981 Conn Smythe is arguably the most controversial Conn Smythe selection in the expansion era. It wasn't just that, in a vacuum, it ranked low among CS winning postseasons, but there were also teammates who had a much better case. For example, Crosby's 2016 CS is on the low end, yet no matter what one's opinion of him winning was, no one was truly robbed, as the 2016 Pens were a true by committee team. But in 1981, Bossy and Potvin had a better case than Goring, and arguably Trottier did too. Between Potvin and Bossy though, who do you think was the better choice? I've thought about it for awhile and still can't decide.

Bossy outscored Goring by 15 points (35 to 20). He tied with Steve Payne with the postseason lead for 17 goals, the first of 3 consecutive 17 goal postseasons. Bossy and Payne were the first players to score 17 goals since Reggie Leach set the record of 19 in 1976 (later tied by Kurri in 1985). A 15 point postseason scoring difference is too large for Goring's superior 2 way play to make up for it. Bossy also led the Isles in scoring all 4 seasons. So for raw offensive scoring, Bossy was the best.

Potvin had 25 points, and outscoring Goring by 5 really stands out with Potvin being a d-man. Ironically he, not Bossy or Gretzky, was the leading goal scorer in the Isles R2 victory over the Oilers. And by using the logic of Goring winning due to 2 way play, Potvin was more important on the defensive end being a defenceman, and he still managed to outscore Goring. So with Potvin, I don't see any case for how one could vote for Goring over him.

But even after typing all this out, I'm still deadlocked between Bossy and Potvin. Bossy continued being the gamebreaking offensive threat he was, as this season followed up his 50 goals in 50 games RS. Potvin meanwhile likely had the best postseason of his career, showing how he was the rock of that dynasty. For those who witnessed the Isles dynasty, who would you have voted for between these 2 for the 1981 Conn Smythe?

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[Laphroaig]

Goring was a ridiculous selection in 1981. I would have voted for Potvin but Bossy would have been a sensible selection as well.

It's interesting that the trade that brought Goring to the Islanders is widely credited as the reason for putting the team over the top. I suspect that the Islanders would have won anyway even if they'd stood pat at the trade deadline. It's notable that this particular deadline trade has inspired teams to make so many ill advised deadline moves over the years.

 

[Staniowski]

Goring was excellent and I think he was deserving. He was a great player at that time, very important to the team's success.

Bossy and Potvin were great too, and either would've been fine also.

 

[JackSlater]

I'd go with Potvin, but it's close and either would be a very deserving winner. Bossy comfortably led the playoffs in scoring, while Potvin was close to the non-Bossy top scorers while providing elite defence and acting as the team's leader and most irreplaceable player.

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

Butch Goring winning the 1981 Conn Smythe is arguably the most controversial Conn Smythe selection in the expansion era. It wasn't just that, in a vacuum, it ranked low among CS winning postseasons, but there were also teammates who had a much better case. For example, Crosby's 2016 CS is on the low end, yet no matter what one's opinion of him winning was, no one was truly robbed, as the 2016 Pens were a true by committee team. But in 1981, Bossy and Potvin had a better case than Goring, and arguably Trottier did too. Between Potvin and Bossy though, who do you think was the better choice? I've thought about it for awhile and still can't decide.

Bossy outscored Goring by 15 points (35 to 20). He tied with Steve Payne with the postseason lead for 17 goals, the first of 3 consecutive 17 goal postseasons. Bossy and Payne were the first players to score 17 goals since Reggie Leach set the record of 19 in 1976 (later tied by Kurri in 1985). A 15 point postseason scoring difference is too large for Goring's superior 2 way play to make up for it. Bossy also led the Isles in scoring all 4 seasons. So for raw offensive scoring, Bossy was the best.

Potvin had 25 points, and outscoring Goring by 5 really stands out with Potvin being a d-man. Ironically he, not Bossy or Gretzky, was the leading goal scorer in the Isles R2 victory over the Oilers. And by using the logic of Goring winning due to 2 way play, Potvin was more important on the defensive end being a defenceman, and he still managed to outscore Goring. So with Potvin, I don't see any case for how one could vote for Goring over him.

But even after typing all this out, I'm still deadlocked between Bossy and Potvin. Bossy continued being the gamebreaking offensive threat he was, as this season followed up his 50 goals in 50 games RS. Potvin meanwhile likely had the best postseason of his career, showing how he was the rock of that dynasty. For those who witnessed the Isles dynasty, who would you have voted for between these 2 for the 1981 Conn Smythe?

"Butch Goring winning the 1981 Conn Smythe is arguably the most controversial Conn Smythe selection in the expansion era." - It was absolutely NOT controversial at the time, I'm not sure where you're getting this from. I'm guessing you weren't around to witness his play that year, and are just looking at stats and comparing.

He absolutely deserved the Conn Smythe, just as he may have deserved it in 1980. The narrative that year was that Goring was "the missing piece the Isles need to make a Cup run," but Trottier dominated offensively in the playoffs, and was basically going to be squeezed out of recognition that season in terms of other awards by Gretzky and Dionne, so he got the nod.

In 81, Goring scored 5 goals in 5 games in the Final. He had a hat trick in game 3 and 2 goals in game 5, outscoring Mike Bossy. To a degree, Goring was perhaps being compensated for not getting the Smythe the previous year given his strong play and the narrative around him. Bossy got his Smythe the following year.

Potvin and Bossy may have been deserving of the Smythe in 81, as well, I don't think anybody would have balked if either were chosen over Goring, just as nobody balked when Goring won it, nor would they have balked if Goring had won over Trottier in 80.

Sometimes for the Smythe there is no clear-cut winner, on any championship team there are usually 2-4 guys in any given year to whom you could award the Smythe. Goring was definitely part of that pack in 80 and 81.

 

[Staniowski]

"Butch Goring winning the 1981 Conn Smythe is arguably the most controversial Conn Smythe selection in the expansion era." - It was absolutely NOT controversial at the time, I'm not sure where you're getting this from. I'm guessing you weren't around to witness his play that year, and are just looking at stats and comparing.

He absolutely deserved the Conn Smythe, just as he may have deserved it in 1980. The narrative that year was that Goring was "the missing piece the Isles need to make a Cup run," but Trottier dominated offensively in the playoffs, and was basically going to be squeezed out of recognition that season in terms of other awards by Gretzky and Dionne, so he got the nod.

In 81, Goring scored 5 goals in 5 games in the Final. He had a hat trick in game 3 and 2 goals in game 5, outscoring Mike Bossy. To a degree, Goring was perhaps being compensated for not getting the Smythe the previous year given his strong play and the narrative around him. Bossy got his Smythe the following year.

Potvin and Bossy may have been deserving of the Smythe in 81, as well, I don't think anybody would have balked if either were chosen over Goring, just as nobody balked when Goring won it, nor would they have balked if Goring had won over Trottier in 80.

Sometimes for the Smythe there is no clear-cut winner, on any championship team there are usually 2-4 guys in any given year to whom you could award the Smythe. Goring was definitely part of that pack in 80 and 81.

I agree, Goring could have won the Conn Smythe in both '80 and '81....or he could have won neither. Potvin, Bossy, Trottier all played well too. It doesn't really matter who wins the Conn Smythe.

Goring did add a lot to the team, just as Bossy did a couple years before. Goring was good offensively and defensively, and a very strong skater, tenacious, and an important leader because of his style, his aggressiveness and all-out skating.

 

[Staniowski]

The Conn Smythe Trophy has really taken on more importance among hockey fans than it deserves. It is really a minor NHL award. I think a lot of people just associate it with the importance of the playoffs, which is understandable, but it's effectively just the MVP of the winning team over the playoffs - i.e. you are only competing against your teammates (3% or so of NHL players).

It really wasn't taken as seriously in the '70s and '80s, I always considered it merely as a bonus award for the winning team, and therefore it didn't matter that much who won it.

 

[decma]

FWIW, here are a few contemporaneous excerpts from the NYT re Goring winning the Smythe:
(NYT, May 22, 81)

In the swirl of champagne that bubbled through the Islanders' locker room tonight, Butch Goring acknowledged his surprise at having been selected the winner of the Conn Smythe Trophy as the most valuable player of the entire Stanley Cup playoffs.

''You always hope for something like this,'' the bearded center said. ''And we've got some great players who could've won it - Mike Bossy, Denis Potvin along with Bryan Trottier - so for me to win it is really something special.''

Bossy had been a strong candidate for the Smythe Trophy but said he was ''very happy'' that Goring had won it. ''The whole team deserved it, for that matter,'' Bossy said. ''Everybody did their job. That's why we won.''

[Goring]: ''I'm happy to have won the Conn Smythe, but you can't forget three guys like Bossy, Trots and Potvin, who broke all kinds of records. I couldn't have won it without them always being around, and the team wouldn't have won the Cup without them, either.''

 

[reckoning]

Potvin or Bossy would've been fine choices, but Goring was also deserving. It's not going to show up in statistics, but he contributed defensively significantly. Having Goring as the #2C took a lot of pressure off Trottier, who no longer had to take all the defensive zone received and could concentrate more on offense.

Another factor about 1981 specifically is that the first round series against Toronto was a joke. The Leafs were absolutely terrible, and the Isles easily won all games by blowouts. Bossy racked up 10 points in the series, but they really didn't mean anything. Bossy still holds an edge over Goring over the other rounds (25-17), but it's not unreasonable to suggest that Goring's defence made up the difference.

 

[tabness]

Everything I've read contemporaneously about the dynasty Islanders places far more importance on the depth players than they are given now (and from what I've seen myself going back and watching this definitely seems to be a deserved sentiment) where as memories fade and only stats and reputations of the greats remain, people seem to want to make it like they deserved the recognition in the past.

Butch Goring in 1981 not only won the Conn Smythe, he won the Sport Magazine MVP trophy for outstanding player in the finals. The North Stars themselves were on the Goring tip.

Where can I find voting records for the Conn Smythe Trophy?

Hockey Reference has voting records for the other awards, but I'm not finding anything for the Smythe. Are historic ballots available anywhere to take a look at?

hfboards.mandatory.com

 

[sr edler]

People should try to be a little less obsessed with these awards.

Look at what players did instead and judge it from that. And sometimes a Cup winning team's got more than one good player (yeah, crazy).

I was too young to watch it myself, only a few weeks old, but Goring by all contemporary accounts was fantastic that post-season, or fantastic in general during the Isles dynasty.

This is not something egregious that never happened otherwise, it happens quite a lot. Messier won a Smythe over Gretzky. Vernon won a Smythe over Fyodorov. Nieuwendyk won a Smythe over Modano. Justin Williams won a Smythe, Doughty and Kopitar didn't. Ovechkin won a Smythe over Kuznetsov because clout. Kucherov had back-to-back Cups with 30+ points, no Smythe. Et cetera.

 

[VanIslander]

1. Goring over Crosby in terms of deserving it;

2. Potvin all day long.

 

[LightningStorm]

Couple of points based on reactions I've seen:

1. I've seen Goring's great finals pointed out. That would be more relevant if this were the NBA and the MVP was just for the finals, not the whole postseason. Across all 4 rounds it's harder to justify him over Potvin and Bossy.

2. In terms of his defensive contributions, that's an argument you could make for him winning over Bossy, but not Potvin. Though between those 2 I've seen more choose Potvin than Bossy in this thread.

3. Sure there's been other controversial selections, but most only involve one notable teammate being passed over as oppose to two.

All in all, the arguments I've seen upthread for Goring are sufficient for him being a very important piece to the Isles that postseason and their dynasty as a whole, but insufficient when making the argument for him being playoff MVP.

But back to the main question, who would've been a better choice that spring between Bossy and Potvin?

 

[Staniowski]

Everything I've read contemporaneously about the dynasty Islanders places far more importance on the depth players than they are given now (and from what I've seen myself going back and watching this definitely seems to be a deserved sentiment) where as memories fade and only stats and reputations of the greats remain, people seem to want to make it like they deserved the recognition in the past.

Butch Goring in 1981 not only won the Conn Smythe, he won the Sport Magazine MVP trophy for outstanding player in the finals. The North Stars themselves were on the Goring tip.

View attachment 564218
View attachment 564219

Where can I find voting records for the Conn Smythe Trophy?

Hockey Reference has voting records for the other awards, but I'm not finding anything for the Smythe. Are historic ballots available anywhere to take a look at?

hfboards.mandatory.com

Yes, I always try to stress the depth of the Islanders. When I think of their dynasty years, the guys I think about the most are their 2nd, 3rd and 4th line forwards, guys like Goring, Tonelli, Nystrom, the Sutters (Dog and Pup), Kallur....they had pretty good depth at D and G too but their forward depth was the best.

Their 3 star skaters were perfect too....they worked well together but they were very different from each other, and they were as hard working and dedicated and smart as any players on the team.

And the team was very well coached. They played great defense and a great support system all over the ice. They were a real team.
--------------------
All great teams need the depth players to play starring roles, at times. If your 2nd and 3rd lines aren't sometimes your best lines, you're probably not going to have much success. The Islanders had that.

 

[Staniowski]

Couple of points based on reactions I've seen:

1. I've seen Goring's great finals pointed out. That would be more relevant if this were the NBA and the MVP was just for the finals, not the whole postseason. Across all 4 rounds it's harder to justify him over Potvin and Bossy.

2. In terms of his defensive contributions, that's an argument you could make for him winning over Bossy, but not Potvin. Though between those 2 I've seen more choose Potvin than Bossy in this thread.

3. Sure there's been other controversial selections, but most only involve one notable teammate being passed over as oppose to two.

All in all, the arguments I've seen upthread for Goring are sufficient for him being a very important piece to the Isles that postseason and their dynasty as a whole, but insufficient when making the argument for him being playoff MVP.

But back to the main question, who would've been a better choice that spring between Bossy and Potvin?

Goring wasn't a controversial choice, though.....that's the problem with what you're saying.

 

[wetcoast]

Goring was a ridiculous selection in 1981. I would have voted for Potvin but Bossy would have been a sensible selection as well.

It's interesting that the trade that brought Goring to the Islanders is widely credited as the reason for putting the team over the top. I suspect that the Islanders would have won anyway even if they'd stood pat at the trade deadline. It's notable that this particular deadline trade has inspired teams to make so many ill advised deadline moves over the years.

couldn't agree more with this post and I loved Butch but man that CS and his "legacy" because of it, is "over rated HHOF material"

 

[MS]

"Butch Goring winning the 1981 Conn Smythe is arguably the most controversial Conn Smythe selection in the expansion era." - It was absolutely NOT controversial at the time, I'm not sure where you're getting this from. I'm guessing you weren't around to witness his play that year, and are just looking at stats and comparing.

Goring wasn't a controversial choice, though.....that's the problem with what you're saying.

Being a non-controversial choice at the time and being a really, really bad choice are not mutually exclusive, though.

Take the 1990 AL Cy Young award in MLB. Bob Welch won 27 games, the highest total anyone had recorded since 1968 and cakewalked to the award. Not even remotely controversial at the time as wins were generally considered the barometer for a good starting pitcher. 30 years later, we know that wins are a really bad stat, that Welch was actually just a 'pretty good' pitcher who got insane run support behind a powerhouse team, and that Roger Clemens actually had probably the best season of any pitcher in baseball between 1985 and 1995 and really should have been the unanimous winner. 10.4 WAR for Clemens vs. 2.9 WAR for Welch.

Mike Bossy and Denis Potvin are top-end HHOF guys and two of the greatest players in NHL history. In 1981, both played at basically the absolute highest level of their careers during that playoffs. Potvin at a 105 point/80 GP pace on the blueline, and Bossy at nearly 2 points/game.

There is absolutely no way that Butch Goring was more valuable to his team than those to all-time greats playing the most valuable hockey of their careers. It's just not a thing. It's not possible. It doesn't make sense. It's basically saying that peak Butch Goring was better than peak Denis Potvin and peak Mike Bossy.

You could maybe make a case for 'Finals MVP' like the NBA does based on Goring's clutch scoring vs. Minnesota, but the Conn Smythe is not a Finals-only award. And on the strength of that whole playoffs, his award win is ridiculous.

 

[JackSlater]

Being a non-controversial choice at the time and being a really, really bad choice are not mutually exclusive, though.

Take the 1990 AL Cy Young award in MLB. Bob Welch won 27 games, the highest total anyone had recorded since 1968 and cakewalked to the award. Not even remotely controversial at the time as wins were generally considered the barometer for a good starting pitcher. 30 years later, we know that wins are a really bad stat, that Welch was actually just a 'pretty good' pitcher who got insane run support behind a powerhouse team, and that Roger Clemens actually had probably the best season of any pitcher in baseball between 1985 and 1995 and really should have been the unanimous winner. 10.4 WAR for Clemens vs. 2.9 WAR for Welch.

Mike Bossy and Denis Potvin are top-end HHOF guys and two of the greatest players in NHL history. In 1981, both played at basically the absolute highest level of their careers during that playoffs. Potvin at a 105 point/80 GP pace on the blueline, and Bossy at nearly 2 points/game.

There is absolutely no way that Butch Goring was more valuable to his team than those to all-time greats playing the most valuable hockey of their careers. It's just not a thing. It's not possible. It doesn't make sense. It's basically saying that peak Butch Goring was better than peak Denis Potvin and peak Mike Bossy.

You could maybe make a case for 'Finals MVP' like the NBA does based on Goring's clutch scoring vs. Minnesota, but the Conn Smythe is not a Finals-only award. And on the strength of that whole playoffs, his award win is ridiculous.

Those are pretty much my thoughts. Even ignoring Bossy, if Potvin outscored Goring by five points then it's difficult to say that Goring was better offensively, even if Goring didn't get as much prime power play time. But how did he have the same defensive impact as actual elite defenceman Denis Potvin? It isn't as if he was as irreplaceable as Potvin, far and away the team's best defenceman, and it isn't as though he was the leader of the team rather than Potvin.

Being uncontroversial at the time does not mean that something was correct. I'm sure we've all disagreed with award results from recent years that were not widely controversial. It's not a slight to Goring either, it's just the reality that he had two all time greats at his team performing near the best of their abilities, plus another who was certainly well within his prime.

 

[MS]

Those are pretty much my thoughts. Even ignoring Bossy, if Potvin outscored Goring by five points then it's difficult to say that Goring was better offensively, even if Goring didn't get as much prime power play time. But how did he have the same defensive impact as actual elite defenceman Denis Potvin? It isn't as if he was as irreplaceable as Potvin, far and away the team's best defenceman, and it isn't as though he was the leader of the team rather than Potvin.

Being uncontroversial at the time does not mean that something was correct. I'm sure we've all disagreed with award results from recent years that were not widely controversial. It's not a slight to Goring either, it's just the reality that he had two all time greats at his team performing near the best of their abilities, plus another who was certainly well within his prime.

Exactly.

In 1981 Denis Potvin was a top-10 defender in the history of the sport at age 27 having the most dominant playoffs of his career. This is an all-time great at his absolute peak level, and his absolute peak level involves elite play at both ends of the rink.

Butch Goring was a fine player who had a great playoffs and this is no knock on him. But there's just no way he was more valuable to that run than what Bossy and Potvin did.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

Being a non-controversial choice at the time and being a really, really bad choice are not mutually exclusive, though.

Take the 1990 AL Cy Young award in MLB. Bob Welch won 27 games, the highest total anyone had recorded since 1968 and cakewalked to the award. Not even remotely controversial at the time as wins were generally considered the barometer for a good starting pitcher. 30 years later, we know that wins are a really bad stat, that Welch was actually just a 'pretty good' pitcher who got insane run support behind a powerhouse team, and that Roger Clemens actually had probably the best season of any pitcher in baseball between 1985 and 1995 and really should have been the unanimous winner. 10.4 WAR for Clemens vs. 2.9 WAR for Welch.

I agree that awards decisions can be wrong, but comparing the sabermetric revolution to people second-guessing awards voting based on box score stats strikes me as a completely false analogy.

If somebody charted those games and presented some numbers that showed which Islanders were driving the play and contributing on defence, then I'd be totally on board. But trying to argue that our knowledge of points and plus/minus has advanced in the last 40 years doesn't really fly, and what else are we bringing to the table here exactly in terms of information that they didn't have available in 1981? Everyone was well aware that Bossy and Potvin both broke playoff scoring records for skaters and defencemen respectively, and they still gave the Smythe to Goring anyway.

Mike Bossy and Denis Potvin are top-end HHOF guys and two of the greatest players in NHL history. In 1981, both played at basically the absolute highest level of their careers during that playoffs. Potvin at a 105 point/80 GP pace on the blueline, and Bossy at nearly 2 points/game.

There is absolutely no way that Butch Goring was more valuable to his team than those to all-time greats playing the most valuable hockey of their careers. It's just not a thing. It's not possible. It doesn't make sense. It's basically saying that peak Butch Goring was better than peak Denis Potvin and peak Mike Bossy.

I don't buy that Denis Potvin was playing at his peak for most of the 1981 playoffs. Is this opinion based on anything other than his playoff stats and the fact that he won the Norris that year?

Potvin's stats look impressive because he racked up 14 points (including 8 secondary assists) in the first 5 games of the playoffs against the 71 point Leafs and 74 point Oilers, with four of those games played at home and all of them won by 3 or more goals. Over the rest of the postseason, he was held scoreless in 8 out of 13 games, totalling just 4 even strength points and 11 points overall. He still had a couple of big games, but it just doesn't seem plausible that he was playing like peak Potvin every night. All reports also seem to indicate that he spent much of the Stanley Cup Final battling injuries, including barely playing a regular shift in the clinching contest.

I'd argue 1981 was actually Potvin's worst effort of the entire Islanders dynasty at the business end of the playoffs, i.e. rounds 3 and 4 combined:

Denis Potvin, Playoff Rounds 3 and 4, 1980-1983:

Year	GP	G	A	P	+/-	Avg Opp
1980​	12​	5​	8​	13​	8​	113 pts
1981​	9​	2​	7​	9​	7​	81 pts
1982​	8​	3​	11​	14​	7​	80 pts
1983​	10​	4​	6​	10​	8​	108 pts

The voters obviously didn't care about Potvin racking up those blowout points against the #13 and #16 seeds. All the newspaper articles I've seen suggest that it was viewed as a battle between Bossy and Goring. Reporters straight-up asked Bossy about Goring winning the Smythe after game 5 (Bossy said he was "very happy" for Butch), but I've never seen any similar quotes from Potvin, or anything else in the media suggesting that Potvin was robbed.

You could maybe make a case for 'Finals MVP' like the NBA does based on Goring's clutch scoring vs. Minnesota, but the Conn Smythe is not a Finals-only award. And on the strength of that whole playoffs, his award win is ridiculous.

The Smythe is a most valuable player award, not a best player award, and if there was ever a postseason in post-expansion NHL history where you could defensibly award a Smythe based exclusively on the Final then 1981 fits the bill. That was one of only two years where they seeded teams from 1-16, and as a result after a few early upsets the Islanders ended up with one of the weakest slates of opponents ever faced by a champion. As a 110 point top seed, they drew 71, 74 and 74 point teams in the first three rounds, before going against the 87 point North Stars in the Finals.

You mentioned advanced stats earlier, and I'd point out that win probability added is an stat that seems relevant in this discussion about player value. I very much doubt that anything that happened in the first three rounds in the 1981 postseason had a significant impact on New York's championship probability added, given that the Isles were likely 85-90%+ favourites in all three of those series. Butch Goring was the consensus best Islander in the only series they had a realistic chance of losing. Isn't that actually a pretty solid case as "most valuable"?

In the dynasty era, Conn Smythe voters obviously focused more on the Stanley Cup Final than they did over the rest of the playoffs, and I don't see any reason to criticize that choice. After all, from 1975 to 1988 no defending Stanley Cup champion lost in the first round. It strikes me as blatantly anachronistic to criticize past voters for not caring equally about all rounds, just because in the current NHL teams are actually at risk of being eliminated from game 1.

In summary, if you think Bossy should have won the 1981 Smythe, then fine, I'm not going to argue. But the Potvin advocacy strikes me as purely stats- and name-based revisionism that doesn't really hold up to any actual scrutiny. To me, Goring over Potvin seems both fully defensible and completely in line with the consistently established Smythe voting standards of the late '70s/early '80s.

 

[The Panther]

This was before my time, but is it fair to say the Islanders had a relatively easy path to the Cup in 1981?
vs. .444 Toronto (Isles outscore them 20 to 4)
vs. .463 Edmonton
vs. 463 Rangers
vs. .544 North Stars (third-place team, sixth-worst offensively)

Could any of these clubs even challenge the Isles? I know they'd lost to the Rangers in '79, but that was before the Isles were a Cup team, and the '81 Rangers weren't a good club. The North Stars had some great young talent, but they don't strike me as a serious contender at all.

Goring did well in the finals, statistically, but so did Potvin, with 6 points in five games and a series-best +6. I haven't watched those games or read the detailed summaries, but just on the surface it doesn't appear that Goring did enough vs. Potvin in the Finals to merit a clear Conn Smythe preference if Potvin had outperformed him previously.

Also, Wayne Merrick seems to have done pretty well in rounds three and four:
5G + 8A = 13PTS (+9) in nine games
Wonder if he got any Conn Smythe attention...?

 

[MS]

I agree that awards decisions can be wrong, but comparing the sabermetric revolution to people second-guessing awards voting based on box score stats strikes me as a completely false analogy.

If somebody charted those games and presented some numbers that showed which Islanders were driving the play and contributing on defence, then I'd be totally on board. But trying to argue that our knowledge of points and plus/minus has advanced in the last 40 years doesn't really fly, and what else are we bringing to the table here exactly in terms of information that they didn't have available in 1981? Everyone was well aware that Bossy and Potvin both broke playoff scoring records for skaters and defencemen respectively, and they still gave the Smythe to Goring anyway.



I don't buy that Denis Potvin was playing at his peak for most of the 1981 playoffs. Is this opinion based on anything other than his playoff stats and the fact that he won the Norris that year?

Potvin's stats look impressive because he racked up 14 points (including 8 secondary assists) in the first 5 games of the playoffs against the 71 point Leafs and 74 point Oilers, with four of those games played at home and all of them won by 3 or more goals. Over the rest of the postseason, he was held scoreless in 8 out of 13 games, totalling just 4 even strength points and 11 points overall. He still had a couple of big games, but it just doesn't seem plausible that he was playing like peak Potvin every night. All reports also seem to indicate that he spent much of the Stanley Cup Final battling injuries, including barely playing a regular shift in the clinching contest.

I'd argue 1981 was actually Potvin's worst effort of the entire Islanders dynasty at the business end of the playoffs, i.e. rounds 3 and 4 combined:

Denis Potvin, Playoff Rounds 3 and 4, 1980-1983:

Year	GP	G	A	P	+/-	Avg Opp
1980​	12​	5​	8​	13​	8​	113 pts
1981​	9​	2​	7​	9​	7​	81 pts
1982​	8​	3​	11​	14​	7​	80 pts
1983​	10​	4​	6​	10​	8​	108 pts

The voters obviously didn't care about Potvin racking up those blowout points against the #13 and #16 seeds. All the newspaper articles I've seen suggest that it was viewed as a battle between Bossy and Goring. Reporters straight-up asked Bossy about Goring winning the Smythe after game 5 (Bossy said he was "very happy" for Butch), but I've never seen any similar quotes from Potvin, or anything else in the media suggesting that Potvin was robbed.



The Smythe is a most valuable player award, not a best player award, and if there was ever a postseason in post-expansion NHL history where you could defensibly award a Smythe based exclusively on the Final then 1981 fits the bill. That was one of only two years where they seeded teams from 1-16, and as a result after a few early upsets the Islanders ended up with one of the weakest slates of opponents ever faced by a champion. As a 110 point top seed, they drew 71, 74 and 74 point teams in the first three rounds, before going against the 87 point North Stars in the Finals.

You mentioned advanced stats earlier, and I'd point out that win probability added is an stat that seems relevant in this discussion about player value. I very much doubt that anything that happened in the first three rounds in the 1981 postseason had a significant impact on New York's championship probability added, given that the Isles were likely 85-90%+ favourites in all three of those series. Butch Goring was the consensus best Islander in the only series they had a realistic chance of losing. Isn't that actually a pretty solid case as "most valuable"?

In the dynasty era, Conn Smythe voters obviously focused more on the Stanley Cup Final than they did over the rest of the playoffs, and I don't see any reason to criticize that choice. After all, from 1975 to 1988 no defending Stanley Cup champion lost in the first round. It strikes me as blatantly anachronistic to criticize past voters for not caring equally about all rounds, just because in the current NHL teams are actually at risk of being eliminated from game 1.

In summary, if you think Bossy should have won the 1981 Smythe, then fine, I'm not going to argue. But the Potvin advocacy strikes me as purely stats- and name-based revisionism that doesn't really hold up to any actual scrutiny. To me, Goring over Potvin seems both fully defensible and completely in line with the consistently established Smythe voting standards of the late '70s/early '80s.

It isn't an award based on the Finals only, and it has always been awarded as a 'best player' award for the playoffs.

I used Potvin in my previous post because the previous poster had mentioned him. Bossy probably has an even stronger case.

And it's the exact same argument, and it's still ridiculous. Peak Butch Goring was not better (or more valuable) than peak Mike Bossy scoring 2 points/game, regardless of whether voters liked the narrative of Goring winning or were swayed by a couple goals in the Cup clinching game.

 

[LightningStorm]

It isn't an award based on the Finals only, and it has always been awarded as a 'best player' award for the playoffs.

I used Potvin in my previous post because the previous poster had mentioned him. Bossy probably has an even stronger case.

And it's the exact same argument, and it's still ridiculous. Peak Butch Goring was not better (or more valuable) than peak Mike Bossy scoring 2 points/game, regardless of whether voters liked the narrative of Goring winning or were swayed by a couple goals in the Cup clinching game.

You and @JackSlater nailed it in terms of how Goring didn't match up to Bossy and Potvin this postseason. Another angle I thought of too is as weak as Goring's case is on it's own against both his teammates, it's nearly impossible to make the case he was better than both in conjunction with one another, because making the case for him winning over one more or less negates his case over the other. This is especially true for his case over Bossy negating his case over Potvin.

Also, for the Isles other 3 cups, the most consistently best player through all 4 rounds won the Conn Smythe, so it wasn't as much of a Finals MVP as some are making it out to be.

This isn't the only CS I've disagreed with, but I could at least see where the voters were coming from in other years I thought they got the winner wrong. Not so when it comes to 1981.

 

[LightningStorm]

This was before my time, but is it fair to say the Islanders had a relatively easy path to the Cup in 1981?
vs. .444 Toronto (Isles outscore them 20 to 4)
vs. .463 Edmonton
vs. 463 Rangers
vs. .544 North Stars (third-place team, sixth-worst offensively)

Could any of these clubs even challenge the Isles? I know they'd lost to the Rangers in '79, but that was before the Isles were a Cup team, and the '81 Rangers weren't a good club. The North Stars had some great young talent, but they don't strike me as a serious contender at all.

Goring did well in the finals, statistically, but so did Potvin, with 6 points in five games and a series-best +6. I haven't watched those games or read the detailed summaries, but just on the surface it doesn't appear that Goring did enough vs. Potvin in the Finals to merit a clear Conn Smythe preference if Potvin had outperformed him previously.

Also, Wayne Merrick seems to have done pretty well in rounds three and four:
5G + 8A = 13PTS (+9) in nine games
Wonder if he got any Conn Smythe attention...?

This was an easy path, in large party because of the 1-16 format, with 16 teams making it in a 21 team league.

Interesting that you ask about this as an Oilers fan, because I thought Edmonton was the best team they faced. even purely looking at things in a 1981 context. I disagree with ContrarianGoltender about the North Stars being the Isles best opponent (and using that reasoning for why Goring should've won the CS). Not that the best team among this 4 is an impressive feat.

Since this is a 1981 context we're looking at, Gretzky has won his 2nd MVP in as many seasons, and the Art Ross outright. His 164 points broke Esposito's previous record of 152. So a record setting scorer, but still a season away from a record shattering scorer from when he'd have 212 points the next season. Already a great 50 goal scorer, but still a season away from the record shattering 92.

For the Oilers as a team, they did finish with a losing record of 29-35-16, meaning they were the #14 seed. But let's take a look at their month leading up to their mid April QF series against the Isles, which began on April 16. On March 15, they were 22-34-13. But in their final 11 RS games, they go 7-1-3, most notably going 5-0-1 in their final 6. Then in R1 against #3 seed Montreal, that was a series you'd definitely expect the Habs to win. Sure, their late 70's dynasty was waning with those key losses in the 1979 offseason. but you'd still expect those experienced vets to beat a team making their playoff debut. But the Oilers stomped them in a 3 game sweep, outscoring them 15-6.

Edmonton having the MVP, a hot finish to the RS, and sweeping the experienced champions in Montreal was IMO enough for them to clear the rather low bar of being the best of the Isles 4 opponents in 1981. It's no surprise they handed the Isles 2 of their only 3 losses, with their only other loss being to the North Stars when they already had a 3-0 lead. Only team to win at Nassau that postseason too. The Oilers were a better team at the time they were playing the Isles than their regular season record indicated.

 

[sr edler]

Not everything is about accumulated point totals.

Did anyone of the people in the thread being so negative about Goring actually watch the 1981 playoffs? I didn't myself, but it seems you guys are so very assured about your position.

If I didn't watch the 2021 playoffs for instance and only looked at the stats, someone like Philip Danault, 1 goal and 4 points and –1 in 22 games, looks very underwhelming, like a borderline healthy scratch-able passenger. But if I was actually there and watched it myself, I would have seen a player who was arguably his team's most valuable skater, playing the toughest minutes and running the oh so effective shutdown line with Evans & Gallagher like clockwork.

These attempts at revisionism based on stat watching and name-recognition comes across quite lazy to me.