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Prospect Info: #191, Otto Kivenmaki

Kivenmäki has had groin injury for last 2 months. It was better at some point and he was close to returning, but then it went bad again. Now he is probably out for the rest of the season.

He is also moving to Pelicans Lahti from Ässät for next season.

There is one of the best, maybe current best Finnish coach/coaching environment for young kids to develop. Our youngest Finnish coaching star, Tommi Niemelä is coaching that team, 2018 U18 World Championship team head coach. He is a really positive guy and on his first season already did do miracles for Pelicans less than average roster. Really young team, which should struggle but guys are taking huge developmental steps and the is hanging on at the top6.

I really hope that Kivenmäki goes there for a year and does not think Griffins at all. Could sign ELC, but please stay at Europe, no reason to go for that NA travel hell.
 
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Henkka said:
Kivenmäki has had groin injury for last 2 months. It was better at some point and he was close to returning, but then it went bad again. Now he is probably out for the rest of the season.

He is also moving to Pelicans Lahti from Ässät for next season.

There is one of the best, maybe current best Finnish coach/coaching environment for young kids to develop. Our youngest Finnish coaching star, Tommi Niemelä is coaching that team, 2018 U18 World Championship team head coach. He is a really positive guy and on his first season already did do miracles for Pelicans less than average roster. Really young team, which should struggle but guys are taking huge developmental steps and the is hanging on at the top6.

I really hope that Kivenmäki goes there for a year and does not think Griffins at all. Could sign ELC, but please stay at Europe, no reason to go for that NA travel hell.
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He played in the last game... I'm confused
 
lhsgolf19 said:
He played in the last game... I'm confused
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Yeah, just did read about the injury that the groin re-flared after the game he played. It's like today's morning news.

There's 9 games and 3 weeks left of the season, and Ässät not gonna make the playoffs. So the season end is very near for him.
 
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Henkka said:
Yeah, just did read about the injury that the groin re-flared after the game he played. It's like today's morning news.

There's 9 games and 3 weeks left of the season, and Ässät not gonna make the playoffs. So the season end is very near for him.
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Oh Gotcha
 
Henkka said:
Kivenmäki has had groin injury for last 2 months. It was better at some point and he was close to returning, but then it went bad again. Now he is probably out for the rest of the season.

He is also moving to Pelicans Lahti from Ässät for next season.

There is one of the best, maybe current best Finnish coach/coaching environment for young kids to develop. Our youngest Finnish coaching star, Tommi Niemelä is coaching that team, 2018 U18 World Championship team head coach. He is a really positive guy and on his first season already did do miracles for Pelicans less than average roster. Really young team, which should struggle but guys are taking huge developmental steps and the is hanging on at the top6.

I really hope that Kivenmäki goes there for a year and does not think Griffins at all. Could sign ELC, but please stay at Europe, no reason to go for that NA travel hell.
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If anything it is more of a reason to go to the AHL and get used to the travel of the NHL in a much less high stakes environment. If travel times are such a detriment to a prospect's NHL hopes, then I'm not interested in them as a prospect.
 
Tetsuo said:
If anything it is more of a reason to go to the AHL and get used to the travel of the NHL in a much less high stakes environment. If travel times are such a detriment to a prospect's NHL hopes, then I'm not interested in them as a prospect.
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You know there's a "minor" difference in NHL travelling (aeroplane) and AHL travelling (bus)..?

AHL travelling times will hurt development, because the rest isn't always optimal.

And in Finland that bus travelling times are quite equal to NHL travelling with an aeroplane. Lahti is at good spot, better than Pori, one of the midpoints vs other cities. Also smaller sized of rink (28m width).
 
Where did the idea that AHL travel times are hurting prospect development come from?
 
jaster said:
Where did the idea that AHL travel times are hurting prospect development come from?
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Idk, I don't like that train of thought either. If they can't be a professional then, well whatever. Lol.

No one goes to the AHL really with a 2-4 year plan anyway, guys stay overseas or college/minors vs do that. It's more of a transition league for skill prospects imo to see if they can handle the physicality/speed/etc. it's rink size and players are good quality to throw at a prospect in for a season to transition. It's never good to hear about a prospect in the AHL for 4 plus years, imo... usually means they're just a grinder type player if they ever make it at all.
 
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jaster said:
Where did the idea that AHL travel times are hurting prospect development come from?
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When seeing how great our prospects are developing in Sweden.

How Steve Yzerman considered that league (Sweden) as the best developmental league, and did sent our non-Swedish prospects there.

They can do everything right at Griffins, but not cut the travel times on European country standars.

And rest is important for development.

There has been worries and questioning about our developing system, why there's no results like there once was? And at same time AHL is still a bus league + expanding geographically. The longest travel happen in Central division, where Griffins are located. Some of the "Rivals" like Texas and Manitoba are far away, other Divisions are even further away. It is not the same League as it once was.

Those are things I see as a concern. Maybe Yzerman will see the same.
 
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Henkka said:
When seeing how great our prospects are developing in Sweden.

How Steve Yzerman considered that league (Sweden) as the best developmental league, and did sent our non-Swedish prospects there.

They can do everything right at Griffins, but not cut the travel times on European country standars.

And rest is important for development.

There has been worries and questioning about our developing system, why there's no results like there once was? And at same time AHL is still a bus league + expanding geographically. The longest travel happen in Central division, where Griffins are located. Some of the "Rivals" like Texas and Manitoba are far away, other Divisions are even further away. It is not the same League as it once was.

Those are things I see as a concern. Maybe Yzerman will see the same.
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Correlation does not equal causation though. There are so many factors involved in this comparison of development in Europe vs AHL. Chief among them, the quality of prospects in Europe vs the AHL. Where were these kids drafted? And where were they from originally? A great majority of our top picks in recent seasons have been from Europe. So it stands to reason that our prospects having the strongest seasons are.... in Europe. And as people point out on this board all the time, there seems to be a discrepancy in the quality of our NA scouts vs Euro scouts. So even with high picks like Rasmussen and Cholowski.... they probably shouldn't have gone that high.

Our non-Euro prospects who were in Europe were there because of COVID and NA leagues shutting down.

As for the traveling, I'm not saying it's not a factor. It surely is. But how much it's stunting development? I have doubts it's much at all. Additionally, there have been players who have said that while the travel is difficult, it helps with mental preparation, and team cohesiveness.

I mean hell, if 4-hour bus rides in the AHL are hurting players that much, then the 15-hour flights across 10 time zones in the KHL must be killing guys. They must be dropping like flies over there!
 
jaster said:
I mean hell, if 4-hour bus rides in the AHL are hurting players that much, then the 15-hour flights across 10 time zones in the KHL must be killing guys. They must be dropping like flies over there!
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I sleep better on a bus than on an airplane, the seats are much more comfortable. They recline further. I don't see much impact at all other than a few wasted hours every week.

I wonder if there's any stats on practice time in the NHL vs AHL.
 
Gniwder said:
I sleep better on a bus than on an airplane, the seats are much more comfortable. They recline further. I don't see much impact at all other than a few wasted hours every week.

I wonder if there's any stats on practice time in the NHL vs AHL.
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Also, most AHL buses do have bunks (though, admittedly, not enough for the whole team at once). Extra comfy. I was on the Chicago Wolves bus once. It was pimp.
 
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Henkka said:
When seeing how great our prospects are developing in Sweden.

How Steve Yzerman considered that league (Sweden) as the best developmental league, and did sent our non-Swedish prospects there.

They can do everything right at Griffins, but not cut the travel times on European country standars.

And rest is important for development.

There has been worries and questioning about our developing system, why there's no results like there once was? And at same time AHL is still a bus league + expanding geographically. The longest travel happen in Central division, where Griffins are located. Some of the "Rivals" like Texas and Manitoba are far away, other Divisions are even further away. It is not the same League as it once was.

Those are things I see as a concern. Maybe Yzerman will see the same.
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Well... this whole argument is an opinion based thesis/theory so Idk. Maybe Yzerman won't agree with you either? Just cause Wings, with Holland can't develop players doesn't mean the rest of the AHL teams around can't. The major reason, actually only reason these kids are over-seas is covid. Veleno/Seider would be here if it was a regular type of year. They were in North America the year prior. Zadina never spent any extended time over-sea's since drafted. No one is going to argue more rest is better, but are we going to act like these guys are... idk... not getting rest? Not getting therapy/treatment/body massages. Idk, you're right about travel but maybe blowing it out of proportion too? Idk.. Just my stupid humble hockey opinion... lol.

I'm not even totally disagreeing with you about the benefits for younger guys, especially younger foreign players of the benefits of player over-seas longer vs making the jump to North America right away. Worked out well for Puljujarvi who struggled early, culture shock plus fast game(idk guessing), took a year to settle his mind at home and is now looking like a legitimate NHL player.
 
Killerjas said:
Can we get on topic please?
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Asking people to stay on topic in a thread that is over a year old is an exercise in futility.

It would serve you better to start a discussion that would drive the conversation back on topic, rather than whinging about it.
 
TheClap said:
Asking people to stay on topic in a thread that is over a year old is an exercise in futility.

It would serve you better to start a discussion that would drive the conversation back on topic, rather than whinging about it.
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Mate I want to talk about his performance instead of reading about AHL bus tours lmao

Anyways, you guys reckon he stays in Finland for another year? I do believe he is not AHL ready. He needs to bulk up first
 
Killerjas said:
Mate I want to talk about his performance instead of reading about AHL bus tours lmao

Anyways, you guys reckon he stays in Finland for another year? I do believe he is not AHL ready. He needs to bulk up first
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I'd wager you're probably right, he'll stay in Finland another year. I don't think he'd crack the GR line-up next year.
 
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Anyone have an idea why his production in the Liiga has dipped?
 
At a point per game in the playoffs after a 50-point season for a SaiPa team enjoying a successful season after years of struggling.

Is he a late bloomer or are his numbers a reflection of the level of play in Liiga?
 
Jersey Fan 12 said:
At a point per game in the playoffs after a 50-point season for a SaiPa team enjoying a successful season after years of struggling.

Is he a late bloomer or are his numbers a reflection of the level of play in Liiga?
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If I remember correctly he suffered some major injuries post draft that really hindered his development. Smaller guy too if I remember so I'd think its probably a combo of both. At 5'8, 173ish lbs and at age 25 I doubt he comes over stateside but you never know.
 
19 for president said:
If I remember correctly he suffered some major injuries post draft that really hindered his development. Smaller guy too if I remember so I'd think its probably a combo of both. At 5'8, 173ish lbs and at age 25 I doubt he comes over stateside but you never know.
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He got his brain absolutely melted with a huge hit and that was all she wrote. Its great to see he has had a resurgence in his career though, hits like he took can be career enders. Shoulder to the head, his bucket goes flying, and he slams the back of his head on the ice. The double whammy.

If blood bothers you its probably best to not watch this
 
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