Prospect Info: 15th overall — C Dylan Larkin: Larkin signs 3 year entry deal

[SpookyTsuki]

what roster will look if weiss and or jurco gets traded

Z/ Dats / Nyquist
Abby/ Sheahan / Tats
Pulk / Helm / Jurco/ free agent or Andersson/Miller
Miller/Andersson / Glen / Callahan

I don't see Larkin making the roster without injuries, Or unless Holland trades Nyquist/Tats for a dman, Or trades Abby or Helm for something (this wont happen in the offseason)

 

[Mijatovic]

Lots of middling, very little top end talent.

I wouldnt be against us trading a certain combination of Nyquist/Tatar/Pulkinnen/Jurco/high end draft picks to get a true number 1 D or a high top end forward.

We have too many forwards for too little spots.

Those we wont get rid of: Z. D, Franzen, Abby, Glendenning, Miller
Those we probably wont: Sheahan, Tatar, Nyquist, Jurco, Helm, Pulkinnen
The rest: Weiss, Andersson

Thats already 14 forwards. There was talk of Mantha coming up last year, I bet itll crop up again this year. 15. Larkin. 16. Athanasiou has looked pretty damn good. Maybe he has an awesome camp. 17. Callahan had a great year. 18.

Gotta thin that herd of 2nd/3rd/4th liners and get some true top liners.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Lots of middling, very little top end talent.

I wouldnt be against us trading a certain combination of Nyquist/Tatar/Pulkinnen/Jurco/high end draft picks to get a true number 1 D or a high top end forward.

We have too many forwards for too little spots.

Those we wont get rid of: Z. D, Franzen, Abby, Glendenning, Miller
Those we probably wont: Sheahan, Tatar, Nyquist, Jurco, Helm, Pulkinnen
The rest: Weiss, Andersson

Thats already 14 forwards. There was talk of Mantha coming up last year, I bet itll crop up again this year. 15. Larkin. 16. Athanasiou has looked pretty damn good. Maybe he has an awesome camp. 17. Callahan had a great year. 18.

Gotta thin that herd of 2nd/3rd/4th liners and get some true top liners.

I think Callahans Injuries killed his Detroit carrer, Hope im wrong about it Holland needs to make a trade.

 

[waltdetroit]

Don't use something so inaccurate. Try elite prospects, though they short him back in his comp hockey days

wow big difference. It is hard for me to imagine 90+ games a year at that age

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Lots of middling, very little top end talent.

I wouldnt be against us trading a certain combination of Nyquist/Tatar/Pulkinnen/Jurco/high end draft picks to get a true number 1 D or a high top end forward.

We have too many forwards for too little spots.

Those we wont get rid of: Z. D, Franzen, Abby, Glendenning, Miller
Those we probably wont: Sheahan, Tatar, Nyquist, Jurco, Helm, Pulkinnen
The rest: Weiss, Andersson

Thats already 14 forwards. There was talk of Mantha coming up last year, I bet itll crop up again this year. 15. Larkin. 16. Athanasiou has looked pretty damn good. Maybe he has an awesome camp. 17. Callahan had a great year. 18.

Gotta thin that herd of 2nd/3rd/4th liners and get some true top liners.

You're missing Ferraro who is likely ahead of both Weiss and Andersson and firmly in front of Callahan in terms of the thinking of the big club.

For the record they could also absolutely get rid of Miller, I doubt they will but he isn't a protected guy at all.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

You're missing Ferraro who is likely ahead of both Weiss and Andersson and firmly in front of Callahan in terms of the thinking of the big club.

For the record they could also absolutely get rid of Miller, I doubt they will but he isn't a protected guy at all.

I completely forget about Ferraro, I still think that Miller is 100% protected this season at least. Next season he might not be, He's one of the only people who block shots, And until Ferraro proves his worth miller stays.

 

[Henkka]

Next season is important to complete with Miller. We need him because A) he is very effective penalty-killer veteran B) and his main job is to tutor our young guns to become as effective.

 

[Winger98]

I completely forget about Ferraro, I still think that Miller is 100% protected this season at least. Next season he might not be, He's one of the only people who block shots, And until Ferraro proves his worth miller stays.

Blocking shots shouldn't be enough to protect his roster spot. We finished the year with a mediocre penalty kill (again), he's a fourth liner holding down all of 13.5 minutes a night, and we have a bit of a roster log jam. I think the best case for holding on to Miller is trading Helm and/or Gator. He'd be a vet voice inside the room at that point, and a more affordable one at that.

 

[jaster]

Well, lucky for Miller, blocking shots is not the only thing he provides.

There always seems to be a push to dump bottom-6 players in an effort to "clear the logjam," or find the next best thing. But Miller has a 4th-line winger spot locked down (at least for this upcoming season, as Bruce said), he's stapled to Glendening's hip. He's ahead of all other wing candidates for the 4th-line (Andersson, Ferraro, Callahan, Jurco, Weiss).

Like the dump-Howard discussion, it's something that may very well be a reality down the line, if other factors come into play, but today these topics are premature.

As for Larkin, I don't see him being a full-time Red Wing this season. I'll stick with my prediction from weeks ago that he'll see some time in Detroit next season, but play a vast majority of the year in GR, and then be a very likely candidate for a full-time spot in Detroit in 2016-17.

 

[Run the Jewels]

As for Larkin, I don't see him being a full-time Red Wing this season. I'll stick with my prediction from weeks ago that he'll see some time in Detroit next season, but play a vast majority of the year in GR, and then be a very likely candidate for a full-time spot in Detroit in 2016-17.

Yeah with Larkin I think the goal is to try to get him a 70+ point season in GR next year. If he can do that and get some games in Detroit it gives you hope he can be a scoring line center in the NHL of which we have none other than Pav and Z who shouldn't be relied on to be dominant players at this point in their careers.

Glendening has clearly eased their load but if we had Larkin in 2016-17 to help out that would make the transition go much more smoothly a couple years down the line.

 

[Winger98]

Well, lucky for Miller, blocking shots is not the only thing he provides.

There always seems to be a push to dump bottom-6 players in an effort to "clear the logjam," or find the next best thing. But Miller has a 4th-line winger spot locked down (at least for this upcoming season, as Bruce said), he's stapled to Glendening's hip. He's ahead of all other wing candidates for the 4th-line (Andersson, Ferraro, Callahan, Jurco, Weiss).

Like the dump-Howard discussion, it's something that may very well be a reality down the line, if other factors come into play, but today these topics are premature.

As for Larkin, I don't see him being a full-time Red Wing this season. I'll stick with my prediction from weeks ago that he'll see some time in Detroit next season, but play a vast majority of the year in GR, and then be a very likely candidate for a full-time spot in Detroit in 2016-17.

He doesn't just block shots,but what else does he provide that Ferraro couldn't? Or Helm if we were forced (had the luxury of) moving him to the fourth line? Or Callahan? Or Jurco?

Miller's a pretty unremarkable 4th liner whose calling card has been a key member of a mediocre penalty kill. I can get keeping him around if we want/need the vet in the locker room as we move kids into the lineup, but I have yet to see a convincing argument for him locking down that fourth line spot with solely what he brings on the ice.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Lots of middling, very little top end talent.

I wouldnt be against us trading a certain combination of Nyquist/Tatar/Pulkinnen/Jurco/high end draft picks to get a true number 1 D.

The D is the biggest need by far and we had a legit shot at Myers who I expect to be a consistent 50+ point d-man now that he's not on a team that was in full on tank mode. That type of guy will probably not be available again so you are stuck looking for an offensive d-man. Someone like Vatanen would be nice, he's not the #1 you need but he'd be a 50+ point d-man in Detroit and help improve our transition game, of which there is none right now.

Pulkkinen and Jurco don't have enough trade value to get you much of anything in return. You might still be able to get decent trade value for Mantha - he was rumored to be part of the Myers trade - but if you don't move him now his value could continue to plummet unless he has a big rebound year this year. That's a risk you take either way, whether you keep him and he never rebounds or you trade him and he blows up with another franchise.

If Holland can address the defense everything else starts to look better. We could get Rick Nash and we'd still be ****ed due to how incredibly mediocre our defense is at this point.

 

[jaster]

He doesn't just block shots,but what else does he provide that Ferraro couldn't? Or Helm if we were forced (had the luxury of) moving him to the fourth line? Or Callahan? Or Jurco?

Ferraro gets pushed around and knocked off the puck too easily, and often takes bad routes on the ice, probably because he thinks his speed can mitigate that. He's not as good defensively or on the PK as Miller (simply put, his [defensive] hockey IQ is inferior, and his skating doesn't come close to making up for it). His 4th-line game is a higher-speed, lower-hitting version of Jurco's, without having the upside to be more.

Helm won't be on the 4th-line, nor should he be. That would be roster mismanagement.

Callahan is not even on the radar. He needs to show that he is A) healthy, and B) an NHL-level player, let alone one as good as Miller (which I do not see happening this season, if ever). His skating is questionable at the NHL level, as is his defensive/PK game.

Jurco is a dependable crash-and-banger on the 4th line who's carved out some decent value in that role, but he's a kid we're still hoping develops beyond that. And really, when it comes to the things that make Miller valuable (5v5 defense, PKing, shot-blocking, work ethic), Jurco doesn't do any of them as well. His value (which I do like) lies elsewhere.

Miller's a pretty unremarkable 4th liner whose calling card has been a key member of a mediocre penalty kill. I can get keeping him around if we want/need the vet in the locker room as we move kids into the lineup, but I have yet to see a convincing argument for him locking down that fourth line spot with solely what he brings on the ice.

It's simply this: He is better than our other options, and he has proven it. An argument doesn't need to be made to show why he should have a 4th-line spot, since he already has it. The argument needs to be made to show he should be supplanted.

We can apply labels like "unremarkable" to him, and find faults in his game, but what really matters is that the other suggestions to take his spot either do not belong there (Helm), fit in there but don't do what Miller does (Jurco), or simply haven't shown they are (or even can be) better there (Ferraro, Callahan). And since there actually has to be 2 players who are better options in order to push him out of the 4th-line winger role, I don't see a convincing argument to show that he shouldn't have a 4th-line spot locked down.

 

[Winger98]

Ferraro gets pushed around and knocked off the puck too easily, and often takes bad routes on the ice, probably because he thinks his speed can mitigate that. He's not as good defensively or on the PK as Miller (simply put, his [defensive] hockey IQ is inferior, and his skating doesn't come close to making up for it). His 4th-line game is a higher-speed, lower-hitting version of Jurco's, without having the upside to be more.

Helm won't be on the 4th-line, nor should he be. That would be roster mismanagement.

Callahan is not even on the radar. He needs to show that he is A) healthy, and B) an NHL-level player, let alone one as good as Miller (which I do not see happening this season, if ever). His skating is questionable at the NHL level, as is his defensive/PK game.

Jurco is a dependable crash-and-banger on the 4th line who's carved out some decent value in that role, but he's a kid we're still hoping develops beyond that. And really, when it comes to the things that make Miller valuable (5v5 defense, PKing, shot-blocking, work ethic), Jurco doesn't do any of them as well. His value (which I do like) lies elsewhere.

It's simply this: He is better than our other options, and he has proven it. An argument doesn't need to be made to show why he should have a 4th-line spot, since he already has it. The argument needs to be made to show he should be supplanted.

We can apply labels like "unremarkable" to him, and find faults in his game, but what really matters is that the other suggestions to take his spot either do not belong there (Helm), fit in there but don't do what Miller does (Jurco), or simply haven't shown they are (or even can be) better there (Ferraro, Callahan). And since there actually has to be 2 players who are better options in order to push him out of the 4th-line winger role, I don't see a convincing argument to show that he shouldn't have a 4th-line spot locked down.

You can say Helm or Jurco doesn't belong on the fourth line, but the fourth line might be the spots that are open for them. Draper spent the majority of his career on the fourth line, as did Maltby and Mac, and all were better players than Helm. Were they mismanaged?

And I disagree about the fourth line not being a spot suited for Helm. His production this past season being fed scoring line time wasn't all that different from his production the years he was on the fourth line, and his hands are still mediocre. If we're injured or if we don't make any free agent moves, or if the whole "see what kids can earn a spot in camp" line is just lip service (alright, it is) then you can start finding room in the top9 for a guy like Helm or Jurco.

The only thing you can hit on for Miller is that he is, possibly, better defensively than a couple of his alternatives. His PK ability doesn't matter, we don't have a good enough PK to keep him around for that. part of the PK's mediocrity is Drew Miller.

I take any of the guys I listed over Miller right now. I like the chances of guys like Ferraro and Callahand growing into fourth line roles and bringing more to the club that Miller, and I don't see the fourth line as being a place where Helm or Jurco don't belong.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

Callahan hasn't really gotten the opportunity to show he's a capable NHL player... he showed a lot of potential in the preseason. He was tremendous in GR until his injury (they would be so stacked if he was still healthy).

 

[ChadS]

Callahan hasn't really gotten the opportunity to show he's a capable NHL player... he showed a lot of potential in the preseason. He was tremendous in GR until his injury (they would be so stacked if he was still healthy).

Blashill really likes him so I wouldn't be surprised to see him get a chance with the Wings.

 

[Dotter]

Would Larkin go top 10 in a re-draft?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Would Larkin go top 10 in a re-draft?

Yes, pretty easily.

Larkin would have gone top 10 if he didn't play behind Eichel at the USMNTDP. We really lucked out.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Would Larkin go top 10 in a re-draft?

Undoubtedly. Ekblad, Reinhart, Bennett, Draisaitl, Dal Colle, Larkin, Nylander, Ehlers are all very clear top 10 guys atm.

 

[Frk It]

For the record they could also absolutely get rid of Miller, I doubt they will but he isn't a protected guy at all.

With his steadily declining offense, he sure shouldn't be.

 

[jaster]

You can say Helm or Jurco doesn't belong on the fourth line, but the fourth line might be the spots that are open for them. Draper spent the majority of his career on the fourth line, as did Maltby and Mac, and all were better players than Helm. Were they mismanaged?

The Grind Line guys... that's pre-salary cap, apples and oranges Winger, you know that

For Jurco, that may very well be true. In fact, I kinda suspect that Jurco will be the most regular 4th-line winger, after Miller.

I don't see it with Helm. I don't see a likely scenario where he is on the 4th-line. He's easily one of our 9 best forwards.

And I disagree about the fourth line not being a spot suited for Helm. His production this past season being fed scoring line time wasn't all that different from his production the years he was on the fourth line, and his hands are still mediocre. If we're injured or if we don't make any free agent moves, or if the whole "see what kids can earn a spot in camp" line is just lip service (alright, it is) then you can start finding room in the top9 for a guy like Helm or Jurco.

In today's NHL, given the salary cap, I don't see how you can put Helm on the 4th line. He's a guy who obviously can play there and not be out of place, but he brings more to the table than what he would provide on the 4th line. You're losing more than you're gaining by putting him there. It's a net negative imo. You may as well trade him at that point.

Hank, Dats, Nyquist, Tatar, Abdelkader, Sheahan.... who else is ahead of him? Franzen, if he can somehow get healthy? Maybe. Pulkkinen, if he can show even an iota of translating his game to the NHL? Maybe. A top-9 free agent, if we even sign one? Maybe. That's the only way I can get to 9 ahead of him, and that's a lot of dominoes that need to fall into place. I don't see it happening.

The only thing you can hit on for Miller is that he is, possibly, better defensively than a couple of his alternatives. His PK ability doesn't matter, we don't have a good enough PK to keep him around for that. part of the PK's mediocrity is Drew Miller.

That doesn't follow for me. There are many factors that go into a team's PK being good (or bad). Just because it's bad doesn't mean that each individual piece is mediocre, or bad, or doesn't matter. Our PK may not have been great, but I found more fault in the defense and the coaching than I did the forwards. And of the forwards, Glendening and Miller were clearly the best. I won't write off Miller's PK contributions just because the PK as a whole wasn't great, just like I won't write off Glendening's. Those two are a couple of the better PKing forwards I've seen in Detroit in a long time, regardless of how good the overall PK was.

Miller is better defensively than all of those alternatives, and it's not even close from what I've seen. Glendening gets most of the credit for when his line performs well as a shut-down line, as well he should, but Miller has been a significant part of that as well. I don't see any of the listed alternatives being able to fill that role.

I take any of the guys I listed over Miller right now.

Gross I enjoy discussing with you, Winger, you're one of my favs. But I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. One of us is going to be unhappy regarding this topic next season, and I hope it's you

 

[odin1981]

I think Callahans Injuries killed his Detroit carrer, Hope im wrong about it Holland needs to make a trade.

I think if he acted like an adult and stayed off facebook/twitter/whateverthe**** he would have gotten a cup of coffee by now (pre knee injury). Trashing your place of work/ *****ing about your role in public doesn't do you well any where in adult life.

But a bunch of people are on his low skill train. Because it has been damn near a decade since we have had a McCarty, Kocur, or Probert on this team. So generally any young player who plays with a bit of a edge gets fan doomed to overrated levels pretty quickly.

That being said I could be wrong on my early criticism of Lil Bert. But he more so than others drafted before over the years has a element of actual playing ability that the above 3 mentioned in the second paragraph also had.

 

[WesNichols14]

The Grind Line guys... that's pre-salary cap, apples and oranges Winger, you know that

For Jurco, that may very well be true. In fact, I kinda suspect that Jurco will be the most regular 4th-line winger, after Miller.

I'm not sure about that. He has a lot of tools and is still only 22. He may be a 3-4th line tweener at the moment, but he still has a lot of potential to be a top 6 power forward type. and his time as a grinder might help him in the long run. There is no denying he has improved his 2-way game a good deal. next year under a new coach (one he thrived under before) and we could see a steady improvement in the offensive side of the game.

 

[Winger98]

The Grind Line guys... that's pre-salary cap, apples and oranges Winger, you know that

For Jurco, that may very well be true. In fact, I kinda suspect that Jurco will be the most regular 4th-line winger, after Miller.

I don't see it with Helm. I don't see a likely scenario where he is on the 4th-line. He's easily one of our 9 best forwards.

In today's NHL, given the salary cap, I don't see how you can put Helm on the 4th line. He's a guy who obviously can play there and not be out of place, but he brings more to the table than what he would provide on the 4th line. You're losing more than you're gaining by putting him there. It's a net negative imo. You may as well trade him at that point.

Hank, Dats, Nyquist, Tatar, Abdelkader, Sheahan.... who else is ahead of him? Franzen, if he can somehow get healthy? Maybe. Pulkkinen, if he can show even an iota of translating his game to the NHL? Maybe. A top-9 free agent, if we even sign one? Maybe. That's the only way I can get to 9 ahead of him, and that's a lot of dominoes that need to fall into place. I don't see it happening.

That doesn't follow for me. There are many factors that go into a team's PK being good (or bad). Just because it's bad doesn't mean that each individual piece is mediocre, or bad, or doesn't matter. Our PK may not have been great, but I found more fault in the defense and the coaching than I did the forwards. And of the forwards, Glendening and Miller were clearly the best. I won't write off Miller's PK contributions just because the PK as a whole wasn't great, just like I won't write off Glendening's. Those two are a couple of the better PKing forwards I've seen in Detroit in a long time, regardless of how good the overall PK was.

Miller is better defensively than all of those alternatives, and it's not even close from what I've seen. Glendening gets most of the credit for when his line performs well as a shut-down line, as well he should, but Miller has been a significant part of that as well. I don't see any of the listed alternatives being able to fill that role.

Gross I enjoy discussing with you, Winger, you're one of my favs. But I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. One of us is going to be unhappy regarding this topic next season, and I hope it's you

Probably, yeah. You can admit I'm right later, though.

With the PK, I think it boils down to our goalie and the players are secondary unless you're running some serious skill out there - such as when Z&D routinely killed penalties, or back in the day when we could run Fedorov and Yzerman out there. I don't think we have the horses to say any of the skaters make or break our PK. We need Howard or Mrazek to do it.

With the top9, yeah, I put Pulkkinen there, and I have room for Larkin and Mantha if they come to camp and earn it. I'd put Jurco into the argument, too, if for no other reason to see if he could take a spot and run with it this year. His shooting percentage can't be south of 5% every year, can it? Helm is a guy I'd have in the top9 if there's room, but he's also one of the guys I bump down if one of the kids comes to camp is ready.

I hate how we've allowed waiver eligibility and too many mediocre vets signed to poor/mediocre contracts dictate our decisions in camp every year.

 

[jaster]

I'm not sure about that. He has a lot of tools and is still only 22. He may be a 3-4th line tweener at the moment, but he still has a lot of potential to be a top 6 power forward type. and his time as a grinder might help him in the long run. There is no denying he has improved his 2-way game a good deal. next year under a new coach (one he thrived under before) and we could see a steady improvement in the offensive side of the game.

Agree on pretty much all accounts. I still see him spending a significant amount of time on the 4th line this season though, both because he hasn't yet shown he should be in a scoring role, and also because of the glut of top-9 type forwards we have on the roster.

My long-term expectations for Jurco certainly don't have him remaining on the 4th line.