TSN Radio: 1290 am - Part VII

[Mortimer Snerd]

Afaic, if it isn’t specifically related to a Winnipeg team, and even at that, legitimately “big”, then it shouldn’t get the “breaking news” designation.

I think it is the "big" part that matters. If Sidney Crosby suddenly took a LOA to consider his hockey future it would rate a "breaking news" label. Dan Girardi retiring rates a "and in other NHL news" label.

 

[Trinity]

Murat Ates thought Poolman played well.

Poolman has been good this preseason.

 

[lomiller1]

There is nothing wrong with the media relying on the "analytics community". Not every consumer of statistical information needs to be a statistician. Certainly the media need to have a grasp of fundamental concepts like statistical uncertainty but they don't need to be able to calculate it for themselves. The statisticians who are doing the analysis and calculating a player's GAR should be providing precision and uncertainty information along with their results. Blame them for the lack of it. Blame the media for not reporting it when it is provided, not when it isn't.

Do you have any idea how quickly people would tune out when you start to "see more critique of methods and results, referencing well-researched articles"? True, there are some, like yourself, who are interested in that. That's why TSN employs Travis Yost. There is a place for that but I don't think it is in radio prime time.

If you are going to appeal to what the analytics community is saying you need to have functional literacy in the language they are speaking. Without this, you’ll struggled to separate the analytics from the people spouting BS and calling it analytics.

Sports media in general is often not great in this regard because a big part of their job is to come up with a narrative, a story for the game or season. This leaves them prone to looking for numbers to support the story they are trying to tell, and analytics doesn’t work that way.

 

[Whileee]

There is nothing wrong with the media relying on the "analytics community". Not every consumer of statistical information needs to be a statistician. Certainly the media need to have a grasp of fundamental concepts like statistical uncertainty but they don't need to be able to calculate it for themselves. The statisticians who are doing the analysis and calculating a player's GAR should be providing precision and uncertainty information along with their results. Blame them for the lack of it. Blame the media for not reporting it when it is provided, not when it isn't.

Do you have any idea how quickly people would tune out when you start to "see more critique of methods and results, referencing well-researched articles"? True, there are some, like yourself, who are interested in that. That's why TSN employs Travis Yost. There is a place for that but I don't think it is in radio prime time.

Good points. Still, I think that having uninformed media folks just repeating some things that they read from the "analytics community" on social media as though it is now some sacrosanct evidence does a disservice to the potential value of the emergence of statistical analysis in hockey.

What I would like to see a lot more is informed media members interviewing articulate statistical analysts, instead of trying to pretend that they really understand it well. It would be much more interesting than endless interviews with team play-by-play announcers or beat reporters. Maybe the deficit is having good journalists who have enough knowledge to interview statisticians, and having statisticians who can effectively communicate important concepts and results, while being circumspect about the limitations of the analyses.

 

[SensibleGuy]

I think it is the "big" part that matters. If Sidney Crosby suddenly took a LOA to consider his hockey future it would rate a "breaking news" label. Dan Girardi retiring rates a "and in other NHL news" label.

meh. Doesn't shake my world if a player from another team takes a LOA. Even Crosby. I mean if a guy died or something sure...

 

[Whileee]

If you are going to appeal to what the analytics community is saying you need to have functional literacy in the language they are speaking. Without this, you’ll struggled to separate the analytics from the people spouting BS and calling it analytics.

Sports media in general is often not great in this regard because a big part of their job is to come up with a narrative, a story for the game or season. This leaves them prone to looking for numbers to support the story they are trying to tell, and analytics doesn’t work that way.

Bang on.

Why did the Leafs and their gold-plated analytics team think Cody Ceci and Tyson Barrie were good bets to shore up their defense? Are they looking at other metrics than those that are more readily available publicly, or are they ignoring the underlying shot metrics?

Everyone loves to bash a player like Chiarot because it's fashionable, but I'm waiting for someone to bash Drew Doughty for his metrics last season, or OEL (hint: Doughty had a bad season, after a number of good seasons).

Everyone is all over Little for his terrible value contract, but where was the outrage over $7.8M for Kuznetsov (notwithstanding his other issues)?

This is an example of cherry picking data to make a point. But it also shows that there are subtleties in the statistical metrics and methods that require a more systematic approach to presenting and discussing them.

I think that media types need to do a better job of letting statisticians explain things, which means we need more journalists that understand enough about the statistical approaches to know that they can't just throw them out there without more considered discussion.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

If you are going to appeal to what the analytics community is saying you need to have functional literacy in the language they are speaking. Without this, you’ll struggled to separate the analytics from the people spouting BS and calling it analytics.

Sports media in general is often not great in this regard because a big part of their job is to come up with a narrative, a story for the game or season. This leaves them prone to looking for numbers to support the story they are trying to tell, and analytics doesn’t work that way.

So analytics is useful only to mathematicians? Or by functional literacy in the language do you mean something much less than that?

I have zero training in statistics, but I can appreciate statistical analysis. I am aware of at least the most common pitfalls. I can usually follow the logic and recognize the BS. But as soon as Whileee and Garrett get into a discussion of the relative merits and weaknesses of various methodologies my eyes glaze over and I move on the something else. I don't speak the language. I also can't draw but I can appreciate art. I can't play an instrument but I love good music.

 

[Whileee]

So analytics is useful only to mathematicians? Or by functional literacy in the language do you mean something much less than that?

I have zero training in statistics, but I can appreciate statistical analysis. I am aware of at least the most common pitfalls. I can usually follow the logic and recognize the BS. But as soon as Whileee and Garrett get into a discussion of the relative merits and weaknesses of various methodologies my eyes glaze over and I move on the something else. I don't speak the language. I also can't draw but I can appreciate art. I can't play an instrument but I love good music.

To be clear, Garret is much more familiar with the statistical methods and models applied to hockey data than I am. My questions are usually more generic, based on my general understanding of research and statistical methods, along with whatever I think I understand about hockey. It's the type of discussion that I have with other researchers in other fields, where it is common practice to challenge and debate assumptions and methods. More of that is good, though I know it is of limited interest to most hockey fans.

 

[broinwhyteridge]

I remember once when Toth said it was Tuesday and it actually was Tuesday, so he does know some stuff.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[broinwhyteridge]

Did you guys hear that the My Pillow guy has a book? Yeah he has a book!

Holy smokes I wonder if I can get a copy with some pillows to go along with it.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Good points. Still, I think that having uninformed media folks just repeating some things that they read from the "analytics community" on social media as though it is now some sacrosanct evidence does a disservice to the potential value of the emergence of statistical analysis in hockey.

What I would like to see a lot more is informed media members interviewing articulate statistical analysts, instead of trying to pretend that they really understand it well. It would be much more interesting than endless interviews with team play-by-play announcers or beat reporters. Maybe the deficit is having good journalists who have enough knowledge to interview statisticians, and having statisticians who can effectively communicate important concepts and results, while being circumspect about the limitations of the analyses.

I agree that they need to be discriminating in their use of analytics. If they just blindly accept and repeat everything they see or hear they are not doing their jobs. They don't need to become experts. Just learn enough to grasp the big concepts.

I would certainly rather listen to an interview with Garrett than with Munz. If they interview Beyak, ask him about some of the finer points of doing pbp, not of actually playing hockey.

Some media people have educated themselves to a basic level and some just spew whatever supports their POV. But that is something we see everywhere. Some people are good at their jobs and some just get by. Then there are some of the ones on 1290 who really should be doing something else for a living. That is some, not all.

I found the ignorant or just poorly thought out content too frustrating to listen to and stopped going there quite a while ago so I avoid criticizing the individuals. I don't know them well enough.

I just drop in here once in a while for entertainment.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

meh. Doesn't shake my world if a player from another team takes a LOA. Even Crosby. I mean if a guy died or something sure...

Well that's you. I certainly wouldn't complain if a sports radio station called the retirement of the top player of the last decade "breaking news". But Dan Girardi retiring? Dan who? That's a bit of overuse of the term, absolutely.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

To be clear, Garret is much more familiar with the statistical methods and models applied to hockey data than I am. My questions are usually more generic, based on my general understanding of research and statistical methods, along with whatever I think I understand about hockey. It's the type of discussion that I have with other researchers in other fields, where it is common practice to challenge and debate assumptions and methods. More of that is good, though I know it is of limited interest to most hockey fans.

Yeah, I understand that. I appreciate the stats that you post here and the questioning of some of them as well. I usually follow those conversations for a little while and then the language leaves me behind. I'm interested in ideas like Corsi expanding the size of the dataset to get better repeatability and predictability out of the data. I'm interested in finding different angles to look at the data from to extract more meaning from it, like with and without you, for example. Those broader concepts, I can understand. The math that is used might have interested me 60 years ago but I have lived this long without learning math and am not about to start now.

No problem if others want to get into that here. I just move on when it gets over my head, occasionally ask questions so that I can better understand some of those bigger concepts.

 

[SensibleGuy]

AWWWWWWWWW DAMN!!!!!!! Ty from labroquerie was trying to unleash some third-rate clone-take on us but his connection was bad and they had to cut him off! Darnit! Darnit darnit darnit!!

ah good he called back with a better connection. lol


actually wasn't a bad call for once. He made some sense...

 

[Trinity]

What do you guys think of the TSN 1290 Bomber game day coverage with Darrin Bauming Chris Walby and Troy Westwood?

 

[TS Quint]

What do you guys think of the TSN 1290 Bomber game day coverage with Darrin Bauming Chris Walby and Troy Westwood?

I like it.

 

[Al Camino]

What do you guys think of the TSN 1290 Bomber game day coverage with Darrin Bauming Chris Walby and Troy Westwood?

I like it. They provide a little more balance than CJOB. Which is opposite of their Jets coverage. Funny how that works!

 

[Trinity]

I like it. They provide a little more balance than CJOB. Which is opposite of their Jets coverage. Funny how that works!

Ya Bob Irving is a total Bomber homer.

 

[Trinity]

So this morning Toth was arguing that Appleton and Borque are battling for one roster spot on the Jets opening day lineup. Then after a few seconds of discussion between Westwood and Rewicki, he argues that they'll both be on the opening game roster.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

So this morning Toth was arguing that Appleton and Borque are battling for one roster spot on the Jets opening day lineup. Then after a few seconds of discussion between Westwood and Rewicki, he argues that they'll both be on the opening game roster.

I think the most likely outcome is neither, but this might just be wishful thinking.

 

[Trinity]

I think the most likely outcome is neither, but this might just be wishful thinking.

I think Appleton is a lock to be on the opening day roster.

 

[Jets 31]

I think Appleton is a lock to be on the opening day roster.

I think he definitely has past Vaseline in the depth chart .

 

[Trinity]

I think he definitely has past Vaseline in the depth chart .

Agreed. I think Vesa starts the season with the Moose.

 

[Whileee]

I think Appleton is a lock to be on the opening day roster.

Agree, and I think he deserves it. His skating has improved so much, and he's a smart player with a bit of skill. He reminds me a bit of Copp in terms of his versatility and approach.

 

[DRW204]

Holy shit how much can troy and Toth go back and forth on the definition of disarray