GDT: #12: FLYERS at Devils, Friday, Nov. 1, 2019, 7:00 pm ET

[Philly Fanatik]

He just does what he wants out there.



Makes no sense for them. Maybe Ghost for Ehlers. Maybe Voracek to Carolina or Dallas

Just trying to get them off our roster...
I know,I know... the Jets need a right handed defenseman and Voracek's time has come and gone!
Just wishbooking!

 

[Illini Flyer]

This is what happens when you rely on an aging core.

We knew this team was going to start slow, it's not only AV's MO, it's driven by necessity, the future of this team hasn't even arrived yet for the most part, and it's more important to avoid rushing prospects than a few extra points in the first half - we're not Arizona, where making the playoffs would be a big event. Flyers want to build a team that can compete for the Cup.

We saw Fletcher move out a bunch of players last year, we'll see the same by next summer.
A more interesting question is which favorite veteran(s) will play his way out of this team's future?

This team will be fun to watch by spring, AV will have his schemes installed, Patrick and Laughton will return, and most likely, Frost, Rubtsov and Myers will be starting, possibly with some other LHV prospects.

Idk, I think Scott would be ok with just making the playoffs for the $$$ and the illusion of being a real contender.

Fletcher moved out slop and replaced it with slop.

 

[deadhead]

Idk, I think Scott would be ok with just making the playoffs for the $$$ and the illusion of being a real contender.

Fletcher moved out slop and replaced it with slop.

We made the playoffs 3 of the last six seasons, did that make the fan base happy?

 

[Tripod]

At Es, our Dmen:

Sanheim 13 for, 13 against
Provy 11 for, 12 against
Nisky 10 for, 9 against
Ghost 5 for, 6 against

Those are all at about even. How about our other 2 Dmen?

Hagg 3 for, 6 against
Braun 8 for, 16 against

So while we have 4 Dmen who are playing teams even at ES...we clearly have 2 Dmen who are getting outproduced 2-1 in Hagg and Braun.

Yet all the bitching/trade shit is about Ghost and Sanheim.

 

[Rich Nixon]

At Es, our Dmen:

Sanheim 13 for, 13 against
Provy 11 for, 12 against
Nisky 10 for, 9 against
Ghost 5 for, 6 against

Those are all at about even. How about our other 2 Dmen?

Hagg 3 for, 6 against
Braun 8 for, 16 against

So while we have 4 Dmen who are playing teams even at ES...we clearly have 2 Dmen who are getting outproduced 2-1 in Hagg and Braun.

Yet all the *****ing/trade **** is about Ghost and Sanheim.

You do realize you basically just posted their +/- stats in way more words, right?

 

[Tripod]

You do realize you basically just posted their +/- stats in way more words, right?

It was to show how many goals for and against could be shown. I know how +/- is derived...lol.

 

[Lindberg]

This is what happens when you rely on an aging core.

I'd like to know who the aging core is at this point.

It's literally Jake and Giroux. Everyone else is gone.

(JVR isn't part of the previous core)

 

[Rich Nixon]

It was to show how many goals for and against could be shown. I know how +/- is derived...lol.

I know, but at the end of the day, we all roll our eyes at +/-, and that's what you just posted. The only deviations from special teams GA are Provorov (11 for/12 against, but an even +/-) and Niskanen (a +2 despite 10 for/9 against).

So, if we agree that +/- is a silly stat, I just thought it was funny to see someone go through great pains to use it. I also think +/- is a silly stat, I don't loathe it the way some do (it says exactly what it says) but I know better than coming through with YEAH BUT SHAYNE GOSTISBEHERE WAS LAST ON THE TEAM IN +/- LAST YEAR! Which is true, but not a good way to assess players. Or some players, I suppose.

 

[Illini Flyer]

We made the playoffs 3 of the last six seasons, did that make the fan base happy?

Temporarily, sure. I don't think anyone was pissed off about making the playoffs in the moment. But I also do not know what that has to do with Dave Scott being happy or Fletcher replacing slop with other, different slop.

 

[Lindberg]

Why would making the playoffs make this fan base happy? Almost half the league makes the playoffs.

 

[Tripod]

I know, but at the end of the day, we all roll our eyes at +/-, and that's what you just posted. The only deviations from special teams GA are Provorov (11 for 12, against but an even +/-) and Niskanen (a +2 despite 10 for and 9 against).

So, if we agree that +/- is a silly stat, I just thought it was funny to see someone go through great pains to use it. I think +/- is a silly stay, I don't loathe it the way some do (it says exactly what it says) but I know better than coming through with YEAH BUT SHAYNE GOSTISBEHERE WAS LAST ON THE TEAM IN +/- LAST YEAR! Which is true, but not a good way to assess players. Or some players, I suppose.

Again...it was to shown the for and against.

It shows that Ghost for example, is more low event on offense AND defense...whereas Provy has more happening at both ends.

It shows that Brauns -6 isn't just from being on the ice for 6 goals against...it's 16 against. As a teacher would say, I was showing the "work".

Also...it was to show the 2-1 ratio for Hagg and Braun. Being -3 when it's 3-6 is different than being -3 when it's 15-18 for example.

Where is the outrage about Braun being so awful from the noted Ghost haters? Or the Sanheim haters?

 

[deadhead]

No one has been aggressively "fluffing" Braun the way some have with Ghost and Sanheim the last few years.
You can only be told that Ghost is a great player so many times before you ask where's the beef?

We'll find out what AV thinks of some HF Board favorites in a few months.
Until then, just hang on for the ride.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Again...it was to shown the for and against.

It shows that Ghost for example, is more low event on offense AND defense...whereas Provy has more happening at both ends.

It shows that Brauns -6 isn't just from being on the ice for 6 goals against...it's 16 against. As a teacher would say, I was showing the "work".

Where is the outrage about Braun being so awful from the noted Ghost haters? Or the Sanheim haters?

Right, why does there have to be outrage? Braun's been bad. He's a clean -8, btw, both in the +/- stat and raw all-situations goals for and against.

I think the fact that our high-end offensive defenseman has only been on the ice for 6 total goals against is ...fine. The fact that the same high-end defenseman has only been on the ice for 5 goals for, ES or PP, isn't exactly a ringing endorsement, though. Him being "low-event" on offense is a problem. Certainly, his partner has been no help, but he's not exactly thrashing against the anchor chain here.

And then if you turn it around, Hagg, who absolutely sucks, has also only been out there for the same 6 goals against. That's also "low event on defense." But that doesn't somehow make Hagg look good, now does it?

So do you see how irrelevant I think this conversation is to the other one you were trying to tie it to? If being out there for the fewest GA doesn't somehow protect a bad player, how does it then protect a good player who seems to be chronically underperforming at the thing he ostensibly does well?

 

[Tripod]

No one has been aggressively "fluffing" Braun the way some have with Ghost and Sanheim the last few years.
You can only be told that Ghost is a great player so many times before you ask where's the beef?

We'll find out what AV thinks of some HF Board favorites in a few months.
Until then, just hang on for the ride.

Exhibit A of what I was talking about.

Can't rip Braun, but does so for Ghsot and Sanheim. Yet Ghost was 10th in Norris voting 1.5 years ago and Sanheim was top 10 in ES scoring once Hak was fired...and still leads our D in ES scoring this year.

 

[flyersnorth]

Who knew having patrick and laughton out would make our lineups so out of order.

I mean, that's the 3C and 4C. Pretty significant for any team.

 

[Tripod]

Right, why does there have to be outrage? Braun's been bad. He's a clean -8, btw, both in the +/- stat and raw all-situations goals for and against.

I think the fact that our high-end offensive defenseman has only been on the ice for 6 total goals against is ...fine. The fact that the same high-end defenseman has only been on the ice for 5 goals for, ES or PP, isn't exactly a ringing endorsement, though. Him being "low-event" on offense is a problem. Certainly, his partner has been no help, but he's not exactly thrashing against the anchor chain here.

And then if you turn it around, Hagg, who absolutely sucks, has also only been out there for the same 6 goals against. That's also "low event on defense." But that doesn't somehow make Hagg look good, now does it?

So do you see how irrelevant I think this conversation is to the other one you were trying to tie it to? If being out there for the fewest GA doesn't somehow protect a bad player, how does it then protect a good player who seems to be chronically underperforming at the thing they ostensibly do well?

What are Ghosts most common linemates? Because to pin poor production on him at ES all while having the 4th line as guys he is supposed to help get production from, matters. And a black hole as his D partner.

The PP is completely different but he doesn't dictate how the PP is set up either so it's not optimal there either. Ghost has 2 PP points...G has 3, Jake has 3, JVR has 1. It's not like Ghost is way off from the rest that are being used improperly.

 

[deadhead]

Exhibit A of what I was talking about.

Can't rip Braun, but does so for Ghsot and Sanheim. Yet Ghost was 10th in Norris voting 1.5 years ago and Sanheim was top 10 in ES scoring once Hak was fired...and still leads our D in ES scoring this year.

Ghost of 2017-18 is ancient history, can you really say you've seen the same player since that season?
He hasn't been awful, he just hasn't been a top 4 caliber D-man either? And certainly not a core player.

Sanheim is a work in progress, he's been inconsistent since his rookie season, now he's in his 3rd NHL season.

Braun is a one year patch, a different set of expectations.

 

[Rich Nixon]

What are Ghosts most common linemates? Because to pin poor production on him at ES all while having the 4th line as guys he is supposed to help get production from, matters. And a black hole as his D partner.

The PP is completely different but he doesn't dictate how the PP is set up either so it's not optimal there either. Ghost has 2 PP points...G has 3, Jake has 3, JVR has 1. It's not like Ghost is way off from the rest that are being used improperly.

Actually do you have a good tool for on-ice player combinations? I need one.

But the gist of this is the same as any time someone suggests that maybe Ghost's struggles might be his own: Ghost gets credit for fewest goals against, Hagg doesn't, and all of Ghost's offensive struggles are due to his linemates. Team PP struggles are entirely positioning and nothing to do with player execution, Ghost takes no blame for three dozen wide shots or weak passes or shinpad bombs, and now let's talk about how bad Braun is.

Sometimes criticism is fair. Of course Ghost has caught a rough draw this year, but it's becoming more apparent to me that he isn't a guy who makes his own luck. A good player maybe, not a great one.

Move him up the lineup and give him a better chance to succeed, and if that fails, it fails, move on.

 

[Tripod]

Ghost of 2017-18 is ancient history, can you really say you've seen the same player since that season?
He hasn't been awful, he just hasn't been a top 4 caliber D-man either? And certainly not a core player.

Sanheim is a work in progress, he's been inconsistent since his rookie season, now he's in his 3rd NHL season.

Braun is a one year patch, a different set of expectations.

Has Ghost been used in a position to succeed this year? No. Maybe he should play with offensive players at ES. Maybe that would get the best out of him.

Last year once Hak was fired(Dec onward), Ghost was 30th in the NHL in ES scoring and only -2. Is that so bad? That's not a top 4 Dman?

All you are doing is proving my point on being biased toward Ghost and pretending to be impartial. And I am not saying he will get back to that great season he had. But under Gordon, he still paced for 30 ES points. Not top 4???

The PP is an entire different convo because they have f***ed with a setup that has worked for years and years and keep going back to one that hasn't for almost a year now.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Actually do you have a good tool for on-ice player combinations? I need one.

But the gist of this is the same as any time someone suggests that maybe Ghost's struggles might be his own: Ghost gets credit for fewest goals against, Hagg doesn't, and all of Ghost's offensive struggles are due to his linemates. Team PP struggles are entirely positioning and nothing to do with player execution, Ghost takes no blame for three dozen wide shots or shinpad bombs, and now let's talk about how bad Braun is.

Sometimes criticism is fair. Of course Ghost has caught a rough draw this year, but it's becoming more apparent to me and he isn’t a guy that makes his own luck. A good player maybe, not a great one.

Move him up the lineup and give him a better chance to succeed, and if that fails...

Welcome to problem #1 of the Philadelphia Flyers.

Too proud to truly rebuild and the harvest is less than ideal. Chasing that mystical first round exit.

 

[Peacekeeper]

Why would making the playoffs make this fan base happy? Almost half the league makes the playoffs.

More than half of teams make the playoffs..

16/31

 

[FlyerNutter]

The funny thing, in a sick way to me is the hate that Giroux and Jake sometimes get.

Warranted or not, the point I’m trying to make is imagine for a second where this team would be if hypothetically both guys weren’t here, or a true decline begins. Imagine this team without those players

This organization is closer to being the Minnesota Wild than having built something similar to the consistent threat that we have seen from clubs like Chicago, Pittsburgh, Boston, Nashville and Tampa.

The goal was simply to make it back to the dance, and not care how far you got.

Disgusted at this franchise. Keep filtering in those mid first round picks, hoping you do something worth a damn, and being shocked as to why mediocrity is the identity.

I’ve come to a conclusion, that may be insane haha. More so I think though, it truly is appealing. We will never get it, but I so badly desire something scorched earth. For one god damn time. You’ve got youngsters you can keep for a contention window, but bottom this shit out. Whatever contention window this team believes it has. Is a mirage. The goal should be to make a cup contender. There isn’t nearly enough here, and Frost/York/Myers won’t be enough.

Hope to hell, I am wrong - but I see nothing but mediocrity coming ahead. Trotting along on this road, wondering why the results are what they are.

 

[hatcher]

Has Ghost been used in a position to succeed this year? No. Maybe he should play with offensive players at ES. Maybe that would get the best out of him.

Last year once Hak was fired(Dec onward), Ghost was 30th in the NHL in ES scoring and only -2. Is that so bad? That's not a top 4 Dman?

All you are doing is proving my point on being biased toward Ghost and pretending to be impartial. And I am not saying he will get back to that great season he had. But under Gordon, he still paced for 30 ES points. Not top 4???

The PP is an entire different convo because they have ****ed with a setup that has worked for years and years and keep going back to one that hasn't for almost a year now.

Ghost and Sanheim are huge problems in the dzone. Braun is a minus on his own for a couple of goals but sanheim has killed him. Ghost should be out soon hopefully for faster puck movers. AV said it today they arent what they thought.

 

[deadhead]

Has Ghost been used in a position to succeed this year? No. Maybe he should play with offensive players at ES. Maybe that would get the best out of him.

Last year once Hak was fired(Dec onward), Ghost was 30th in the NHL in ES scoring and only -2. Is that so bad? That's not a top 4 Dman?

All you are doing is proving my point on being biased toward Ghost and pretending to be impartial. And I am not saying he will get back to that great season he had. But under Gordon, he still paced for 30 ES points. Not top 4???

The PP is an entire different convo because they have ****ed with a setup that has worked for years and years and keep going back to one that hasn't for almost a year now.

Ghost was not that good last year after Hak was fired:
CF 50.56%, xGF 49.41, SCF/CA 307/301, HDCF/CA 115/112
Not bad, but certainly nothing that suggests top defenseman.
Part of his problem was being paired with Myers, but if he can't elevate the game of a talented rookie, again, he's nothing special.

It's a matter of perspective, Ghost is still a solid defenseman, Sanheim is a promising young defenseman, but enough with excuses, at some point either a player steps up or they are what they are.

 

[deadhead]

Hope to hell, I am wrong.

You're wrong, the Hextall rebuild is starting to bear fruit, people are just impatient, fortunately, that hasn't affected AV or Fletcher yet.
Remember when the Flyers gave up on Bob? How did that work out?
Or Justin Williams and Patrick Sharp to win now?

Look at the roster four years ago, now project the roster four months from now. Doesn't that make you feel better?
It's a work in progress this year, we've seen flashes, we've also seen setbacks.
But it's not like Frost is 19 in the CHL anymore, Rubtsov is actually healthy, and so on.
Players that were 3-4 years away are 1-2 months (Frost, Rubtsov, Myers) or 1-2 years at most (Brink, York, Zamula) away.