Prospect Info: #110 LD Daniil Orlov, Sakhalinskiye MHL

[Triumph]

I don’t believe NHL and KHL can officially interact, and a payment would definitely be official.

You’d have to find a way to pay the KHL club in a way that isn’t traceable back to you and then have the KHL club release the player with no official compensation

I don't think this is true. Shakir Mukhamadullin played his ELC slide year in the KHL and then played his first season under his NHL contract as a KHLer. It may be the case that NHL teams cannot pay KHL teams for transferring players, or pay for KHL contracts to be terminated, but it feels like there's a ton of gray area when it comes to these things (e.g. I thought Michkov had 2 more years in the KHL after his D+1, but he didn't)

 

[Devils731]

I don't think this is true. Shakir Mukhamadullin played his ELC slide year in the KHL and then played his first season under his NHL contract as a KHLer. It may be the case that NHL teams cannot pay KHL teams for transferring players, or pay for KHL contracts to be terminated, but it feels like there's a ton of gray area when it comes to these things (e.g. I thought Michkov had 2 more years in the KHL after his D+1, but he didn't)

Just focusing on contracts and rights.

The NHL and KHL do seem free to lend their own contracted players to the other leagues but there is no way for an NHL team to directly pay a KHL team for a benefit.

Unsigned NHL prospects that play in the KHL even get interacted with differently by their NHL team compared to other leagues, again due to lack of transfer agreement and official rules.

With no official framework there is only what the NHL allows their teams to do and what the KHL allows their teams to do and sort of a Cold War about players rights. The NHL won’t allow teams to pay a KHL club to buy out a contract so there isn’t a way to do it.

 

[vorky]

Not with an NHL team, there is no transfer agreement so there is no mechanism for an NHL team to do that.

You do not need any transfer agreement for that. All you need is an agreement between KHL & NHL club on transfer fee.

So called NHL transfer agreement with European leagues or IIHF has nothing to do with a transfer agreement stricto sensu.

 

[Devils731]

You do not need any transfer agreement for that. All you need is an agreement between KHL & NHL club on transfer fee.

So called NHL transfer agreement with European leagues or IIHF has nothing to do with a transfer agreement stricto sensu.

And the NHL sent out a memorandum to the clubs that says they can’t interact with KHL clubs with direct payments.

That’s why there used to be direct payments and now there aren’t. Without a transfer agreement, the NHL dictates to its clubs on how they should act and will enforce the rules however they see fit.

Edit: Sorry it was the suspension of the MoU that caused the payments to stop.

NHL suspends agreement with Russia-based KHL

The NHL has suspended its dealings with the Russia-based KHL. The NHL told its teams to cease contact with KHL counterparts and Russia-based agents as part of the suspension of the memorandum of understanding between the leagues.

apnews.com

“The NHL told its teams to cease contact with KHL counterparts and Russia-based agents as part of the suspension of the memorandum of understanding between the leagues. They can continue to communicate with North American agents certified by the NHL Players’ Association but may have more difficulty completing agreements.”

 

[vorky]

And the NHL sent out a memorandum to the clubs that says they can’t interact with KHL clubs with direct payments.

That’s why there used to be direct payments and now there aren’t. Without a transfer agreement, the NHL dictates to its clubs on how they should act and will enforce the rules however they see fit.

Edit: Sorry it was the suspension of the MoU that caused the payments to stop.

NHL suspends agreement with Russia-based KHL

The NHL has suspended its dealings with the Russia-based KHL. The NHL told its teams to cease contact with KHL counterparts and Russia-based agents as part of the suspension of the memorandum of understanding between the leagues.

apnews.com

“The NHL told its teams to cease contact with KHL counterparts and Russia-based agents as part of the suspension of the memorandum of understanding between the leagues. They can continue to communicate with North American agents certified by the NHL Players’ Association but may have more difficulty completing agreements.”

As I said above. Yeah, NHL-IIHF TA or KHL-NHL MoU regulate the movement of players, but have nothing to do with a transfer agreement stricto sensu.

 

[Devils731]

As I said above. Yeah, NHL-IIHF TA or KHL-NHL MoU regulate the movement of players, but have nothing to do with a transfer agreement stricto sensu.

I’m failing to see your point, MoU and transfer agreements are unrelated but both are relevant to the discussion and nobody is saying they’re the same thing.

If the NHL had a transfer agreement like they have with other leagues then a direct payment could be made for a player; this was the original discussion and why pointing out there is no transfer agreement is needed.

The NHL did have an MoU and currently does not, neither of these allowed direct payments to KHL teams and is important to bring up because this is how the NHL-KHL operate.

You said “you don’t need a transfer agreement to make a direct payment” but you certainly do if you’re an NHL club. Try to do that right now and see what happens. A transfer agreement is the mechanism a NHL team needs to do a direct payment.

—————-

Unless this is a philosophical discussion around the word “can’t” in which case, sure, an NHL team could just send over a huge briefcase of money and deal with the consequences.

 

[Guadana]

Just focusing on contracts and rights.

The NHL and KHL do seem free to lend their own contracted players to the other leagues but there is no way for an NHL team to directly pay a KHL team for a benefit.

Unsigned NHL prospects that play in the KHL even get interacted with differently by their NHL team compared to other leagues, again due to lack of transfer agreement and official rules.

With no official framework there is only what the NHL allows their teams to do and what the KHL allows their teams to do and sort of a Cold War about players rights. The NHL won’t allow teams to pay a KHL club to buy out a contract so there isn’t a way to do it.

No agreement between NHL and KHL meens NHL teams and KHL teams can make their business without asking leagues. KHL isnt a part of IIHF structure. If they doing something and making deals they cant break any rule because there are no rule in a rule book because without agreement there are no rule book. The world is complex and deals could be done without direct payment.

 

[Devils731]

No agreement between NHL and KHL meens NHL teams and KHL teams can make their business without asking leagues

That’s not true at all. The NHL won’t allow their teams to make a direct payment to a KHL team. NHL teams certainly need to abide by what the NHL league allows.

Yes, if an NHL team goes and drops off secret bags of money off the books in the middle of the night, that can happen but if you’re asking it NHL teams can pay KHL teams to get players out of contracts, then officially they can not.

 

[Guadana]

That’s not true at all. The NHL won’t allow their teams to make a direct payment to a KHL team.

The world is complex and deals could be done without direct payment.

you missed it.

Yes, if an NHL team goes and drops off secret bags of money off the books in the middle of the night, that can happen but if you’re asking it NHL teams can pay KHL teams to get players out of contracts, then officially they can not.

There are a lot of ways to make a business without direct payment in the world and without drops off secret bags of money off the books in the middle of the night. You live in a country of lobbying, charity organisations, monetary funds etc.

 

[Devils731]

I missed it.

But the original question is about direct payments.

I’m still not sure many NHL teams want to risk the punishment that would come from purposefully trying to hide a payment as well. Any NHL teams could purposefully break the rule, but then we could just say the NHL teams could break any rule; like off book endorsement deals.

 

[vorky]

I’m failing to see your point, MoU and transfer agreements are unrelated but both are relevant to the discussion and nobody is saying they’re the same thing.

If the NHL had a transfer agreement like they have with other leagues then a direct payment could be made for a player; this was the original discussion and why pointing out there is no transfer agreement is needed.

The NHL did have an MoU and currently does not, neither of these allowed direct payments to KHL teams and is important to bring up because this is how the NHL-KHL operate.

You said “you don’t need a transfer agreement to make a direct payment” but you certainly do if you’re an NHL club. Try to do that right now and see what happens. A transfer agreement is the mechanism a NHL team needs to do a direct payment.

—————-

Unless this is a philosophical discussion around the word “can’t” in which case, sure, an NHL team could just send over a huge briefcase of money and deal with the consequences.

The point is that what you call a transfer agreement is not a transfer agreement stricto sensu.

 

[Devils731]

The point is that what you call a transfer agreement is not a transfer agreement stricto sensu.

What am I calling a transfer agreement? I wasn’t calling an MoU one, I specifically said they’re different.

 

[Guadana]

But the original question is about direct payments.

I’m still not sure many NHL teams want to risk the punishment that would come from purposefully trying to hide a payment as well. Any NHL teams could purposefully break the rule, but then we could just say the NHL teams could break any rule; like off book endorsement deals.

If there are no rule, there are no break. They cant make a direct payment. Thats a rule. Other than that not direct payment is not a direct payment. Conducting transactions with a third party does not fall under this description. And this is just a cursory consideration of the situation of all opportunities.

 

[Devils731]

If there are no rule, there are no break. They cant make a direct payment. Thats a rule. Other than that not direct payment is not a direct payment. Conducting transactions with a third party does not fall under this description. And this is just a cursory consideration of the situation of all opportunities.

Oh come on, so we hang our hat on

“Direct payments are against the rules but if I give some charity money and then have the charity give the money to the KHL, it’s fine”

The NHL would still consider your 3rd party blind as a direct payment. The NHL may choose to look the other way if they can but if it was publicly known, they would punish the team.

Literally anything would be acceptable then under this premise. “Josh Harris bought a condo from the KHL owner for way over martket price and magically the players contract was cancelled”. Could that happen? Yes. Would the Devils be punished if it came to light? Yes.

 

[Guadana]

Oh come on, so we hang our hat on

“Direct payments are against the rules but if I give some charity money and then have the charity give the money to the KHL, it’s fine”

The NHL would still consider your 3rd party blind as a direct payment. The NHL may choose to look the other way if they can but if it was publicly known, they would punish the team.

Literally anything would be acceptable then under this premise. “Josh Harris bought a condo from the KHL owner for way over martket price and magically the players contract was cancelled”. Could that happen? Yes. Would the Devils be punished if it came to light? Yes.

Okay. Use 4th side. Buy some goods. Sell some goods. Use the money in infrastructure projects. Or in organizations of mass events. And then trace and prove this distribution through the third arm. Use imagination. People are making much more complex things in modern world.

 

[Devils731]

Okay. Use 4th side. Buy some goods. Sell some goods. Use the money in infrastructure projects. Or in organizations of mass events. And then trace and prove this distribution through the third arm. Use imagination. People are making much more complex things in modern world.

Ok, so we agree an NHL team could launder money through 3rd or 4th parties to a KHL team.

But can we also agree that if the NHL caught a team doing this, it would see it as a violation of the spirit of the rules and punish it?

Almost anything becomes “allowed” if we start from the premise that rules can be ignored as long as you’re willing to hide your rule breaking.

 

[Guadana]

But can we also agree that if the NHL caught a team doing this, it would see it as a violation of the spirit of the rules and punish it?

I dont know. The spirit of the rules should stop from what Tampa did with the cap. Sometimes it matters sometimes its not. I cant predict this things.

 

[My3Sons]

I’m failing to see your point, MoU and transfer agreements are unrelated but both are relevant to the discussion and nobody is saying they’re the same thing.

If the NHL had a transfer agreement like they have with other leagues then a direct payment could be made for a player; this was the original discussion and why pointing out there is no transfer agreement is needed.

The NHL did have an MoU and currently does not, neither of these allowed direct payments to KHL teams and is important to bring up because this is how the NHL-KHL operate.

You said “you don’t need a transfer agreement to make a direct payment” but you certainly do if you’re an NHL club. Try to do that right now and see what happens. A transfer agreement is the mechanism a NHL team needs to do a direct payment.

—————-

Unless this is a philosophical discussion around the word “can’t” in which case, sure, an NHL team could just send over a huge briefcase of money and deal with the consequences.

Philosophically the word Kant is often seen as a critique of pure reason.

 

[forceten]

How did Nikishin end his contract early?