03 Lemieux vs 07 Crosby vs 14 Crosby

[WalterLundy]

Comparing Crosby’s two best full seasons to Mario’s age 37 season. Crosby won both of his Harts and Ross awards these seasons at age 19 and 26 respectively.

02-03 Lemieux:
67 GP: 28 G, 63 A, 91 PTS (1.36)

Adjusted to the historical league average of 2.24 EVG, 0.72 PPG and 0.10 SHG:
67 GP: 31 G, 69 A, 100 PTS (1.49)

Finished second in points per game in 2003 to the peak Peter Forsberg season. Got off to an incredible start and at the time of the Alex Kovalev trade had 73 points in 44 games (1.66 PPG). He did this without a prime Jaromír Jagr as it was in 2000-01. The 1.76 ppg he had in 2001 was incredible at age 35 but Jagr was the team leader in points and points per game from December 27 2000 onward for the Lemieux return duration. To be that close to his 2001 level production without Jagr shows how great of a start it was and with virtually the same sample size. This 73 in 44 adjusts up to 80 in 44 games (1.82) which is actually marginally better than what peak 10-11 Crosby’s 66 in 41 goes up to. That being 74 in 41 (1.80). This was all done with a very weak supporting cast as well. Went up against someone stronger than Crosby’s art Ross competition in either year (that being Forsberg).


06-07 Crosby:
79 GP: 36 G, 84 A, 120 PTS (1.52)

Same adjustment method:
79 GP: 38 G, 83 A, 121 P (1.53)

Won the Hart and won the Ross. Also had a great start with 82 points in his first 47 games (1.74). When adjusted that becomes 83 in 47 (1.77).


13-14 Crosby
80 GP: 36 G, 68 A, 104 PTS (1.30)

Adjusted:
80 GP: 41 G, 79 A, 120 P (1.50)

Again won the Hart and the Ross. Had a very good start again with 67 points in 46 games (1.46) and when adjusted is 77 in 46 (1.67). This has the “weakest” start of the three but this Ross win he was dominant albeit against a pretty weak field.


I obviously leave it up to you the voters on this as you can apply more context and recall what it was like when watching. I expect that one of Crosby’s years will win. My goal primarily was to show how close old man Lemieux is to the best Crosby seasons statistically and in a neutral environment. There is obviously a lot more to it than just the stats but this was still interesting to think about.

Click to read more...

 

[DitchMarner]

There's no data in the OP to support this notion, but I assume 2014 Crosby was a better even strength player than 2003 Lemieux and 2007 Crosby. Crosby was dominant on the PP in 2007, to an extent that we haven't really seen since. Lemieux was always a PP killer. Obviously he was slower and older than in his prime and near the end of his career by then.

 

[Toby91ca]

Not sure why we are comparing Crosby's best full seasons to a partial season for Lemieux. Personally, I think 2010-11 was Crosby at his best....but only half a season. He still led his team in scoring by 16pts even though he missed half the year.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

I'd go with Mario due to being able to accomplish that with an inferior support cast.

I remember he turned Morozov into a PPG player and turned Dick Tarnstrom into one of the highest scoring Dmen that year (till his injury).

Mario didn't play back to back games.

He was the leader in scoring for more than half the year despite not playing in back to back games, or 3 in 4.

Naslund and Forsberg eventually caught up when he started missing too many games. And even then he was still playing through an injury for most of this (he was shut down when I think it was tendonitis of the hip?) flared up the doctors shut him down for the season.

 

[Midnight Judges]

2009-2010 was Sidney Crosby's best season.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Crosby 2014 is the clear winner here. He was just a top to bottom better player in 2014 than 2007.

Lemieux’s first 40ish games were crazy, but he completely fell off the back 20 to the point he wasn't really a first line player anymore.

 

[centipede2233]

I’d take Crosby vs 2003 Lemieux. It’s been documented how much pain Lemieux played in as he ages due to back injuries. 2003 Lemieux was elite on the power play but maybe not near as dominate ES. I’ll take prime Crosby over him.

And I’m a big Lemieux fan, as amazing as he was still in 2003, prime Crosby would be a better hockey player then a 2003 Lemieux.

 

[Cup or Bust]

I think Lemieux is the most naturally gifted hockey player there has ever been but for him to score only 91 points in a season he was completely broken down and although he still had 91 points he wasn't that great. That is just how good Lemieux is offensively, he doesn't have to play very well to score only 91 points. Crosby was a better player the day he stepped into the NHL then Lemieux was at any point in the 2000's. Compared to his prime, Lemieux looked so slow and sluggish out there. Even when Lemieux torched the league for 76 points in 43 games after missing 3 seasons he was noticeably worse. Maybe I am underrating him because he was simply so good in his prime he could still outscore most players even looking slow and broken down compared to his prime. I will go with Crosby.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

I'll take a 37 year old washed Mario over Sid in his prime all day every day.

If you have to pick out a season where somebody is 37 years old and in constant pain to justify choosing a player in his prime, you completely lost to the old guy.

 

[Regal]

I agree that 09-10 is Crosby’s best full season. Of these I would say Crosby ‘14, then Crosby ‘07, then Lemieux. Lemieux had an insane start but then cooled off, and didn’t play a whole year. He was also playing a ton of minutes without much regard for the other side of the ice. Not that Crosby was any great shakes defensively in these years, especially ‘07, but I think he was better than Lemieux. And if we want to focus on Lemieux having a dominant start to suggest he was better but just couldn’t keep it up at that age, Crosby also had big starts in his years.

 

[bobholly39]

13-14 Crosby.

If Lemieux had been healthy - I might take him. But that's a theme for Lemieux of course unfortunately - but even at age 37, not so sure healthy lemieux wouldn't be better than peak Crosby.

 

[blundluntman]

I'm very tempted to take Lemieux here in all honesty but there are a few things at play here.

Before falling off a cliff in those last 15 games, Lemieux started his first 35 games with 70+ points for a 2.0 ppg and had 83 in his first 52. He was pretty bad in his last 15 games but before losing steam, he was the best offensively by far out of these 3 seasons. What takes away from this season though is that Lemieux's fall off wasn't likely just losing steam or going through a bad stretch, I suspect his age was genuinely catching up to him and the flame had flickered away. That season was a double edged sword for sure.

Crosby on the other hand in 2014 didn't have a long streak at that level offensively, but paced himself much better throughout the year and stringed together some short spurts of offense on a consistent basis. He also tapered off in the last 10 games and leading into the playoffs but it wasn't as drastic or seemingly permanent as Mario.

1st half Mario was definitely the best player between the 3, but I'd rather have Crosby's season as a whole if I was a fan.

 

[nowhereman]

Normally, I'm never voting against Lemieux unless the other poll option is Gretzky. But this is one of those questions where you can tell who watched these seasons and who is boxscore-watching. Lemieux is so talented that he doesn't really need to be at his best to put up points and he really wasn't. He scored half his production on the PP, was a defensive blackhole and completely fell off a cliff in the back half of the season. Crosby was clearly the superior player, especially in 2013-14.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Both of crosby

 

[Bouboumaster]

Lemieux was such a force of nature that, at 37 years old, after defeating cancer, and having a old, broken down body, is still compared to the best player of the last generation, at his best

Voting for Lemieux, as I'm 37 years old myself and respect the shit out of what Lemieux accomplished

 

[WalterLundy]

Normally, I'm never voting against Lemieux unless the other poll option is Gretzky. But this is one of those questions where you can tell who watched these seasons and who is boxscore-watching. Lemieux is so talented that he doesn't really need to be at his best to put up points and he really wasn't. He scored half his production on the PP, was a defensive blackhole and completely fell off a cliff in the back half of the season. Crosby was clearly the superior player, especially in 2013-14.

I completely agree with your first sentence. Lemieux only should get passed over in a poll including Gretzky and that’s it. Unless Orr is brought up maybe but I didn’t get to see his career really at all. However I feel the need to at least clear some things up. I definitely watched those seasons and was at many games in each of the three. I look at the Crosby years and have no issue with people taking him in either year over a 37 year old Lemieux. As an overall package he probably is the safer bet. My post was showing that statistically speaking the three years are about equal for adjusted ppg and for a 37 year old to do it is obscene. The year indeed did fall apart for Lemieux but the first 41 games of that season are actually better than Crosby’s 41 games at his absolute peak in 2011 for regular and adjusted figures let alone 2014 or 2007. To me as someone blown away in real time at what he was doing early in that season it isn’t easily able to be dismissed in my view.

Lemieux was heavily Powerplay dependent that year but his best years always had very high shares of powerplay points to his actual point total. In 1996 he had 79 of his 161 on the powerplay and was only a +10 and nobody really cares. 88, 89, 93 and 96 all had incredibly high league average powerplay goals and opportunities and those all are his best seasons. Lemieux was also never an impressive defensive player to me in his career at all let alone 2003 version. Again I think your choice of 13-14 Crosby is easily justified but this definitely isn’t a boxscore watcher here I had the privilege of seeing all of this happen up close and just thought 02-03 Mario being as good of a point producer as Crosby’s best warranted at least a closer look.

 

[Offtheboard412]

Best season/Better player? Crosby 2013/2014

Most impressive all things considered? Tie between Lemieux 02/03 and Crosby 06/07.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I completely agree with your first sentence. Lemieux only should get passed over in a poll including Gretzky and that’s it. Unless Orr is brought up maybe but I didn’t get to see his career really at all. However I feel the need to at least clear some things up. I definitely watched those seasons and was at many games in each of the three. I look at the Crosby years and have no issue with people taking him in either year over a 37 year old Lemieux. As an overall package he probably is the safer bet. My post was showing that statistically speaking the three years are about equal for adjusted ppg and for a 37 year old to do it is obscene. The year indeed did fall apart for Lemieux but the first 41 games of that season are actually better than Crosby’s 41 games at his absolute peak in 2011 for regular and adjusted figures let alone 2014 or 2007. To me as someone blown away in real time at what he was doing early in that season it isn’t easily able to be dismissed in my view.

Lemieux was heavily Powerplay dependent that year but his best years always had very high shares of powerplay points to his actual point total. In 1996 he had 79 of his 161 on the powerplay and was only a +10 and nobody really cares. 88, 89, 93 and 96 all had incredibly high league average powerplay goals and opportunities and those all are his best seasons. Lemieux was also never an impressive defensive player to me in his career at all let alone 2003 version. Again I think your choice of 13-14 Crosby is easily justified but this definitely isn’t a boxscore watcher here I had the privilege of seeing all of this happen up close and just thought 02-03 Mario being as good of a point producer as Crosby’s best warranted at least a closer look.

So you must believe mackinnion is the best player in the league? Two straight years he led the league in ev points. But im gonna guess you dont right? Man you bag on mario a lot for a guy who actually knows him

 

[WalterLundy]

So you must believe mackinnion is the best player in the league? Two straight years he led the league in ev points. But im gonna guess you dont right? Man you bag on mario a lot for a guy who actually knows him

Of course not. McDavid had the highest even strength ppg this year and since 2016 so good guess. I say that as a joke reply as ppg usually matters more on this site than actual point totals of any kind. I’m not bagging on Lemieux. I have him as the second best player of all time. Him thriving in high Powerplay environments doesn’t mean those points don’t count. I was responding to a post in which someone thought they were omniscient and assumed I never watched the seasons in question.

He accused Lemieux of being a powerplay merchant that year essentially. I responded back saying that most don’t care that Lemieux got a large share of his points on the powerplay. I don’t care how he got his points either because he was also elite at even strength every year as well as being good shorthanded too. I made the poll because I thought 02-03 Mario was better than either Crosby year but wanted to see what others thought. Mario in 2003 had 68 in his first 41 games which is better than Crosby’s peak of 66 in 41 in 2011. He also did that in a slightly lower scoring environment. I understand you aren’t a fan of my posts which most likely caused you to jump at me here but you need to read more thoroughly. Lemieux has been my favorite player forever.

 

[authentic]

There's no data in the OP to support this notion, but I assume 2014 Crosby was a better even strength player than 2003 Lemieux and 2007 Crosby. Crosby was dominant on the PP in 2007, to an extent that we haven't really seen since. Lemieux was always a PP killer. Obviously he was slower and older than in his prime and near the end of his career by then.

McDavid just last season was arguably the most dominant powerplay player ever I believe.

 

[authentic]

I think Lemieux is the most naturally gifted hockey player there has ever been but for him to score only 91 points in a season he was completely broken down and although he still had 91 points he wasn't that great. That is just how good Lemieux is offensively, he doesn't have to play very well to score only 91 points. Crosby was a better player the day he stepped into the NHL then Lemieux was at any point in the 2000's. Compared to his prime, Lemieux looked so slow and sluggish out there. Even when Lemieux torched the league for 76 points in 43 games after missing 3 seasons he was noticeably worse. Maybe I am underrating him because he was simply so good in his prime he could still outscore most players even looking slow and broken down compared to his prime. I will go with Crosby.

Lemieux actually had 63 points his first 34 games in 2002-03 as well.

 

[WalterLundy]

McDavid just last season was arguably the most dominant powerplay player ever I believe.

Without question. McDavid 2023 with 71 powerplay points is 4th all time as is. He trails only 88, 89 and 96 Lemieux with 80, 79 and 79 powerplay points respectively. The average powerplay goals per game in the history of the NHL is 0.72. The powerplay goals per game for the years in which the top 4 single seasons occurred in are:
‘88: 1.11
‘89: 1.06
‘96: 0.90
‘23: 0.65

McDavid’s 71 goes up to 79 in the historical league average. 88 Lemieux goes to 52, 89 Lemieux goes to 54 and 96 Lemieux goes to 63 powerplay points adjusted to the historical average. There isn’t a year that is even close for this in particular as far as I’m aware. I can look through other seasons and apply this conversion of sorts to those seasons to see which are best but this is definitely number one.

 

[wetcoast]

I'm actually pretty surprised that 14 people are voting for Mario in 02-03 than 12 for 06-07 Crosby and only 27 for 13-14 Crosby as Mario the player in 02-03 isn't anywhere clsoe to the player that crosby was in thsoe 2 years.

Sure he scored some points but he faded hugely down the stretch and wasn't exactly titling the ice at all at ES.

I will speculate that often people see a name like Gretzky or Mario and not actually read the question in hand.... but who knows.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

‘Better’ can mean many things, so I’m not sure what the criteria is. But Lemieux’s season is more impressive. Five years after retirement, bad team, puts up amazing numbers and was the best player in the league.

 

[centipede2233]

I think Lemieux is the most naturally gifted hockey player there has ever been but for him to score only 91 points in a season he was completely broken down and although he still had 91 points he wasn't that great. That is just how good Lemieux is offensively, he doesn't have to play very well to score only 91 points. Crosby was a better player the day he stepped into the NHL then Lemieux was at any point in the 2000's. Compared to his prime, Lemieux looked so slow and sluggish out there. Even when Lemieux torched the league for 76 points in 43 games after missing 3 seasons he was noticeably worse. Maybe I am underrating him because he was simply so good in his prime he could still outscore most players even looking slow and broken down compared to his prime. I will go with Crosby.

This is the correct answer. Lemieux even in 91-92 when he won his cups had downgraded from his peak in ‘89 due to back injuries. 2003 Lemieux was amongst the best offensively but he was so broken down