“There wasn’t much but I wanted a penalty against Nashville” UPD Tim Peel early retirement PART 2

[Paperbagofglory]

The cream will rise to the top, but the league tries to delay that rise through its manipulation of officiating “game management” and loser points. How many teams made the “playoffs” last year? Keeping the fans engaged for as long as possible in the belief they have a chance, whether that’s in individual games, or the overall season is a big part of the league’s method. This one ref isn’t some kind of outlier. He’s simply an extension of what the league tries to do - keep fans engaged.

The hilarious thing about last seasons desperate attempt at fan engagement actually ruined it. They invited fully rested teams that would not have made it otherwise. They ended up beating covid and injury depleted teams and you had the worst final possible with a flukey dallas stars run. Their stanley cup finals ratings were some of the lowest in their history. Despite everyone being at home.

 

[FMichael]

Lol yeah sure. Habs lead the league in penalties...corey perry is only on the ice for 10 minutes a game. Must he the notorious suzuki and all his dirtyness. Its not just leafs its general pooppluckering of all the refs and to keep the nhl " business" look legit. Its not 31 teams competing, it the nhl product vs other sports leagues. Everyone knows its messed up, but it for the greater good.

No offense to some of our southern markets, but we know many just dont have a good market for hockey no matter how hard they try.

Well at least AZ brought back these beauties...

 

[dcyhabs]

Name me one team sport where the fans don’t think the Referees or Umpires are out to get their favorite team. I’ll wait.

All fans should think the refs are slightly against them, fans are biased. One would hope that after a playoff series fans from both teams say "well the refs called a little more on us than on them, but not that much more."

Historically you have the Flyers giving their pet ref the keys to the city. You have refs trying to call the same number of penalties on either team. You have refs calling 10 consecutive penalties on a team after arguing with the coach.

I can think of a number of series where fans of one team would gloatingly say "I think the refs were absolutely fair and unbiased" after they gooned it up and got away with it.

It's changed over the years, too, a few years back star players go soft calls and 90% of players would never got calls. You'll always get reputation calls, I suppose, but it shouldn't be encoded in the system.

The problem is not the individual refs it is the way they are trained. They are told to give weak teams and expansion teams a chance so their fans don't drop, to try to keep the game close so that viewers don't change the channel, to try to call the same number of penalties on both teams because of stupidity, and who knows what else? Teams with vindictive owners (Boston for example) get preferential treatment at multiple levels because everyone in the process knows their owner will to to great lengths to get petty vengeance.

 

[Doc McKenna]

TBH, I'm not against the two ref system. I was against it at first, but with two refs calling the shots then one ref can't control the game with their style. I recall one aging ref that called everything and gave out penalties early just to show who was in charge and it made for a boring game where it was the ref, not the coaches calling the shots on how the players played. On the opposite end you had Kerry Fraser who let everything go which was great till one team ran away with the game or at the end where the the players were so mad at each other you couldn't control them.

The other night in the Canucks Winnipeg game we got a call from the ref up at the ice that the one right in front of just ignored. The two refs system evens out the calls and reduces the bias. And yes, I'm aware there are times that backfires but more often than not after official discussion they find a way to fix those.

Maybe we should call that a Tim Peel from no on.

I watched a game live one time and as the play went up the ice Dana Murzyn had someone up against the boards, jammed his knee behind his opponent and started rotating it. A back referee would have caught it. It was then that I understood how the goon era happened. There's too much going on for one referee to handle at any one time.

The only real downside to two refs I see is there are now too many bodies on the ice that. interfere with the play.

Allow linesman to make calls. 3 refs on the ice, one less body.

There's another part to this - what are the Broadcast guys going to say? Someone mentioned "Make Up Call" and I kept thinking about how so often when getting more power plays, especially when a team scores, the Broadcasters always point out how that team needs to be careful they don't draw one - that they don't get Peeled.

For the next while Bettman is going "ask" them not to draw attention to that kind of officiating. No one questions that this will go back to business as usual but you wonder how long the play by play and color guys will keep their mouths shut about it,

Yeah i have seen this from a nunber of announcers that are clearly biased. No not just jack edwards either. To the point we would see cherry, using their tone as a jumping off point for whatever rant he was on.

The nhl is clearly a mess and this is finally shedding light on a bush league. This isnt a one off. And as a senior guy peele would have been training new refs. Would he be making them understand the importance of game management.

The most responsible is everyone. From owners to Bettman to gms to coaches, who get fined if they mention the piss poor system, to the players. Everyone just says " it will even out at the end" the question is does it

The refs (league) definitely do have a different bias for every team based on market, growing the game, tradition etc. It just comes with the league being business first.

For example, a borderline dirty huge hit in a game between two California teams goes uncalled and results in a good fight, and it's normal. But if it happened in the North division, it's dirty and and not a regular occurrence, there would be outrage and fans wondering where the call is. The game is played and officiated differently throughout the league.

Do we think the refs were neutral, unfair, or very generous to Vegas during their little "cinderella" run their first year? Obviously on their side. If it's all about business first, then don't kid yourself. The league prefers certain teams going far and others to not make it.

Or player bias. Cant have any star player get those misconduct penalties, suspensions or clear dirty hits.and i say this as someone who has corey perry on his team. A once star and rat who had a blind eye turned on a number of occasions. I know a boston player that gets more than his share of reasonable doubt on a lot of his dirty plays, such as knee on knee, slew legging, submarining, checks from behind, spears...etc. Star players should have the same rules as a raffi torres, matt cooke, or steve downey.

 

[Paperbagofglory]

Or player bias. Cant have any star player get those misconduct penalties, suspensions or clear dirty hits.and i say this as someone who has corey perry on his team. A once star and rat who had a blind eye turned on a number of occasions. I know a boston player that gets more than his share of reasonable doubt on a lot of his dirty plays, such as knee on knee, slew legging, submarining, checks from behind, spears...etc. Star players should have the same rules as a raffi torres, matt cooke, or steve downey.

Star players aren't head hunters like those guys were. This is why they were always going to be treated more harshly be the refs. If Mcdavid hits someone from behind does he deserve the same kind of scrutiny as Matt Cooke did? You can tell which one of them was doing it intentionally based on reputation. Refs can still make reputation calls, that's not necessarily a bad thing to keep those players in check.

 

[dcyhabs]

Allow linesman to make calls. 3 refs on the ice, one less body.

Seeing one ref making a call from the opposite side of the rink on a play going on right in front of the other ref who decided not to call it always bugs me. Do the refs disagree on what a penalty is? Does the guy on the other side of the rink think he has a better view than the guy who's right there? Do I just not understand the sight lines?

 

[dcyhabs]

We had evidence before. We have eyes and a partially functioning brain. The league has gotten worse at pretending the game is legit. The stat nerds help confirm this evidence. Math does not lie.

There was a stat argument/analysis a while back that home field/ice advantage in all sports was mostly ref/ump bias. Looking at home record vs road record could be something to look at I say as a fan of the most penalized team in the league that is much worse at home than on the road.

 

[StreetHawk]

Seeing one ref making a call from the opposite side of the rink on a play going on right in front of the other ref who decided not to call it always bugs me. Do the refs disagree on what a penalty is? Does the guy on the other side of the rink think he has a better view than the guy who's right there? Do I just not understand the sight lines?

In the case of football, an official who is further away from the play can and do throw flags when the closest official does not. But, football they can review the play and pick up the flag. So, no harm no foul in essence. In baseball, balls and strikes are not reviewable, only plays at the bases and catches and hits.
NBA and NHL are about flow. Once you call it, the play will stop. NHL, there is the delayed call, so that changes how the 2 teams play until the offending team touches the puck. So, no chance to reverse the call.

With technology today, the best way to judge an official is to mount a camera into the logo of the helmet to see what the official sees, like they had at the last World Cup. I recall seeing the replay of that hit that Ekblad took behind the net. Knew it was coming, but man, it's so out of the blue, hard to even tell what happened. Gave me a new appreciation for calling the game.

 

[crazy8888]

So many times you see a ref look right at an obvious infraction and does nothing as if he was starring straight through the players. So often you see a good play get called a penalty.
Makes you wonder how many of those times were not coincidences

Also, i'm surprised no one dug around for more footage of this ref making bad calls. Perhaps more footage comes our in the near future now that people know where and what to look for.

 

[Paperbagofglory]

So many times you see a ref look right at an obvious infraction and does nothing as if he was starring straight through the players. So often you see a good play get called a penalty.
Makes you wonder how many of those times were not coincidences

Also, i'm surprised no one dug around for more footage of this ref making bad calls. Perhaps more footage comes our in the near future now that people know where and what to look for.

These guys want to be the stars of the show. There is no damn reason we should know the name of a ref. Yet Don Koharski and Kerry Fraser are famous, they love it.

Tim Peel will probably be the most famous ref in the NHL's history at this point.

 

[dcyhabs]

In the case of football, an official who is further away from the play can and do throw flags when the closest official does not. But, football they can review the play and pick up the flag. So, no harm no foul in essence. In baseball, balls and strikes are not reviewable, only plays at the bases and catches and hits.
NBA and NHL are about flow. Once you call it, the play will stop. NHL, there is the delayed call, so that changes how the 2 teams play until the offending team touches the puck. So, no chance to reverse the call.

With technology today, the best way to judge an official is to mount a camera into the logo of the helmet to see what the official sees, like they had at the last World Cup. I recall seeing the replay of that hit that Ekblad took behind the net. Knew it was coming, but man, it's so out of the blue, hard to even tell what happened. Gave me a new appreciation for calling the game.

Calling a game is hard. In baseball they have a non-human system doing ball/strike calls in parallel, I wonder if they configured it to check how the catcher frames it? Tradition is hard, too.

You will never get perfect reffing, and it's really tough for each individual. Ideally these guys end up hated by everyone because all fans on all teams are biased. You will always get missed and blown calls. The Peel issue brings up flaws in the system. Blowing a call is OK, it happens, making a call for a reason outside the game may be really bad. Depends.

Calling stuff early to make the point that it's not going to pass (ref is not going to allow holding/roughing/diving/whatever) may be OK. Making a call because Vegas is an expansion team, or letting Philly goon it up back in the day because they were is not OK. Making calls so that you call the same number of penalties is really bad, it encourages teams to take penalties as the ref will stop calling on one team and call fake penalties on the team playing within the rules, but I think it may be less frequent lately, possibly depending on teams/refs/whatever.

Making a call because team x is down a goal or two and league revenues drop if team y runs away with it and viewers change the channel sucks, but pretty much all refs do it.

Calling things differently in the playoffs is silly, though it may explain why so few teams with the best regular season records win the cup. Can you win with rules? OK, now try to play without rules...

These guys want to be the stars of the show. There is no damn reason we should know the name of a ref. Yet Don Koharski and Kerry Fraser are famous, they love it.

Tim Peel will probably be the most famous ref in the NHL's history at this point.

Good refs are mildly disliked or unknown. Or both.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Found this on my recommended videos. Youtube algorithm is at it again.

No I did not search for this clip.

Don't feel bad for Peel getting relieved of his duties. His mouth is full of shit anyway.

?? Did he not use his stick to foul the player?

 

[Ted Hoffman]

DOPS has been a disaster since Shanahan left. Not that it was ever very good, but its taken a nosedive.

DOPS was a disaster even when Shanahan was there. We got glossy-looking videos to mostly explain things and a few months of sanity on punishments before standards backslid into the same maddening inconsistency. But yes, it's taken a nosedive even from that low standard.

 

[Neil Racki]

Would you say hockey is the hardest most subjective sport to ref?

Baseball ... its balls and strikes as the only subjective decision and umps can be inconsistent with their zone but the subjective decision making is really limited to that one aspect of the game.

Basketball .. I could see this being a lot like hockey. Lots of moving players, touch fouls very subjective, continuous team play sport and while fouls can result in 2 FTs, Id say 2 min penalty is a bigger impact on the game outcome than 2 FTs.

Football .. its a fast game, lots of allowed contact and they could call a hold on every snap honestly. But its not a continuous flow game, its a fast crazy 3-5 seconds of play then whistle and 30 seconds to reset. Also refs are in a better position bc theres more of them and they are each responsible for very specific aspects of game. But a big PI call or bogus roughing the passer to extend a drive and that would have a huge impact on the final outcome of the game.

 

[NotAVacuumSalesman]

?? Did he not use his stick to foul the player?

The player that fell down lost an edge and the push from the stick had little force to knock him down. The penalty was called from centre ice while there is an official that's closer that had a better vantage point than Peel did. And that official didn't raise his hand for a penalty.

It's very weak to call it a penalty. The penalty on the play was called tripping. Did you actually see a tripping infraction?

 

[Ted Hoffman]

So many times you see a ref look right at an obvious infraction and does nothing as if he was starring straight through the players. So often you see a good play get called a penalty.
Makes you wonder how many of those times were not coincidences

I'm going to be conservative and say 80% of this board has never officiated even one game in any sport, at any level. Everyone should have to referee about 40 or so games, from about 10-12 level up, and then come back and talk about how easy officiating is. I'll wager that at least 95% of them will say "I'll never officiate anything ever again."

So many times you see a ref look right at an obvious infraction and does nothing as if he was starring straight through the players. So often you see a good play get called a penalty.
Makes you wonder how many of those times were not coincidences

I'm going to be conservative and say 80% of this board has never officiated even one game in any sport, at any level. Everyone should have to referee about 40 or so games, from about 10-12 level up, and then come back and talk about how easy officiating is. I'll wager that at least 95% of them will say "I'll never officiate anything ever again."

 

[crazy8888]

I'm going to be conservative and say 80% of this board has never officiated even one game in any sport, at any level. Everyone should have to referee about 40 or so games, from about 10-12 level up, and then come back and talk about how easy officiating is. I'll wager that at least 95% of them will say "I'll never officiate anything ever again."


I'm going to be conservative and say 80% of this board has never officiated even one game in any sport, at any level. Everyone should have to referee about 40 or so games, from about 10-12 level up, and then come back and talk about how easy officiating is. I'll wager that at least 95% of them will say "I'll never officiate anything ever again."

I did not say it was an easy job. I know its extremely difficult to ref and nearly impossible to get to do it in major leagues. However, one ref already got caught making up calls. Don't you think its logical to think that perhaps there are other instances of this that were not caught?

 

[barilko05]

That's literally all we want. But for the NHL to expand, they feel like it's the best thing to do. If games are blowouts or one team keeps committing infractions, they will probably lose a lot of casual viewers and it's harder to sell a non-competitive game to newer markets. For the leagues economic well being it's the best play but for the integrity of the game and what most of us die hard hockey fans want, it's complete BS.

If this is the NHL's position, then they obviously haven't been paying attention to the NBA. Their ratings still dwarf the NHLs, and they are a league generally made up of a couple of superteams who regularly blowout opponents, an assortment of mid level teams who occasionally rise to the upper tier, and a plethora of bottom feeders. The teams in each level aren't always the same, but there's always generally the same in each. And after their reffing scandal, they instituted more on court checks with replay, not just on scoring plays but on foul calls as well. Its still not great, but its a damn site better than the NHL's current system. I think they need to institute a 5th offical...an off ice eye in the sky at each game...to oversee the game. Or take the 2nd ref and put him there. Or give the linesmen the power to call all penalties. It might be a huge f***in' mess to start with but eventually a sense of order will be established and the players will adapt. And this time, unlike the 2005 rule tightening, it should be reviewed every off season so there's no slacking off and returning to the old, broken system.

 

[AvroArrow]

If this is the NHL's position, then they obviously haven't been paying attention to the NBA. Their ratings still dwarf the NHLs, and they are a league generally made up of a couple of superteams who regularly blowout opponents, an assortment of mid level teams who occasionally rise to the upper tier, and a plethora of bottom feeders. The teams in each level aren't always the same, but there's always generally the same in each. And after their reffing scandal, they instituted more on court checks with replay, not just on scoring plays but on foul calls as well. Its still not great, but its a damn site better than the NHL's current system. I think they need to institute a 5th offical...an off ice eye in the sky at each game...to oversee the game. Or take the 2nd ref and put him there. Or give the linesmen the power to call all penalties. It might be a huge f***in' mess to start with but eventually a sense of order will be established and the players will adapt. And this time, unlike the 2005 rule tightening, it should be reviewed every off season so there's no slacking off and returning to the old, broken system.

I've also been suggesting this. We have more than enough resources/technology in modern day to get this done, it's such an easy and simple fix.

But selling hockey is a lot harder than selling basketball to American markets imo. Basketball is a faster paced game, more scoring/action happening throughout the game. Hockey has always been the least popular of the 4 major sports in NA. It's hard to attract viewers if games aren't close. That's just how I see it, trying to put myself in the shoes of the leagues leaders and it's the only rational thing I can come up with. They will always do whatever is necessary to grow the game and generate revenue.

 

[Paperbagofglory]

If this is the NHL's position, then they obviously haven't been paying attention to the NBA. Their ratings still dwarf the NHLs, and they are a league generally made up of a couple of superteams who regularly blowout opponents, an assortment of mid level teams who occasionally rise to the upper tier, and a plethora of bottom feeders. The teams in each level aren't always the same, but there's always generally the same in each. And after their reffing scandal, they instituted more on court checks with replay, not just on scoring plays but on foul calls as well. Its still not great, but its a damn site better than the NHL's current system. I think they need to institute a 5th offical...an off ice eye in the sky at each game...to oversee the game. Or take the 2nd ref and put him there. Or give the linesmen the power to call all penalties. It might be a huge f***in' mess to start with but eventually a sense of order will be established and the players will adapt. And this time, unlike the 2005 rule tightening, it should be reviewed every off season so there's no slacking off and returning to the old, broken system.

The NBA is losing in ratings to reruns of reality shows. The golden state warriors gave them a ratings bump so like out of touch corporate idiots, they thought fans wanted to see 3 point shooting contests from every team. The pendulum swung to far the other way in that league.

 

[EichHart]

Would you say hockey is the hardest most subjective sport to ref?

Baseball ... its balls and strikes as the only subjective decision and umps can be inconsistent with their zone but the subjective decision making is really limited to that one aspect of the game.

Basketball .. I could see this being a lot like hockey. Lots of moving players, touch fouls very subjective, continuous team play sport and while fouls can result in 2 FTs, Id say 2 min penalty is a bigger impact on the game outcome than 2 FTs.

Football .. its a fast game, lots of allowed contact and they could call a hold on every snap honestly. But its not a continuous flow game, its a fast crazy 3-5 seconds of play then whistle and 30 seconds to reset. Also refs are in a better position bc theres more of them and they are each responsible for very specific aspects of game. But a big PI call or bogus roughing the passer to extend a drive and that would have a huge impact on the final outcome of the game.

I think football is the hardest by far. You know how many penalties are not called each game on the line of scrimmage or holding/PA calls on the wideouts? There are far too many players on the field for refs to keep track of.

 

[MikeGrier99]

The worst thing about this whole thing is the number of people who are writing this off as a bad referee and not a serious problem with how NHL games are officiated in general, which is certainly something that is directed from the league office. Game management is stupid and needs to stop. If there's a penalty, call it. If not, don't.

It's not like we're dealing with rogue actors here.

It seems to be an attempt to cover this all up. The NHL wants us to be mindless fans and to go back to worshiping their shitty "product" that has no reason to be shitty. It's bizarre that the NHL would rather have a game that can be artificially controlled and manipulated, rather than just giving us real hockey. Of course NHL hockey culture is so ridiculously rigid and conformist that most of the players speaking out are giving ridiculous statements like "oh the game is just really hard to ref." It's bizarre how blind some of these guys are, they make the big money and then they don't really care after that. If I were McDavid I would be furious, he's lost probably something like 5-10% of his career point totals because of not getting calls against him. Not to mention success in the playoffs, like the 2017 series against Anaheim that was full of atrocious calls and non calls.

It's pathetic, Bettman has done nothing be degrade the quality of the league for many years. He wants Phoenix to be dragged into artificial playoff races because of loser points and "game management" from refs. The game is partially fake, that's just a fact. Minor hockey is more exciting than NHL hockey because it's more or less real, and although the refs aren't perfect, they are most of the time just trying to call a reasonable game. The NHL is tampered with in many ways, and it's just to try and squeeze every dollar that they can out of the game.

 

[TKB]

I think football is the hardest by far. You know how many penalties are not called each game on the line of scrimmage or holding/PA calls on the wideouts? There are far too many players on the field for refs to keep track of.

I've never officiated football and only played a couple of years in Jr High, so I won't judge how hard it is to referee, but I will offer some comparisons for your obseravations.

Football has more players, but they also have 7 officials for 22 players, all with specific areas of responsibility. Players line up in specific spots and the action occurs in plays, though one has to remember that officials are doing a lot of work in between plays.

Hockey has 4 officials for 12 players - a pretty similar ratio. The two referees work together to cover ALL of the players for penalties. The linesman, work together to cover all players for off-side, icing, puck over the glass, potential majors missed by the referees, too many men, and what most don't realize is all the work linesman do between the whistles: putting out fires, talking to players calming them down or keeping them out of trouble, retrieving pucks and conducting good face-offs. All things that seem pretty simple, but are much more nuanced and important to a game than the public understands.

The play is continuous, fast and dangerous, particularly for the lineys.

 

[snag]

George Parros being head of DoPS is a joke. Did the NHL look at Kevin Mitnick and say "Hey....that is totally applicable here" and run out to hire the biggest douche for the job?

Edit: damn....the quote disapppeared but I am lazy. screw it

 

[AllDay28]

No, we had opinions and people wearing tin foil hats

This is the first concrete evidence.

If you are so sure of the evidence you claim to have, I suggest you go to both the FBI and RCMP, GIVE THEM THE INFO of the nhl and refs fixing games, which is illigal

go look up moneypuck on Twitter which has the statistical information on likelihood of getting the next penalty.

btw in the future if you’re gonna be condescending, know what you’re talking about