When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[Martin Skoula]

And the plan has been in the works for decades:


View attachment 860131

StevAn Al-Yzem, as the prophecy foretold. The voice from the valley.

 

[Our Lady Peace]

I agree with the gist of your post, but those moves remind me of why I'm not that enamored with Yzerman's work in Detroit so far (though I do think he's a good GM overall). A lot of "1 step forward, 1 step back" moves.

- Mantha might be a flop, but he's a whole lot more valuable than Vrana, a guy nobody picked up when Yzerman put him on waivers, on top of swallowing the Panik cap dump. Of course, the picks offset that difference, so it's a decent trade overall. But then Yzerman packages that 1st rounder with a few others to move up in the draft to get Cossa at 15. Dallas uses the original pick to draft Wyatt Johnston instead. I dunno, even if you're a big Cossa believer, that doesn't seem like SY's best sequence of moves.

- Yzerman gives up a bunch of assets to get Debrincat's rights, which is fine. But he then proceeds to significantly overpay him. 8M for an undersized 65-70 pts scorer who's useless when not producing? At least he didn't give him term.

- Trading away a young top-4 Dman for a mid-range 1st rounder when your defence is as dire as Detroit's seems questionable to me. Maybe ASP will be a top-4 Dman in 5 years, but it's far from guaranteed.

And that's ignoring more minor trades that didn't quite work out, like giving up assets for the corpses of Jeff Petry and Nick Leddy, or swallowing Yamamoto's contract for Klim Kostin, who does nothing in Detroit. Of course it's easy to forgive this stuff when the team is bad, there's no expectations and the team has plenty of picks and cap space to leverage into assets. But still it gives the impression that Yzerman's pro scouting in Detroit is weaker than his amateur scouting, and that will matter more and more as the team moves out of the rebuild phase.

Fair enough, your points are valid. I just see it as the team was in a clear transition phase this year where if their captain didn't go down, they probably would have been willed into a comfy wildcard spot. In that case, this thread would be 700 posts shorter lmao.

Ultimately Hronek was going to price himself out of Detroit and they didn't see the upside in him to pay him what likely would be 7M/year with term. That doesn't fit the Yzerman timeline but I do see that with his signings, it seems he's scrambling to fill the roster while awaiting his top prospects to come in.

With how ASP has looked, it becomes easier to lose Hronek, who needs to be carried more/less and ideally is a very good #4 and PP#2 guy.

I'm curious to see if Kane returns and what kind of offseason is ahead. Like you said, Yzerman's pro scouting may not be up to par with the amateur scouting and that is a legit concern. Hoping he can unload Holl to [insert bottom feeder with cap space) and buy out Petry. Those would be the most important moves to make right away. We'll see.

Perfect storm would be Pesce (who I'd rather pay 7M for over Hronek, for example) or maybe a Montour can end up at the 2nd pair RD spot by the time August rolls around. Solidifying the defense should be priority #1 if this team wants to win more games and have less goals scored against. Goaltending, well, maybe somehow take in a Markstrom who has 2 years left on his deal.

 

[FMichael]

Y'all are really still arguing over this?

Started with Mantha as his #2 player and Zadina/Veleno as his Top 2 prospects. Really can't put it much more bluntly than that.

My eldest son and I chuckled over the idea of bringing Bertuzzi back to Detroit…

 

[dekelikekocur]

Zadina, in his D1 year, outperformed Kasper in his D2 year in GR.

I can assure you that in his D2 year, Zadina still had very high perceived value, including amongst wings fans.

By your logic, Yzerman would be foolish not to trade Kasper, who is "less great out of the gate" than Zadina was... Do you see the problem with using hindsight to judge decisions made in the past?


Disagree with this completely... Go search 2019 red Wings forum discussions about the player, or better yet, red Wings fans posting in the general trade thread board in '19, '20, '21 in Zadina related trade proposals.



By this rational, Yzerman isn't to be credited with current prospects either then, right?

A bit of selective credit/blame at play here.



What exaggeration?

It is a fact that several publications rated the red Wings prospect pool highly.

Fact that the red Wings in the summer of 2019 did not have many problematic long term contracts on the books.

Fact that Yzerman had fan and ownership buy in for a lengthy rebuild

Fact that Yzerman had ownership willing to spend.

You're the only one making exaggerated and ungrounded claims here.

Bobby Mac had him 4th

Concencus HW also 4th

No one had Hayton in top 5, Kotkaniemi was a late riser & still a surprise at 3

Bottom line, 6th was not exactly a big fall.



And Veleno was as high as 6th in some draft rankings...




Sooooo a decent player on a good RFA cap hit?
Not exactly a bad inheritance I'd say

You just keep whining about "highly ranked prospect pool" despite evidence and everything since saying you're hopelessly lost.

I don't really care what "you can assure me". The fact is, wings sub along with trade discussions etc did not favor Zadina in any way shape or form. Sure you can find outliers who were just as ignorant as you, but like in every other aspect of life, we try to dissuade the dumb out of people and it may or may not fix them.

At no point have I given Yzerman a lot of credit for the picks, drafting is a "team" effort, scouts at all levels, front office etc are all involved, I personally can't stand Drapers selections in general, I think Draper needs to be demoted and/or shot into the moon for the most part, although Mazur is one of my favorite prospects, Draper overall has shit the bed with the leeway he's been given.

His first couple years we don't know if ownership was willing to spend, it wasn't till we started getting some decent prospects that Chris seems to have opened the pocket book, hell, for a couple years it was amazing they made cap floor.

Everything I'm claiming aligns with history, press releases, and watching both the team and watching our prospects develop. As far as Velano, I think the fact that he's a servicable 4th liner really doesn't reflect that it's a great inheritance, when Holland crapped out on so many selections and the few peices still with the team are Larkin, Velano, Ras, and we'll see what happens with Berg, but yea, 1 good center, 1 servicable 4th liner, 1 middle six guy who has moments of inspiration, and a dude who doesn't tip the scales enough to avoid being sent back to GR. That's out of... 5 years with 6 first rounders, 5ish second rounders.

Yzerman and his team have already drafted Mo, Ray, and Ed who all surpass everything outside of Larkin for Holland's draft picks/Yzerman's inheritance. One of those came from a draft where Yzerman had no real "Wings" intel beyond what Holland's crew brought to the table, and he picked Mo instead of what everyone else though was BPA.

6th was a huge fall, this past year we seen the russian kid drop but that was due to geopolitical/league drama stuff, Zadina had none of that. When multiple agencies have you ranked at 2 or 3, dropping past the likes of Kotkaniemi who was ranked to go around 9th, Hayton was ranked around 13th if I recall, Brady Thachuk went around where he was ranked. But Kot and Hayton were both drafted well ahead when Zadina was considered the BPA from scouting reports. Regardless, it was Holland's blunder, Yzerman tried to make the best of it and eventually cut the kid loose. So it's not even really part of the conversation at this point.


As far as "He's doing better than Kasper" One's a center who is learning to play on NA ice, the other is a winger who already had a year on NA ice. Also, Zadina was billed as a scoring winger while Kasper was/is billed as a 2 way center.

You're inability to use context is absolutely amazing. Like someone else said, you have to be trolling to be this blatantly ignorant about so many things and to keep hammering on the same disproven bs over and over.

 

[Zarzh]

You just keep whining about "highly ranked prospect pool" despite evidence and everything since saying you're hopelessly lost.

I don't really care what "you can assure me". The fact is, wings sub along with trade discussions etc did not favor Zadina in any way shape or form. Sure you can find outliers who were just as ignorant as you, but like in every other aspect of life, we try to dissuade the dumb out of people and it may or may not fix them.

At no point have I given Yzerman a lot of credit for the picks, drafting is a "team" effort, scouts at all levels, front office etc are all involved, I personally can't stand Drapers selections in general, I think Draper needs to be demoted and/or shot into the moon for the most part, although Mazur is one of my favorite prospects, Draper overall has shit the bed with the leeway he's been given.

His first couple years we don't know if ownership was willing to spend, it wasn't till we started getting some decent prospects that Chris seems to have opened the pocket book, hell, for a couple years it was amazing they made cap floor.

Everything I'm claiming aligns with history, press releases, and watching both the team and watching our prospects develop. As far as Velano, I think the fact that he's a servicable 4th liner really doesn't reflect that it's a great inheritance, when Holland crapped out on so many selections and the few peices still with the team are Larkin, Velano, Ras, and we'll see what happens with Berg, but yea, 1 good center, 1 servicable 4th liner, 1 middle six guy who has moments of inspiration, and a dude who doesn't tip the scales enough to avoid being sent back to GR. That's out of... 5 years with 6 first rounders, 5ish second rounders.

Yzerman and his team have already drafted Mo, Ray, and Ed who all surpass everything outside of Larkin for Holland's draft picks/Yzerman's inheritance. One of those came from a draft where Yzerman had no real "Wings" intel beyond what Holland's crew brought to the table, and he picked Mo instead of what everyone else though was BPA.

6th was a huge fall, this past year we seen the russian kid drop but that was due to geopolitical/league drama stuff, Zadina had none of that. When multiple agencies have you ranked at 2 or 3, dropping past the likes of Kotkaniemi who was ranked to go around 9th, Hayton was ranked around 13th if I recall, Brady Thachuk went around where he was ranked. But Kot and Hayton were both drafted well ahead when Zadina was considered the BPA from scouting reports. Regardless, it was Holland's blunder, Yzerman tried to make the best of it and eventually cut the kid loose. So it's not even really part of the conversation at this point.


As far as "He's doing better than Kasper" One's a center who is learning to play on NA ice, the other is a winger who already had a year on NA ice. Also, Zadina was billed as a scoring winger while Kasper was/is billed as a 2 way center.

You're inability to use context is absolutely amazing. Like someone else said, you have to be trolling to be this blatantly ignorant about so many things and to keep hammering on the same disproven bs over and over.

Kasper has looked pretty bad so far. It would be one thing if Ed looked better offensively in Detroit than GR but he hasn't. There's a pretty short list of guys who have managed to turn it around from where Kasper is right now.

 

[saska sault]

Kasper has looked pretty bad so far. It would be one thing if Ed looked better offensively in Detroit than GR but he hasn't. There's a pretty short list of guys who have managed to turn it around from where Kasper is right now.

Kasper hasn't met your expectations, but I'm guessing you watch the stat sheet more than actual Grand Rapids games..

 

[Dotter]

Kasper has looked pretty bad so far.

Please elaborate.

 

[Dotter]

Kasper hasn't met your expectations, but I'm guessing you watch the stat sheet more than actual Grand Rapids games..

Posts like his crack me up. You can look at the 2022 draft and see nobody past #8 in the first round is showing anything more spectacular. In fact, Kasper is proving to be the best forward picked from #8-#32 if a redraft was to happen today! Who knows what that 2022 draft looks like in 5 years, but as of today, Yzerman selected the best possible forward available.

But context doesn't matter to trolls. They just want to look at a stat and think they have some kind of 'gotcha' one-liner they can spew.

 

[Dotter]

I agree with the gist of your post, but those moves remind me of why I'm not that enamored with Yzerman's work in Detroit so far (though I do think he's a good GM overall). A lot of "1 step forward, 1 step back" moves.

- Mantha might be a flop, but he's a whole lot more valuable than Vrana, a guy nobody picked up when Yzerman put him on waivers, on top of swallowing the Panik cap dump. Of course, the picks offset that difference, so it's a decent trade overall. But then Yzerman packages that 1st rounder with a few others to move up in the draft to get Cossa at 15. Dallas uses the original pick to draft Wyatt Johnston instead. I dunno, even if you're a big Cossa believer, that doesn't seem like SY's best sequence of moves.

- Yzerman gives up a bunch of assets to get Debrincat's rights, which is fine. But he then proceeds to significantly overpay him. 8M for an undersized 65-70 pts scorer who's useless when not producing? At least he didn't give him term.

- Trading away a young top-4 Dman for a mid-range 1st rounder when your defence is as dire as Detroit's seems questionable to me. Maybe ASP will be a top-4 Dman in 5 years, but it's far from guaranteed.

And that's ignoring more minor trades that didn't quite work out, like giving up assets for the corpses of Jeff Petry and Nick Leddy, or swallowing Yamamoto's contract for Klim Kostin, who does nothing in Detroit. Of course it's easy to forgive this stuff when the team is bad, there's no expectations and the team has plenty of picks and cap space to leverage into assets. But still it gives the impression that Yzerman's pro scouting in Detroit is weaker than his amateur scouting, and that will matter more and more as the team moves out of the rebuild phase.

That's a long post just to say there is not a GM in sports history who hasn't had an unforeseen hindsight misstep. You could have simply wrote "Yzerman had some unlucky moments just like every other professional sports GM in the world." -- the same message would have been expressed.

Luckily the missteps where insignificant and minor, and he's made more positive moves to get the club out of the bowels of hell that Ken Holland sunk them to.

The only notable mistake Yzerman has made was signing Holl. But when you look at it with context, it makes sense.

1. Edvinsson was injured and was going to be out, then recondition in the AHL.
2. Depth
3. Petry then become available (which is the guy Yzerman wanted)
4. Signing Petry pushed Holl down
5. Yzerman wanted depth, but the D stayed relatively healthy enough as a whole.
6. Yzerman probably anticipated to flip Holl at TDL, but he had no value since he wasn't playing.

Holl is an insignificant mistake. It's going to be interesting to see what he has up his sleeve with him. I honestly would not be surprised if he trades him for +/plus assets.

 

[Zarzh]

Please elaborate.

Kasper's production is historically low for 19 year olds who played most of their whole season in the AHL, especially those in their DY+2. If he doesn't drastically improve next seasons, his odds of even sticking in the NHL are low.

 

[MOGlLNY]

nvm I don’t feel like getting into an argument over prospects. Delete

 

[Dotter]

Kasper's production is historically low for 19 year olds who played most of their whole season in the AHL, especially those in their DY+2. If he doesn't drastically improve next seasons, his odds of even sticking in the NHL are low.

Where would you put Kasper in a redraft today, and what forward is selected #8?

 

[ricky0034]

Kasper's production is historically low for 19 year olds who played most of their whole season in the AHL, especially those in their DY+2. If he doesn't drastically improve next seasons, his odds of even sticking in the NHL are low.

this is a pretty big exaggeration even if you ignore his slow start due to having to spend the offseason recovering from an injury

barring injury he's gonna at the very least have a long career in the NHL in a bottom six role

 

[Miller Time]

You just keep whining about "highly ranked prospect pool" despite evidence and everything since saying you're hopelessly lost.

Zero evidence to contrary has been provided.

You appear to mistake opinion for fact.

I don't really care what "you can assure me". The fact is, wings sub along with trade discussions etc did not favor Zadina in any way shape or form. Sure you can find outliers who were just as ignorant as you, but like in every other aspect of life, we try to dissuade the dumb out of people and it may or may not fix them.

this is verifiably false

At no point have I given Yzerman a lot of credit for the picks, drafting is a "team" effort, scouts at all levels, front office etc are all involved, I personally can't stand Drapers selections in general, I think Draper needs to be demoted and/or shot into the moon for the most part, although Mazur is one of my favorite prospects, Draper overall has shit the bed with the leeway he's been given.

Meh.
You miss the point.

His first couple years we don't know if ownership was willing to spend, it wasn't till we started getting some decent prospects that Chris seems to have opened the pocket book, hell, for a couple years it was amazing they made cap floor.

False.

Everything I'm claiming aligns with history, press releases, and watching both the team and watching our prospects develop. As far as Velano, I think the fact that he's a servicable 4th liner really doesn't reflect that it's a great inheritance, when Holland crapped out on so many selections and the few peices still with the team are Larkin, Velano, Ras, and we'll see what happens with Berg, but yea, 1 good center, 1 servicable 4th liner, 1 middle six guy who has moments of inspiration, and a dude who doesn't tip the scales enough to avoid being sent back to GR. That's out of... 5 years with 6 first rounders, 5ish second rounders.

Lost in the weeds, missing the point.

Yzerman and his team have already drafted Mo, Ray, and Ed who all surpass everything outside of Larkin for Holland's draft picks/Yzerman's inheritance. One of those came from a draft where Yzerman had no real "Wings" intel beyond what Holland's crew brought to the table, and he picked Mo instead of what everyone else though was BPA.

Irrelevant. This isn't a thread comparing Yzerman to Holland. I'm sure you can find lots of threads to discuss that on the wings board.

6th was a huge fall, this past year we seen the russian kid drop but that was due to geopolitical/league drama stuff, Zadina had none of that. When multiple agencies have you ranked at 2 or 3, dropping past the likes of Kotkaniemi who was ranked to go around 9th, Hayton was ranked around 13th if I recall, Brady Thachuk went around where he was ranked. But Kot and Hayton were both drafted well ahead when Zadina was considered the BPA from scouting reports. Regardless, it was Holland's blunder, Yzerman tried to make the best of it and eventually cut the kid loose. So it's not even really part of the conversation at this point.

Nope. You don't seem to grasp how the draft works.

As far as "He's doing better than Kasper" One's a center who is learning to play on NA ice, the other is a winger who already had a year on NA ice. Also, Zadina was billed as a scoring winger while Kasper was/is billed as a 2 way center.

Shifting the goal post only highlights how poor your entire premise is.

You're inability to use context is absolutely amazing. Like someone else said, you have to be trolling to be this blatantly ignorant about so many things and to keep hammering on the same disproven bs over and over.

I don't think the word context means what you think it does.

Ignorance is certainly a topic you are quite familiar with.

 

[Dotter]

Like someone else said, you have to be trolling to be this blatantly ignorant about so many things and to keep hammering on the same disproven bs over and over.

Miller Time baited you HARD! Lol!

You do realize his account is part of the Nigerian Troll Farm, don't you?

 

[dekelikekocur]

Zero evidence to contrary has been provided.

You appear to mistake opinion for fact.


this is verifiably false


Meh.
You miss the point.


False.

Lost in the weeds, missing the point.

Irrelevant. This isn't a thread comparing Yzerman to Holland. I'm sure you can find lots of threads to discuss that on the wings board.



Nope. You don't seem to grasp how the draft works.


Shifting the goal post only highlights how poor your entire premise is.

I don't think the word context means what you think it does.

Ignorance is certainly a topic you are quite familiar with.

Zero evidence? Zero Evidence? The fact that Zadina will be out of the league and struggles to make the line up in San Jose is evidence, the fact that almost every pick holland had in six years is out of the league with the exception of a handful or two is evidence, the fact that you can't acknowledge that doesn't reflect there is no evidence, it reflects that you're refusing to see reality.

Anything past that you post is just mindless drivel from someone who lacks knowledge, understanding and the ability to cope with having their world view shattered by reality.

 

[Zarzh]

Where would you put Kasper in a redraft today, and what forward is selected #8?

20s which seems to be around the early consensus. Yurov pretty easily goes 8 or before now but there's a handful of guys who are ahead of him.

 

[raymond23]

Kasper's production is historically low for 19 year olds who played most of their whole season in the AHL, especially those in their DY+2. If he doesn't drastically improve next seasons, his odds of even sticking in the NHL are low.

Historically low? Can you expand on this?

.5ppg as a teenager is historically low?

 

[MNRube]

Posts like his crack me up. You can look at the 2022 draft and see nobody past #8 in the first round is showing anything more spectacular. In fact, Kasper is proving to be the best forward picked from #8-#32 if a redraft was to happen today! Who knows what that 2022 draft looks like in 5 years, but as of today, Yzerman selected the best possible forward available.

Yurov is significantly better. Ohgren showed he can play in the NHL, and that’s after a terrific 2nd half in the SHL. That’s just one team, too

Lekkerimaki and Kemell had better seasons too and I think Nazar has more value at the moment as well. At this point in time, Kasper looks like a bad pick. But like you said, it’s very early to be having this talk

 

[Pavels Dog]

Yurov is significantly better. Ohgren showed he can play in the NHL, and that’s after a terrific 2nd half in the SHL. That’s just one team, too

Lekkerimaki and Kemell had better seasons too and I think Nazar has more value at the moment as well. At this point in time, Kasper looks like a bad pick. But like you said, it’s very early to be having this talk

I hope you are measuring Pellikka this prematurely and putting him top 5 in a re-draft?
No? Surprising.

 

[McJedi]

Seider was asked to go too much since trading away Hronek.

100% true. And far more than Seider is capable of handling.

Their first priority this offseason should be to find a a good LDH in free agency. Overpay if you must.

Then Replace Kane and Perron from within.

 

[MNRube]

I hope you are measuring Pellikka this prematurely and putting him top 5 in a re-draft?
No? Surprising.

You’re a buffoon. Nothing I’ve said has indicated how I feel about ASP. Be better.

 

[Pavels Dog]

You’re a buffoon. Nothing I’ve said has indicated how I feel about ASP. Be better.

So why are you holding Yzerman to the standard that every pick who isn’t trending historically incredible is bad? Kasper looks good/great, but because he’s not breaking records it’s apparently not an acceptable pick from Yzerman.

 

[Miller Time]

Zero evidence? Zero Evidence? The fact that Zadina will be out of the league and struggles to make the line up in San Jose is evidence, the fact that almost every pick holland had in six years is out of the league with the exception of a handful or two is evidence, the fact that you can't acknowledge that doesn't reflect there is no evidence, it reflects that you're refusing to see reality.

Reading comprehension is a requirement to avoid posting nonsense.

Fyi Zadina played 72 games for the Sharks this year.

I don't think words like reality & evidence mean what you think they do.

Miller Time baited you HARD! Lol!

You do realize his account is part of the Nigerian Troll Farm, don't you?

He's baiting himself, doesn't need help from anyone on that front lol

 

[GMR]

Yup. Non playoff roster.

5 offseasons later....

Still a non playoff roster.

If they sneaked in this year, would your posts be any different?