Since 1989-90... give me your best, peak condition, Team Canada, Team USA, or Team Europe

[jigglysquishy]

I don't know why you would put Matthews and Hull together. I don't think they would mesh well at all and have overlapping skill sets.

Having your two best shots on separate lines is a smarter strategy.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

God - Chara and Hedman as a pairing. Is there any room left on the ice for anyone else? That's two big boys.

With Saros saying "No Goals."

USA

G - Barrasso VanBiesbrouck Miller

D - Chelios - Langway
Leetch - Byfuglien
Housley - Iafrate
Q Hughes - Fox

C - Howe (going off the grid baby) - Modano - Eichel - Lafontaine - Matthews

W - Roenick - Tkachuk - Tkachuk -Tkachuk - Kane - Leclair - Hull - Amonte

 

[JackSlater]

Canada

Lemieux Gretzky Yzerman
McDavid Sakic Lindros
Marchand Crosby Bergeron
Kariya Messier MacKinnon
Hull, Toews

Bourque Doughty
Pronger Makar
Stevens MacInnis
Coffey, Keith

Roy
Brodeur
Price


Europe

Ovechkin Forsberg Sundin
Zetterberg Kopitar Jagr
Draisaitl Fedorov Bure
Elias Malkin Kucherov
Datsyuk, Selanne

Lidstrom Zubov
Chara Karlsson
Hedman Konstantinov
Heiskanen, Josi

Hasek
Lundqvist
Vasilevsky

 

[Nick Hansen]

Only me or is there a distinct lack of playmakers from the US compared to the others? Gaudreau and Kane both very good/great. But other than them? Even Lafontaine (468 goals/545 assists) skewed much more towards goalscoring than I thought.

 

[Dingo]

Only me or is there a distinct lack of playmakers from the US compared to the others? Gaudreau and Kane both very good/great. But other than them? Even Lafontaine (468 goals/545 assists) skewed much more towards goalscoring than I thought.

i never thought about it.... i still consider Roenick, Laffy and Modano great playmakers..... but maybe just balanced players.

Craig Janney was real playmaker, lol

@JackSlater

really good teams. i expect no less.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Only me or is there a distinct lack of playmakers from the US compared to the others? Gaudreau and Kane both very good/great. But other than them? Even Lafontaine (468 goals/545 assists) skewed much more towards goalscoring than I thought.

Indeed. Ask older Canadian scouts especially, they'll tell you about players "playing like an American". That concept was recently revived for Cole Eiserman (a 2024 eligible). A lot of streak and score type players.

 

[JackSlater]

Only me or is there a distinct lack of playmakers from the US compared to the others? Gaudreau and Kane both very good/great. But other than them? Even Lafontaine (468 goals/545 assists) skewed much more towards goalscoring than I thought.

It's a weird quirk of American development. Every country has some. Russians produce great offensive forces on the wing but relatively bad defencemen, Swedes produce very well rounded players but lack explosiveness, Canada forces players with natural winger games to centre etc. When making an all time American team a few weeks back I struggled to think of the best American playmaking centre, in the sense of a classic pass first playmaker. Probably Weight?

Indeed. Ask older Canadian scouts especially, they'll tell you about players "playing like an American". That concept was recently revived for Cole Eiserman (a 2024 eligible). A lot of streak and score type players.

A friend of mine, not a scout by any means, always generally referred to American players as skate hard, shoot hard, try hard. A lot of players looking to shoot first and relying on physical attributes for a long time, but a lot more variety now.

 

[Dingo]

Indeed. Ask older Canadian scouts especially, they'll tell you about players "playing like an American". That concept was recently revived for Cole Eiserman (a 2024 eligible). A lot of streak and score type players.

but at least they have generational goalies like Tim Thomas.

 

[Michael Farkas]

but at least they have generational goalies like Tim Thomas.

Keep this up and you're gonna end up with a knuckle sammich, buster...

 

[WarriorofTime]

Indeed. Ask older Canadian scouts especially, they'll tell you about players "playing like an American". That concept was recently revived for Cole Eiserman (a 2024 eligible). A lot of streak and score type players.

That just sounds like bias/prejudice from older guys, lol

 

[Michael Farkas]

A friend of mine, not a scout by any means, always generally referred to American players as skate hard, shoot hard, try hard.

Well, it makes sense...think about the watershed moment for USA Hockey...it was mostly untalented players who played hard...

Jack Hughes is a big deal for American hockey because he finished his development here and he's a super dynamic talent. Guys like Roenick, Modano, Lafontaine...they all went to Canadian major juniors to finish off their development...

Patrick Kane did the same...Seth Jones did the same...Auston Matthews went to Switzerland.

But getting guys to finish their dev here helps to legitimize things a bit more...Eichel stayed, Hughes stayed, etc. The USHL is now much better than the QMJHL at this point. It's all "finishing" stuff in my opinion that was left undone for a while...just speaking to the "variety" part of your post that I didn't quote. The player molds are opening up for the US more than they were in the 80's.

Now, watch major junior standouts start to hop to the USHL...instead of the other way around.

(Sorry to derail)

 

[MadLuke]

Wheeler is an high assist american guy as well.

 

[Nick Hansen]

i never thought about it.... i still consider Roenick, Laffy and Modano great playmakers..... but maybe just balanced players.

Craig Janney was real playmaker, lol

@JackSlater

really good teams. i expect no less.

It's the nature of the game that you'll garner a lot of assists if you're a (very good) center playing beyond 1000 games in the NHL. I don't think of Modano or Roenick as playmakers in the traditional sense - balanced as you say. Roenick has no top ten finishes in assists and Modano has exactly one.

Canada goes for itself but compare to Team Europe - Forsberg, Jagr, Kucherov, Malkin, Draisatl, Datsyuk, Zetterberg - they all have multiple top ten finishes in assists. That said, Fedorov surprised me as an unexpectedly strong goalscoring Russian center. As you can tell, some of these players are before my time...

As for Doug Weight as the most pure American modern center playmaker, yeah, looks like it. The Oates of the States you could say:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

 

[JackSlater]

Well, it makes sense...think about the watershed moment for USA Hockey...it was mostly untalented players who played hard...

Jack Hughes is a big deal for American hockey because he finished his development here and he's a super dynamic talent. Guys like Roenick, Modano, Lafontaine...they all went to Canadian major juniors to finish off their development...

Patrick Kane did the same...Seth Jones did the same...Auston Matthews went to Switzerland.

But getting guys to finish their dev here helps to legitimize things a bit more...Eichel stayed, Hughes stayed, etc. The USHL is now much better than the QMJHL at this point. It's all "finishing" stuff in my opinion that was left undone for a while...just speaking to the "variety" part of your post that I didn't quote. The player molds are opening up for the US more than they were in the 80's.

Now, watch major junior standouts start to hop to the USHL...instead of the other way around.

(Sorry to derail)

I would think of it almost the exact opposite with regard to Hughes. For all intents and purposes he is a Canadian product, he's from Toronto spent his key development years in Toronto. He's not a worse player today if he went to the OHL, probably would have been better prepared going into his rookie season. I guess from an endorsement standpoint it's good that he finished in the United States. The key is the USHL, tying things into the NCAA and waiting until age 18 for that level of competition doesn't make sense in hockey (or some other sports). It's a more valid pipeline now clearly.

Anecdotally I do think that the aura around the 1980 Olympics was a factor in the types of players produced. Visiting the United States, either on a vacation or visiting relatives mainly in the upper Northeast, you're Canadian and people bring up hockey to you... there was definitely a fixation on the blue collar aspects of hockey that went beyond what I was used to. It wasn't something I'd notice in NHL play but watching American teams at the WJC or the iihf world championship over the years it was rough entertainment wise until the 2010s or a little bit before.

I fully admit that this is getting off topic so I will cease after this paragraph but you'd see archetypes in Canada too regionally. It's easy to bring to mind the classic smooth forward from Quebec (or the butterfly goaltenders), or the scoring forwards from Ontario or the defencemen (or gritty forwards) who come from the west.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Hughes is not from Toronto. Don’t even think he’s a dual citizen. His dad worked for the Leafs so he lived there for a bit. Father played at Providence, mother was a U.S. Olympic player. Doubt he or his brothers would have been any worse off if his father worked for the Bruins or Wild. Like Celebrini moving to NorCal.

 

[wetcoast]

Europe
Ovechkin-Malkin-Jagr
Draisaitl-Sundin-Selanne
Panarin-Kopitar-Kucherov
Zetterberg-Fedorov-Mogilny
(Had to cheat a bit, Draisaitl and Zetterberg at LW)

Lidstrom-Karlsson
Chara-Hedman
Gonchar-Zubov

Hasek
Lundqvist

My Best-Carey

Where are Forsberg maalkin and Bure?

 

[wetcoast]

Hughes is not from Toronto. Don’t even think he’s a dual citizen. His dad worked for the Leafs so he lived there for a bit. Father played at Providence, mother was a U.S. Olympic player. Doubt he or his brothers would have been any worse off if his father worked for the Bruins or Wild. Like Celebrini moving to NorCal.

Jim Hughes was with the Maple Leafs organization from 06-07 and Jack was around 5 or 6 then and spent his hockey time in the Toronto area until the 17-18 season.

Jack Hughes also applied and was denied exceptional status from the CHL and then spent another year in the GTA area then went south to the US National team.

He literally spent his formative hockey years in the GTA for what it is worth.

Also he wouldn't be one of my 4 top centers for the USA since 89-90.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Jim Hughes was with the Maple Leafs organization from 06-07 and Jack was around 5 or 6 then and spent his hockey time in the Toronto area until the 17-18 season.

Jack Hughes also applied and was denied exceptional status from the CHL and then spent another year in the GTA area then went south to the US National team.

He literally spent his formative hockey years in the GTA for what it is worth.

Also he wouldn't be one of my 4 top centers for the USA since 89-90.

Wouldn't the USNTDP years be formative as well? Age 16 and 17? Kind of goes to the point. They spent about a decade there. Obviously played hockey there. I think the youngest Hughes played his last few years in Michigan prior to the NTDP. I'm aware they played in GTHL but they're still pretty clearly "real" American. Given they came from a big time hockey family that would have gotten them into hockey, it's hard to imagine they wouldn't have been successful players wherever they happened to be living.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I would think of it almost the exact opposite with regard to Hughes.

You're right. I cannot, for the life of me, get the youth trajectory of Jack Hughes and Rutger McGroarty unscrambled in my brain (both NTDP, both of their respective fathers seem to be everywhere, prospects well known since they were early teens, etc.)...it's just one of those quirks that I'll need that Clockwork Orange treatment to conquer one day haha

Similarly, when someone mentions "Bobby Dollas" and I flip through my mental rolodex, it pulls up highlights of Fredrik Olausson for some reason...both my parents must have been power lines or something...

 

[wetcoast]

Wouldn't the USNTDP years be formative as well? Age 16 and 17? Kind of goes to the point. They spent about a decade there. Obviously played hockey there. I think the youngest Hughes played his last few years in Michigan prior to the NTDP. I'm aware they played in GTHL but they're still pretty clearly "real" American. Given they came from a big time hockey family that would have gotten them into hockey, it's hard to imagine they wouldn't have been successful players wherever they happened to be living.

Sure and technically hughes isn't from toronto but ages 5-16ish are pretty standard for hockey development years right?

It's like calling Brett Hull an american developed player just simply doesn't pass the smell test.

Here is a good story about the development of Jack Hughes.

Hughes, likely No. 1 pick in 2019 NHL Draft, gets big assist from family | NHL.com

Unique upbringing helps center develop skills that are 'off the charts'

www.nhl.com

 

[WarriorofTime]

Sure and technically hughes isn't from toronto but ages 5-16ish are pretty standard for hockey development years right?

As are 16 and 17...

Guess I'm not sure the point here. That the Hughes brothers got the GTHL magic dust sprinkled on them and that's why they're good at Hockey and if they played for Honeybaked for longer they wouldn't be because they'd "play like an American" (bad)? And not the fact that they obviously had great hockey genes from both parents, came from a family that was passionate about hockey and then did all the hockey things to make themselves good at hockey.

I suppose the only "gotcha" here would be if they lived in a place that didn't have hockey rinks and thus lacked access, because then yes, they wouldn't be hockey players. You can be a national of one country and live in another country.

It's like calling Brett Hull an american developed player just simply doesn't pass the smell test.

Bret Hull played at the USNTDP? Although he did play at Minnesota-Duluth, which last I checked is located in the United States and competes in the NCAA, which "N" stands for national and pertains to the United States... so I guess there was a bit of "American developed" there as well than maybe you first thought.

 

[Michael Farkas]

So...uhhh...Hellebuyck over Barrasso and Miller, right? Like...fairly easily given the (time) criteria, no?

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Kozlov - Fedorov - Bure
Forsberg - Sundin - Jagr
Ovechkin - Malkin - Kucherov
Selänne - Koivu - Lehtinen
Hossa

Fetisov - Konstantinov
Lidström - Karlsson
Hedman - Chara
Zubov

Hasek
Lundqvist
Kiprusoff

It’s hard! I tried for a different take where ultimately great players from relative “minnow countries” are getting shafted for… reasons. Kopitar and Draisaitl are obviously great, but I feel as if bringing at least a pair of players from each country might alleviate some of the sense of the team being a gimmicky mishmash, or something.

I’d like to bring a “Russian five” with some grasp of the concept, which is why Fetisov and Konstantinov are there, but it’s hard to figure Kozlov and Larionov onto the team given who I’m forced into leaving behind… Did keep Kozlov for position, in the end, but wasn’t sure if Bure, Mogilny or some next generation guy would do better there.

The Finnish line was great internationally, I think it makes a lot of sense bringing them. If this was a team, I wouldn’t be surprised if that line would be its X factor. I do see a lot of issues, ie. that Ovechkin was bad with Malkin and such. I really liked Jack Slater’s line with OV next to Sundin (would use him as center) and Forsberg, but Jagr with them would also be an absolute pain to play against.

Yeah, especially the Russians were tough to figure out here.

Vasilevskiy is a top 3 goalie here but I went with Kipper, then immediately regretted not bringing Myllys instead.

 

[Overrated]

Kozlov - Fedorov - Bure
Forsberg - Sundin - Jagr
Ovechkin - Malkin - Kucherov
Selänne - Koivu - Lehtinen
Hossa

Fetisov - Konstantinov
Lidström - Karlsson
Hedman - Chara
Zubov

Hasek
Lundqvist
Kiprusoff

It’s hard! I tried for a different take where ultimately great players from relative “minnow countries” are getting shafted for… reasons. Kopitar and Draisaitl are obviously great, but I feel as if bringing at least a pair of players from each country might alleviate some of the sense of the team being a gimmicky mishmash, or something.

I’d like to bring a “Russian five” with some grasp of the concept, which is why Fetisov and Konstantinov are there, but it’s hard to figure Kozlov and Larionov onto the team given who I’m forced into leaving behind… Did keep Kozlov for position, in the end, but wasn’t sure if Bure, Mogilny or some next generation guy would do better there.

The Finnish line was great internationally, I think it makes a lot of sense bringing them. If this was a team, I wouldn’t be surprised if that line would be its X factor. I do see a lot of issues, ie. that Ovechkin was bad with Malkin and such. I really liked Jack Slater’s line with OV next to Sundin (would use him as center) and Forsberg, but Jagr with them would also be an absolute pain to play against.

Yeah, especially the Russians were tough to figure out here.

Vasilevskiy is a top 3 goalie here but I went with Kipper, then immediately regretted not bringing Myllys instead.

Mogilny was clearly vastly superior to Kozlov, especially if we're choosing each player at their peak. I'd honestly choose Kamensky or even 31 year old Makarov ahead of Kozlov.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Mogilny was clearly vastly superior to Kozlov, especially if we're choosing each player at their peak. I'd honestly choose Kamensky or even 31 year old Makarov ahead of Kozlov.

Kamensky crossed my mind yesterday when I began thinking of this, but then I forgot. Makarov too, but I couldn’t find time for his old version considering the depth at RW. Kamensky makes a lot of sense at LW though!