Your unpopular playoff retrospective opinion

[Pancakes]

I dunno when people talk about Sid or OV not being deserving of their Smythes I do think you have to take into account that both of them took the hardest matchups for their respective teams and still managed to produce.

It's not as simple as saying oh Kessel had more goals and points than Crosby, he deserved it. For Kessel to have deserved it I think he would have had to have significantly outproduced Crosby, and he didn't. The point difference between the two was three points. I don't know if that's enough to give it to Kessel when HBK got easier matchups than Sid did.

 

[Lshap]

Oh but I absolutely claim it. I even backed up why I believe so with numbers, reasoning, and logic. You don’t like that and continue to say I “can’t” believe this or that but give nothing other than your opinion. Give something of substance. Your wasting both of our time. You have an opinion, state why they earned their way to the finals over other teams that year.

Here’s Montreal’s combined 2020/21 record versus Arizona, Anaheim, Boston, Buffalo, Carolina, Chicago, Columbus, Colorado, Dallas, Detroit, Florida, LA, Minn., Nashville, NJD, NYI, NYR, Philly, Pittsburgh, SJ, St-Louis, Washington:

0-0-0

On what basis was Montreal 18th versus teams they never played? There’s no valid way to rank points between divisions that didn’t play a single game against each other. It’s a completely invalid argument.

Pointing backwards or forwards to different seasons has zero relevance to the 2020/21 season. Different players, different results.

Montreal's 2020/21 roster included three probable HoF players: Price, Weber, and Perry. They had a formidable, bruising defence with Petry, Edmundson, Romanov, Chiarot (plus Weber, obviously). Their forwards included Suzuki, Caufield, Toffoli, Danault, Lehkonen, Gallagher and Byron (when they were good), plus Perry.

Name a single player whose performance was 'lucky'. Because of the extreme condensed schedule, half the roster was injured in the six weeks before the playoffs. Not surprisingly, when the many injured players came back for round-1, they played very well.

 

[Lshap]

To a degree. But did anyone expect Montreal to roll on to the SCF a few years ago with the roster they had? Would they do it again? To think there was no luck there....I am sorry. That will a tough sell to anyone outside of the Habs fanbase and should be the majority within it as well.

If you don't want to call it luck because you don't like the sound or implication of it, say they were fortunate then. Because they absolutely were. Covid alignment or not.

Anyway....that's all I gotta say

My problem with luck is it's a shallow way to avoid legit evaluation. A team you don't watch goes further than expected – it must be luck. Except it's really not. There are reasons a team does well or not in the playoffs... but you have to be willing to dive a little deeper. Reducing it to 'luck' is like those athletes who thank god for a victory. Nothing wrong with expressing the feeling, as long as you don't seriously believe god loves you more than the other team. Same with luck - over the course of multiple playoff series, you can't seriously believe luck favours one team over the others.

Don't worry - I'm not expecting you to submit a term paper on the subject!

 

[snag]

My problem with luck is it's a shallow way to avoid legit evaluation. A team you don't watch goes further than expected – it must be luck. Except it's really not. There are reasons a team does well or not in the playoffs... but you have to be willing to dive a little deeper. Reducing it to 'luck' is like those athletes who thank god for a victory. Nothing wrong with expressing the feeling, as long as you don't seriously believe god loves you more than the other team. Same with luck - over the course of multiple playoff series, you can't seriously believe luck favours one team over the others.

Don't worry - I'm not expecting you to submit a term paper on the subject!

I'm not. And I won't

 

[Avsfan1921]

Here’s Montreal’s combined 2020/21 record versus Arizona, Anaheim, Boston, Buffalo, Carolina, Chicago, Columbus, Colorado, Dallas, Detroit, Florida, LA, Minn., Nashville, NJD, NYI, NYR, Philly, Pittsburgh, SJ, St-Louis, Washington:

0-0-0

On what basis was Montreal 18th versus teams they never played? There’s no valid way to rank points between divisions that didn’t play a single game against each other. It’s a completely invalid argument.

Pointing backwards or forwards to different seasons has zero relevance to the 2020/21 season. Different players, different results.

Montreal's 2020/21 roster included three probable HoF players: Price, Weber, and Perry. They had a formidable, bruising defence with Petry, Edmundson, Romanov, Chiarot (plus Weber, obviously). Their forwards included Suzuki, Caufield, Toffoli, Danault, Lehkonen, Gallagher and Byron (when they were good), plus Perry.

Name a single player whose performance was 'lucky'. Because of the extreme condensed schedule, half the roster was injured in the six weeks before the playoffs. Not surprisingly, when the many injured players came back for round-1, they played very well.

First bolded:

oh I don’t know what basis, maybe the same as litterally every team in the league? The one that adds up points at the end of the year to dictate placing? They’re fortunate they didn’t play any other teams or else they would have missed entirely.

Second bolded:
Price, Weber and Perry may be hof’ers. They weren’t at that level at that stage in their careers so it doesn’t matter, it’s not a valid argument. Outside of price finding the magic for that run.

In general:
The players you listed are average players at best at that time. You had a very middling team that surpassed expectations. Mainly due to goaltending, and some to do with team structure.

You need to remove the rose colored glasses.

 

[Lshap]

First bolded:

oh I don’t know what basis, maybe the same as litterally every team in the league? The one that adds up points at the end of the year to dictate placing? They’re fortunate they didn’t play any other teams or else they would have missed entirely.

Second bolded:
Price, Weber and Perry may be hof’ers. They weren’t at that level at that stage in their careers so it doesn’t matter, it’s not a valid argument. Outside of price finding the magic for that run.

In general:
The players you listed are average players at best at that time. You had a very middling team that surpassed expectations. Mainly due to goaltending, and some to do with team structure.

You need to remove the rose colored glasses.

Again, Montreal's record against most of the league was 0-0-0. Not a single game. Please prove how they were better or worse than teams they never played.

"Would've/Could've/Should've" is not a valid argument. Neither is "Luck". Comparing teams that never played each other is pure imagination.

As for the players, Price and Weber were playing up to their high standards. They didn't find any magic they didn't already have. They didn't require any luck. In fact, no player played beyond their level. No player was lucky. No individual performance was a one-off spike.

EDIT: To add some critical evaluation, I consider that 2020/21 roster to be a very good but very unsustainable one-off (the combination of players, not how they played). Key rookies and vets were added that year, and key players left the year after. In his final year as GM, Bergevin managed to capture lightning in a bottle with a team built for the playoffs, but it was never designed to last beyond that one season. The Habs' roster wasn't as stacked the year before and then the year after they dumped everyone and began rebuilding, leaving 2020/21 as this odd anomaly.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

First bolded:

oh I don’t know what basis, maybe the same as litterally every team in the league? The one that adds up points at the end of the year to dictate placing? They’re fortunate they didn’t play any other teams or else they would have missed entirely.

Second bolded:
Price, Weber and Perry may be hof’ers. They weren’t at that level at that stage in their careers so it doesn’t matter, it’s not a valid argument. Outside of price finding the magic for that run.

In general:
The players you listed are average players at best at that time. You had a very middling team that surpassed expectations. Mainly due to goaltending, and some to do with team structure.

You need to remove the rose colored glasses.

I'd probably drop the arrogance if I didn't understand basic math and statistics.

Montreal played 6 teams the entire season. That's it. They didn't play against any team in the US and trying to take their record against one sample of teams and extend against another set of teams is both stupid and wrong.

 

[Avsfan1921]

Again, Montreal's record against most of the league was 0-0-0. Not a single game. Please prove how they were better or worse than teams they never played.

"Would've/Could've/Should've" is not a valid argument. Neither is "Luck". Comparing teams that never played each other is pure imagination.

As for the players, Price and Weber were playing up to their high standards. They didn't find any magic they didn't already have. They didn't require any luck. In fact, no player played beyond their level. No player was lucky. No individual performance was a one-off spike.

EDIT: To add some critical evaluation, I consider that 2020/21 roster to be a very good but very unsustainable one-off. Key rookies and vets were added that year, and key players left the year after. In his final year as GM, Bergevin managed to capture lightning in a bottle with a team built for the playoffs, but it was never designed to last beyond that one season. The Habs' roster wasn't as stacked the year before and then the year after they dumped everyone and began rebuilding, leaving 2020/21 as this odd anomaly.

First bolded:
This is a sidebar other lucky run to the finals. But if you can’t objectively look at that division and see how bad it was, you’re choosing to ignore reality. And they STILL barely qualified. “They never played against other teams so they can’t be worse!” shows you can’t be objective.


Second bolded:
Sure the players weren’t playing above expectations, I agree outside of team structure. That’s why they were lucky, they rode price to the finals.

Third bolded:
Sure, call it lightning in a bottle, I’ll call it luck. At this point you are arguing phrasing that means the same thing.

 

[Avsfan1921]

I'd probably drop the arrogance if I didn't understand basic math and statistics.

Montreal played 6 teams the entire season. That's it. They didn't play against any team in the US and trying to take their record against one sample of teams and extend against another set of teams is both stupid and wrong. My retorts are aligned with how I’m interacted with, if you don’t want to read the entire thread that’s fine but I am very cordial when offered the same in return.

I suggest you read the entirety of my time debating this. I’ve tried using math and statistics multiple times. But do continue your condescending retorts.

If I say they finished 18th (they did) I get told I can’t use that because they didn’t play other teams. If I say objectively they were not as good as many of the teams they never faced you’ll say I can’t be objective. If I can’t use stats, and I can’t be objective how do I debate?

This season was an absolute anomaly due to Covid. There’s nothing to use in comparison, so I use the season prior and after to help with the overall picture of this team. ONLY help, but nope the team want the same 1-1 for players. There’s nothing that will hit home for Montreal fans because they don’t like that it’s a possibility that they were lucky.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

First bolded:
This is a sidebar other lucky run to the finals. But if you can’t objectively look at that division and see how bad it was, you’re choosing to ignore reality. And they STILL barely qualified. “They never played against other teams so they can’t be worse!” shows you can’t be objective.


Second bolded:
Sure the players weren’t playing above expectations, I agree outside of team structure. That’s why they were lucky, they rode price to the finals.

Third bolded:
Sure, call it lightning in a bottle, I’ll call it luck. At this point you are arguing phrasing that means the same thing.

I think 2 things can be true. Montreal was lucky to be there and deserved to be in the finals.

Edmonton for example 100% deserved to win last game but they don’t win without being lucky, multiple posts, lucky pucks that hit skinner, bounces etc.

I just think it’s a pointless distinction because every team needs luck to make the finals or win

 

[GOilers88]

My problem with luck is it's a shallow way to avoid legit evaluation. A team you don't watch goes further than expected – it must be luck. Except it's really not. There are reasons a team does well or not in the playoffs... but you have to be willing to dive a little deeper. Reducing it to 'luck' is like those athletes who thank god for a victory. Nothing wrong with expressing the feeling, as long as you don't seriously believe god loves you more than the other team. Same with luck - over the course of multiple playoff series, you can't seriously believe luck favours one team over the others.

Don't worry - I'm not expecting you to submit a term paper on the subject!

I understand where you're coming from, but it really was based on luck. That luck being the formatting of the bubble which enabled a team that lost 58% of their games to even make the playoffs. There's like no other circumstances where a team could have a season like that and qualify for the post season.

Everything they did once they were in however, I give them nothing but full credit for. They earned everything they got that year resulting in a trip to the finals. But they likely would have never even come close to being there were it not for a once in a lifetime covid season.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I understand where you're coming from, but it really was based on luck. That luck being the formatting of the bubble which enabled a team that lost 58% of their games to even make the playoffs. There's like no other circumstances where a team could have a season like that and qualify for the post season.

Everything they did once they were in however, I give them nothing but full credit for. They earned everything they got that year resulting in a trip to the finals. But they likely would have never even come close to being there were it not for a once in a lifetime covid season.

COVID works both ways though. It caused them to have to play 25 games in 42 days with no practice and wrecked them with injuries. It's not supernatural that they got a bunch of guys back in that week off before the playoffs.

I suggest you read the entirety of my time debating this. I’ve tried using math and statistics multiple times. But do continue your condescending retorts.

If I say they finished 18th (they did) I get told I can’t use that because they didn’t play other teams. If I say objectively they were not as good as many of the teams they never faced you’ll say I can’t be objective. If I can’t use stats, and I can’t be objective how do I debate?

This season was an absolute anomaly due to Covid. There’s nothing to use in comparison, so I use the season prior and after to help with the overall picture of this team. ONLY help, but nope the team want the same 1-1 for players. There’s nothing that will hit home for Montreal fans because they don’t like that it’s a possibility that they were lucky.

You keep bringing up that they finished 18th continuously without realizing that finishing 18th is meaningless if they didn't play in a 31-team league, which they didn't. They played in a 7-team league to gain access to a tournament where they'd only play a foreign team in the semis, which they did and won.

In short, you've been wrong the entire time.

 

[GOilers88]

COVID works both ways though. It caused them to have to play 25 games in 42 days with no practice and wrecked them with injuries. It's not supernatural that they got a bunch of guys back in that week off before the playoffs.

I mean sure, but covid wiped a bunch of guys out that year. I don't think you'd ever see a team lose almost 60% of their games and still get to qualify for playoff hockey. They just happened to be lucky that the league came up with a one off season that is unlike anything the NHL has ever or likely will ever see.

I want to reiterate that I give them nothing but credit for everything they did during the playoffs, but I think they were lucky as hell to even be there in the first place.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I mean sure, but covid wiped a bunch of guys out that year. I don't think you'd ever see a team lose almost 60% of their games and still get to qualify for playoff hockey. They just happened to be lucky that the league came up with a one off season that is unlike anything the NHL has ever or likely will ever see.

Lucky or fluke would include an advantage that other teams did not get. They didn't. They played and qualified under the same rules as everyone else. For reference, the Flames of that year missed and then won their regular division the next year (and qualified in the season before COVID). Does that mean they were 'unlucky' during the COVID year?

 

[Lshap]

First bolded:
This is a sidebar other lucky run to the finals. But if you can’t objectively look at that division and see how bad it was, you’re choosing to ignore reality. And they STILL barely qualified. “They never played against other teams so they can’t be worse!” shows you can’t be objective.


Second bolded:
Sure the players weren’t playing above expectations, I agree outside of team structure. That’s why they were lucky, they rode price to the finals.

Third bolded:
Sure, call it lightning in a bottle, I’ll call it luck. At this point you are arguing phrasing that means the same thing.

Luck implies an outcome based on outside forces, beyond planning or innate ability. Not the case here at all. Not a single player's performance was enhanced by luck, not a single game was helped along by luck, no player accidentally lucked their way onto the roster. Luck had nothing to do with good & great players playing up to their standards during the 2020/21 playoffs.

Lightning in a bottle isn't luck, it means that roster wasn't built to last. No mystical outside forces brought those players together. Bergevin did. He just wasn't a good enough GM to keep his good teams together long enough.

 

[GOilers88]

Lucky or fluke would include an advantage that other teams did not get. They didn't. They played and qualified under the same rules as everyone else. For reference, the Flames of that year missed and then won their regular division the next year. Does that mean they were 'unlucky' during the COVID year?

A good season is a good season. The Habs didn't have a good season at all that year. They were a below .500 team that was lucky to benefit from the bubble season which allowed a team that would not normally make the playoffs to make the playoffs. Once they got in, they killed it.

The Flames weren't a good team that year, and missed, no luck, good or bad there. They were a very good team the next year, and won the division, while playing under a normal NHL season and schedule. To me it's different.

We can agree to disagree, it's fine.

 

[Avsfan1921]

COVID works both ways though. It caused them to have to play 25 games in 42 days with no practice and wrecked them with injuries. It's not supernatural that they got a bunch of guys back in that week off before the playoffs.



You keep bringing up that they finished 18th continuously without realizing that finishing 18th is meaningless if they didn't in a 31-team league, which they didn't. They played in a 7-team league to gain access to a tournament where they'd only play a foreign team in the semis, which they did and won.

In short, you've been wrong the entire time.

First paragraph:

Finding obscure stats isn’t my forte but from a quick google search this shows them in bottom third with man games lost.

Seconds paragraph:
Ok, I’ll stop with the 18th statically in the league since you clearly don’t like it (that is literally what they were). Does it help if I say they finished 8 more losses than wins within their division? One that is largely considered to be the weakest that year? Or is that too objective?

 

[Spring in Fialta]

First paragraph:

View attachment 875360
Finding obscure stats isn’t my forte but from a quick google search this shows them in bottom third with man games lost.

Seconds paragraph:
Ok, I’ll stop with the 18th statically in the league since you clearly don’t like it (that is literally what they were). Does it help if I say they finished 8 games below .500 in their division? One that is largely considered to be the weakest that year? Or is that too objective?

What does man games lost have to do with having to play in 25 games in 42 days? Their schedule got squeezed because of COVID restrictions they got hit with mid-year. Just because guys aren't out the whole year doesn't mean playing so many games (across different time zones btw) in such a tight window doesn't have an effect.

At any rate, I don't even think they would have been a particularly great team even healthy. But calling their run 'luck' is just dumb as hell and using league records to do so is even dumber. 2021 Habs not being a great team doesn't validate every dumb opinion or poor use of statistics about their run and season.

 

[Avsfan1921]

What does man games lost have to do with having to play in 25 games in 42 days? Their schedule got squeezed because of COVID restrictions they got hit with mid-year. Just because guys aren't out the whole year doesn't mean playing so many games (across different time zones btw) in such a tight window doesn't have an effect.

Just going with what you said, that it “wrecked them with injuries”. As far as the condensed schedule, differing timezones, covid restrictions, etc. all teams dealt with that for the most part. This is not special to Mtl.

At any rate, I don't even think they would have been a particularly great team even healthy. But calling their run 'luck' is just dumb as hell and using league records to do so is even dumber. 2021 Habs not being a great team doesn't validate every dumb opinion or poor use of statistics about their run and season.

I switched it to 8 more losses than wins, within division, for you. Also, my observations of that team are what led me to believe they were lucky, not the stats. I originally tried saying that they played well defensively and price took the rest of the load but that wasn’t an observation habs fans were going to allow. So I tried a combination of observations and stats but alas that isn’t sufficient either.

 

[FerrisRox]

Definitely have IMO but on another thought

I Always felt like if Toronto played in the west like in the 90s, they'd already have a cup by now lol

The Leafs were in the West in the 90's and they were never a real threat to win a Cup.

They moved to the Eastern Conference for the 1998-99 season.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Nazem Kadri cost the Leafs the series against Boston in 2019 when he got himself suspended.

He arguably cost them in 2018 too but DEFINITELY 2019

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Just going with what you said, that it “wrecked them with injuries”. As far as the condensed schedule, differing timezones, covid restrictions, etc. all teams dealt with that for the most part. This is not special to Mtl.


I switched it to 8 more losses than wins, within division, for you. Also, my observations of that team are what led me to believe they were lucky, not the stats. I originally tried saying that they played well defensively and price took the rest of the load but that wasn’t an observation habs fans were going to allow. So I tried a combination of observations and stats but alas that isn’t sufficient either.

If you're going with the eye-test, then yeah saying 'They did well defensively and Price took care of the rest' is dumb as hell. The closest series they played was Toronto, which was a 50-50 series (actually thinking back I'd give the edge to Toronto) until game 7 where Montreal dominated from start to finish at both ends of the ice, Winnipeg got obliterated and Vegas played alright but were outplayed for the vast majority of the series. They could barely generate anything that wasn't a slap shot off a draw.

 

[Lshap]

@Avsfan1921 - FYI, this is a qualitative look at Man Games Lost for 2020/21. It factors in the importance of WHO was out, not just how many total games were lost. Obviously, losing Price, Weber, Danault, Gallagher, etc. has a bigger impact on wins/losses than losing bottom-six players. This model isn't perfect – it measures cap-hit as a proxy for star players – but it gives a reasonably accurate overview on which teams were most affected by injury that year.

EDIT: Shit, I screwed up the year!! 2020/21 Montreal had one of the highest hits in goalie injuries (Price was out for about 2 months) and a lot of their injuries happened at the same time, but overall they were about mid-pack in injuries. Apologies!

 

[Avsfan1921]

If you're going with the eye-test, then yeah saying 'They did well defensively and Price took care of the rest' is dumb as hell. The closest series they played was Toronto, which was a 50-50 series (actually thinking back I'd give the edge to Toronto) until game 7 where Montreal dominated from start to finish at both ends of the ice, Winnipeg got obliterated and Vegas played alright but were outplayed for the vast majority of the series. They could barely generate anything that wasn't a slap shot off a draw.

By my eye test, they were outplayed by Toronto, were better than Winnipeg and were outplayed by Vegas.

 

[aufheben]

Apparently it’s an unpopular opinion that the 2023-24 Carolina Hurricanes were a good team.

For me I don't care what people think. Kreider running into Carey Price was part of his plan to make the Rangers win.
Then habs collapsed with Tokarski in the net

Chris Kreider is gonna become a bedtime story in Quebec to scare the shit out of kids who misbehave.