World cup is better than Olympics

[BruinLVGA]

If reading English does that to you, that explains a lot. Nice talking to ya. And good luck!

Incoherent ramblings are Incoherent ramblings. Good luck to you too.

 

[JackSlater]

One benefit for this tournament is that USA is out so early. TSN said that USA going out early could be a factor in USA not agreeing to give away its young players net time. Seems likely since USA wasn't big on the idea this time.

 

[BruinLVGA]

I would only add that the all-star game puts zero strain on the players, they just skate around and have fun, it's basically another rest day for them which is worlds apart from playing competitive games against the best national teams in the world. The difference is obvious to anyone who has watched the games but you're talking to someone who by his own admission has refused to watch past Canada/World Cups on principle. Despite this, he insists he's an authority on the subject and that it's completely logical to compare these tournaments to all-star games. Good luck getting through to him, lord knows I've tried.

This is a lie that you have spread again and again & part of you stalking me in threads (I gave you a chance on this one and you are slipping again).
I already reported you once for this and they cancelled your posts. Wanna go down the same avenue again? You know what will happen, don't you?

 

[Nino33]

For me personally I don't connect the NHL players and the Olympics as being as important as it seems some do...I actually recall more Olympics without NHL players than with! (it's an age thing I'd suspect...the NHL's only been in the Olympics since 1998, and my "hockey memory" goes back to 1976); referencing the importance of the history of the Olympics in reference to NHL players playing in them makes no sense to me, as for the first 15 times Olympic Gold was given out NHL players weren't involved

Olympic hockey is incredibly boring (IMO), interest in the Olympics in general is waning (and cities don't want to host them anymore), so I'm not convinced at all that Olympic hockey is all that important or matters much in the promotion of the game (and I'm not at all a believer that "bigger is better" so I don't see a need to promote the game to have more Nations playing/interested in hockey...if they do they do, if not that's fine too)

As they saying goes, "your mileage may vary"

 

[Gary Nylund]

This is a lie that you have spread again and again & part of you stalking me in threads (I gave you a chance on this one and you are slipping again).
I already reported you once for this and they cancelled your posts. Wanna go down the same avenue again? You know what will happen, don't you?

Stalking? We had a debate in a thread months ago, then I had no interaction with you at all for a very long time (couple of months), then when I responded to one of your posts again you accused me of stalking you. I respond to one post in a couple of months and according to you that's stalking. Now you're doing it again. What's the matter with you?

As far as what you said in our previous discussion, I assume it's all the in the archives. so I have no trouble standing by what I said.

Edit - I'll tell ya what, I don't feel like searching for a months old thread in the archives especially when I can't even remember the thread title so I'll make you an offer in the interest of peace: Go on record right now saying that comparing all-star games to past Canada/World Cups is nonsensical because the quality of play in these tournaments has been very high, more like the Olympics and we'll call it a day and agree to agree for a change. Fair enough?

 

[Gary Nylund]

For me personally I don't connect the NHL players and the Olympics as being as important as it seems some do...I actually recall more Olympics without NHL players than with! (it's an age thing I'd suspect...the NHL's only been in the Olympics since 1998, and my "hockey memory" goes back to 1976); referencing the importance of the history of the Olympics in reference to NHL players playing in them makes no sense to me, as for the first 15 times Olympic Gold was given out NHL players weren't involved

Olympic hockey is incredibly boring (IMO), interest in the Olympics in general is waning (and cities don't want to host them anymore), so I'm not convinced at all that Olympic hockey is all that important or matters much in the promotion of the game (and I'm not at all a believer that "bigger is better" so I don't see a need to promote the game to have more Nations playing/interested in hockey...if they do they do, if not that's fine too)

As they saying goes, "your mileage may vary"

Some good points here IMO. The Olympics are indeed going downhill and I don't see Olympic hockey as being some holy grail to strive for either. I've also never understood this idea some people seem to have that it's the responsibility of the NHL to get other Nations playing hockey - I agree with you 100%, if they do great, if not, that's fine too.

 

[Dris]

I don't see Olympic hockey as being some holy grail to strive for either.

How come? (Elaboration please)

I've also never understood this idea some people seem to have that it's the responsibility of the NHL to get other Nations playing hockey - I agree with you 100%, if they do great, if not, that's fine too.

If you compare with other sports, that is one of the prime roles that you expect from governing bodies, and NHL and IIHF are the largest ones in the sports. That amplifies markets and enriches the sport.

Rugby Union worlwide or Football (the original one) are perfect examples in Asia (Premier League, La Liga, Calcio also do a big contribution to expand the sport..and markets).

 

[Gary Nylund]

How come? (Elaboration please)

If you compare with other sports, that is one of the prime roles that you expect from governing bodies, and NHL and IIHF are the largest ones in the sports. That amplifies markets and enriches the sport.

Rugby Union worlwide or Football (the original one) are perfect examples in Asia (Premier League, La Liga, Calcio also do a big contribution to expand the sport..and markets).

How come - I just don't have the Olympics on a pedestal, too much corruption and too many scandals for it to be a holy grail for me. Previous Canada/World Cups have been awesome, better than the Olympic hockey tourneys. JMHO.

I don't know anything about Rugby so I can't comment on that. I also don't see the NHL as a "governing body", the only thing they govern is themselves. The NHL does do a lot for the sport though just by existing as the hockey played in the NHL is vastly superior to the hockey played anywhere else.

Edit - as far as enriching the sport, isn't that more in the IOC's ballpark? I have no idea why more people aren't taking them to task for saying they won't cover the costs for NHL participation. Just an incredibly stupid move on their part and for some reason, people are pissed at the NHL instead. The mind boggles.

 

[ACC1224]

The only advantages the world cup has over the Olympics are a) no shootouts in elimination games, and b) a best-of-three final

Biggest one is the ice surface. Hockey will always be better on the smaller ice.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Biggest one is the ice surface. Hockey will always be better on the smaller ice.

NHL referees are also the best in the business. But no shootouts is the biggest in my book, makes the Olympic hockey tournament somewhat of a gimmick and hard to take seriously.

 

[jj cale]

Well, so far it has been better then sochi in terms of quality games.

It will never have the cache of the olympics but we cannot deny the quality of hockey has been better then 2014.

if people won't watch it just because it isn't the olys.........that is there loss.

 

[BruinLVGA]

Stalking? We had a debate in a thread months ago, then I had no interaction with you at all for a very long time (couple of months), then when I responded to one of your posts again you accused me of stalking you. I respond to one post in a couple of months and according to you that's stalking. Now you're doing it again. What's the matter with you?

As far as what you said in our previous discussion, I assume it's all the in the archives. so I have no trouble standing by what I said.

Edit - I'll tell ya what, I don't feel like searching for a months old thread in the archives especially when I can't even remember the thread title so I'll make you an offer in the interest of peace: Go on record right now saying that comparing all-star games to past Canada/World Cups is nonsensical because the quality of play in these tournaments has been very high, more like the Olympics and we'll call it a day and agree to agree for a change. Fair enough?

I never said anything about the level of play of past Canada Cups / World Cups in comparison to the level of play at the All Star Game. As a matter of fact, until now, I never said anything at all about the level of play of past Canada Cups / World Cups. They simply don't interest me. At all. Do you realize that there's pretty much no North American hockey shown here now? Imagine how much of those tournaments have they shown here? Zero.

However, I said that: a) generally speaking, tournaments that happen in early September don't feature players at their peak, because they're coming from several months off. Tournaments in mid season are way better for that... b) invitational tournaments are not much more than highly polished exhibitions, as in there isn't much at stake and for that reason, not all players might give their all. I highly doubt that because the USA got eliminated at this edition that there's droves of fans in the USA losing sleep. Same in Europe.

Of course past Canada Cups / World Cups are vastly superior to the All Star Game. The All Star Game is utterly useless, pretty much any serious hockey in any professional league in the world is superior to the All Star Game. The darn Spengler Cup is superior to the All Star Game. NHL pre season games are superior to the All Star Game. Any meaningful pro game in any league or tournament is better than the All Star Game. Got it?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Well, so far it has been better then sochi in terms of quality games.

It will never have the cache of the olympics but we cannot deny the quality of hockey has been better then 2014.

if people won't watch it just because it isn't the olys.........that is there loss.

This is true. Cache, and more people watching. Those are the only things the Olympics have over previous Canada/World Cups (unless I'm missing something). I personally prefer to have better quality overall tournament - no shootouts, 3 game final, better refereeing, smaller ice surface etc. You can keep your cache and get the whole world to watch for all I care, give me the better product on the ice and I'm a happy camper.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I never said anything about the level of play of past Canada Cups / World Cups in comparison to the level of play at the All Star Game. As a matter of fact, until now, I never said anything at all about the level of play of past Canada Cups / World Cups. They simply don't interest me. At all. Do you realize that there's pretty much no North American hockey shown here now? Imagine how much of those tournaments have they shown here? Zero.

However, I said that: a) generally speaking, tournaments that happen in early September don't feature players at their peak, because they're coming from several months off. Tournaments in mid season are way better for that... b) invitational tournaments are not much more than highly polished exhibitions, as in there isn't much at stake and for that reason, not all players might give their all. I highly doubt that because the USA got eliminated at this edition that there's droves of fans in the USA losing sleep. Same in Europe.

Of course past Canada Cups / World Cups are vastly superior to the All Star Game. The All Star Game is utterly useless, pretty much any serious hockey in any professional league in the world is superior to the All Star Game. The darn Spengler Cup is superior to the All Star Game. NHL pre season games are superior to the All Star Game. Any meaningful pro game in any league or tournament is better than the All Star Game. Got it?

a) I can see why one might think that but it's a myth that's been disproven and if you had actually watched the previous Canada/World Cups, then you'd know this. Many people consider the 1987 tournament to be the best hockey they've ever seen just as one example.

b) Wrong again. If motivation was an issue like you say, then the level of play couldn't be as high as it has been. And again, the only reason you are blissfully unaware of how wrong you are is that you haven't been watching the games.

It's impossible for you to speak with any authority whatsoever on hockey games you haven't even seen, how do you not see this?

I think I suggested to you in that other thread months ago - get DVD's of the 3 game Canada/Russia final in 1987 and watch them. Once you do that, if you know anything at all about hockey then you'll understand that the rest of the hockey world isn't wrong to think this was amazing hockey, it's you who's wrong to think that it wasn't. This despite the fact that is was played in September and you thinking that the players have nothing to play for. Trust me, if you do this you'll be happy you did. And you don't even have to come back here to admit you're wrong, no-one will ever know.

You're the only person I've ever encountered who doesn't think the hockey played in previous Canada/World Cups was of the highest quality. Of course you're also the only person I've ever encountered who has such a strong opinion on this despite not having seen the games. Yes you insist that the rest of the hockey world is wrong, and you're right. Amazing stuff.

 

[Dris]

How come - I just don't have the Olympics on a pedestal, too much corruption and too many scandals for it to be a holy grail for me. Previous Canada/World Cups have been awesome, better than the Olympic hockey tourneys. JMHO.

Fair enough. But still is the universal competition with values and repercussions going beyond the boundaries of sport. You cannot find that anywhere else, hence it is still the biggest competition there is in most sports

I don't know anything about Rugby so I can't comment on that. I also don't see the NHL as a "governing body", the only thing they govern is themselves. The NHL does do a lot for the sport though just by existing as the hockey played in the NHL is vastly superior to the hockey played anywhere else.

Good point. However, there is an issue with your argumentation. And that is lockouts, which periodically happen in the NHL because still is run as an small sport with small markets in comparison to Football, Rugby, Basketball and even bloody cricket (main sport in India and Pakistan), and which cannot sustain the salaries of so many stars. In order for that, you would need new markets. And for that in turn you need expanding the game.

So this is nothing about what are the logical competences of NHL. This is about the economic sustainability of the league (and for that I include KHL, which seems to be doing much more to reach new markets than NHL).

Edit - as far as enriching the sport, isn't that more in the IOC's ballpark? I have no idea why more people aren't taking them to task for saying they won't cover the costs for NHL participation. Just an incredibly stupid move on their part and for some reason, people are pissed at the NHL instead. The mind boggles.

I think that aim should be what every fan should want to see (who are the ones who fund the sport at the end of the day through tickets, TV rights, merchandising, etc). Who does it at the executive level is another matter

Thanks for the discussion

 

[Mr Positive]

I wonder how fans in the 'lesser' countries of Europe feel about this team Europe thing. It must be odd to have a team that is in the semis. Personally, I recall when a Canadian played for the UK in the World Cup of soccer (he had a UK parent or something) it was very exciting and I liked it more than following Canadian soccer. We rarely even qualify, but through the UK I was able to cheer for a Canadian deep into a tournament and not just in qualifying matches.

I know that Olympics are a more pure form of nationalistic expression than the WCH, but there is still a nationalistic appeal to this tournament and I don't feel these wildcard teams poison that appeal, and it might actually enhance it.

 

[Xokkeu]

I wonder how fans in the 'lesser' countries of Europe feel about this team Europe thing. It must be odd to have a team that is in the semis. Personally, I recall when a Canadian played for the UK in the World Cup of soccer (he had a UK parent or something) it was very exciting and I liked it more than following Canadian soccer. We rarely even qualify, but through the UK I was able to cheer for a Canadian deep into a tournament and not just in qualifying matches.

I know that Olympics are a more pure form of nationalistic expression than the WCH, but there is still a nationalistic appeal to this tournament and I don't feel these wildcard teams poison that appeal, and it might actually enhance it.

Most Canadian soccer fans I know hated Owen Hargreaves

 

[Gary Nylund]

Fair enough. But still is the universal competition with values and repercussions going beyond the boundaries of sport. You cannot find that anywhere else, hence it is still the biggest competition there is in most sports

Weeeeeeeeeell ... values etc. beyond the sport, I'm not so sure that's exclusive to the Olympics but OK, not worth debating IMO. Biggest competition though, by most definitions of biggest sure, absolutely true.

All I meant was that as a hockey fan who wants to see great hockey, the hockey is the most important thing to me and as far as that goes, previous Canada/World Cups have been every bit as good and in some respects even better than the Olympics. So if all we had was those tournaments and no Olympics, I would be nowhere near as upset as some other people would be.

Good point. However, there is an issue with your argumentation. And that is lockouts, which periodically happen in the NHL because still is run as an small sport with small markets in comparison to Football, Rugby, Basketball and even bloody cricket (main sport in India and Pakistan), and which cannot sustain the salaries of so many stars. In order for that, you would need new markets. And for that in turn you need expanding the game.

I don't foresee a time when the NHL expands beyond NA, not in my lifetime anyway.

So this is nothing about what are the logical competences of NHL. This is about the economic sustainability of the league (and for that I include KHL, which seems to be doing much more to reach new markets than NHL).

I think that aim should be what every fan should want to see (who are the ones who fund the sport at the end of the day through tickets, TV rights, merchandising, etc). Who does it at the executive level is another matter

Thanks for the discussion

I confess I don't know much about the KHL. I'm not too concerned about new markets either, I really don't see hockey ever becoming a big thing south of the equator. I do hope the IOC comes to their senses and pays what they were paying before, the majority of hockey fans (myself included) want to see NHL players at the Olympics.

No need to thank me. I'm just killing some time discussing something I love and it is always nice to do so with people with similar interests who are able to have a civil discussion.

 

[jj cale]

This is true. Cache, and more people watching. Those are the only things the Olympics have over previous Canada/World Cups (unless I'm missing something). I personally prefer to have better quality overall tournament - no shootouts, 3 game final, better refereeing, smaller ice surface etc. You can keep your cache and get the whole world to watch for all I care, give me the better product on the ice and I'm a happy camper.

I'm with you there, all for a better product.

 

[Analyst365]

I'm with you there, all for a better product.

That's pretty much it right there. For some the game is a lifetime of memories including heartaches and national pride.

For others they just a good product they can chew on and forget about, like a good chicken wing.

 

[Gary Nylund]

That's pretty much it right there. For some the game is a lifetime of memories including heartaches and national pride.

For others they just a good product they can chew on and forget about, like a good chicken wing.

Chew on and forget about WTF? 1987 had the product I've ever seen and I'll remember it (with pride) as long as I live (that's just one example, there are several others). I'll also never forget the heartache of 1981. Now 1998 however, there's a lot less heartache involved there for me at least because deciding a hockey tournament via shootout is a bit of a joke.

If some people remember tournaments just because they're Olympic tournaments and the quality of "the product" is secondary, good for them. Seems strange to me but to each their own I guess.

 

[WTFMAN99]

NHL rules and small ice with NHL refs but basically grabbing all the countries etc would basically be the cherry on the cake and cement WCOH over Olympics.

Big ice hockey is slow and too much of a trap game, not fast paced enough.

I have loved the Team NA and team Europe has been alright too but I do like having teams like the Swiss, Slovakia, Germany etc.

 

[gwh]

NHL rules and small ice with NHL refs but basically grabbing all the countries etc would basically be the cherry on the cake and cement WCOH over Olympics.

This tournament has an internet footprint about size of a regular season double header. Nobody is watching this. KHL season start is massive comparing to this tourney.

Or did you mean cementing the legs in mafia style so the sinking to bottom happens faster?

 

[Jonas1235]

isn't the difference just size of ice and no bad teams?

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

I've thought the whole World Cup, minus the U23's, was a dud and boring.