WNBA to Toronto? UPD name reveal: Tempo. Serena minority owner

[LadyStanley]

Definitely seems there's demand

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[GKJ]

Do it.

 

[KevFu]

The WNBA is gonna rapidly expand, like MLS did.

They said they were going to explore it, and they got over 100 inquiries from like 75 cities.

 

[OG6ix]

The WNBA is gonna rapidly expand, like MLS did.

They said they were going to explore it, and they got over 100 inquiries from like 75 cities.

I can see this but do they have the talent pool? MLS, while not a top league in Soccer still has access to some decent players due to the amount of male Soccer players around the world.

 

[Roadrage]

WNBA Toronto is just a matter of time. My opinion is they should be ticketed for next round of expansion.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

It's more of a surprise that they haven't expanded up there by now.

 

[Bostonzamboni]

I'm surprised Boston doesn't have a team. And I've not heard any talk about the possibility, unless I've completely missed talk about it.

Yes, it's close to the Connecticut Sun who play at Mohegan Sun casino, I believe. But not that close, probably at least 90 miles. We never hear talk about the Sun in Boston....or UConn men's or women's basketball despite great success. It's all pro sports on local sports talk radio in Boston.

 

[KevFu]

I can see this but do they have the talent pool? MLS, while not a top league in Soccer still has access to some decent players due to the amount of male Soccer players around the world.

Uh, absolutely. The talent pool is PUSHING expansion. They have waaaaaaaay more talent than teams. The WNBA is probably the hardest league to make it into on the planet, in any sport.

It's only about 135 players. The minimum is 11 roster spots, the max is 12, and most teams have 11.

FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICKS don't get guaranteed contracts, and picks #8-12 overall are routinely cut in training camp.

Think about the #13 overall pick for a second: 15 of 23 WNBA #13 picks never made it to a WNBA roster simply because there was no room for them to join the team.

In the NBA, that's a lottery pick. Their last 23 years, ALL their #13 overall picks played at least three season in the NBA (or are playing now for 2022, 2023). Donovan Mitchell, Devin Booker, KOBE BRYANT, Richard Jefferson, Jalen Rose and KARL MALONE are all #13 overall picks (HOF in Caps).

One year, a WNBA team traded a ton of veterans for draft picks, and their draft picks could actually make the team! Actually given a chance to play, a player picked #32 overall went on to make three WNBA All-Star games. But normally, All Americans can't get a chance to play in the WNBA.

There's WAY more talent than roster spots.

 

[KevFu]

I'm surprised Boston doesn't have a team. And I've not heard any talk about the possibility, unless I've completely missed talk about it.

Yes, it's close to the Connecticut Sun who play at Mohegan Sun casino, I believe. But not that close, probably at least 90 miles. We never hear talk about the Sun in Boston....or UConn men's or women's basketball despite great success. It's all pro sports on local sports talk radio in Boston.

I think part of that is exactly why though... Boston isn't starved for pro sports success.

 

[GKJ]

The WNBA would have as many teams as every other league had there ever been the willingness to invest in it. There are a lot of major markets that do not have teams that should, and others that have and saw the league leave.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

How is a league that is being subsidized by the NBA legitimately expanding?

I watched quite a few games last year (Bella Donne!) and there were a lot of empty seats.

Unless I missed something re: their economics this completely baffles me, especially when they share the revenues and there's no guarantee expansion will increase the revenues in proportion.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

It's more of a surprise that they haven't expanded up there by now.

Is Toronto enough of a basketball city to support two basketball teams (even in opposite seasons)? It's a large city but seems iffy to me given the track record of the other teams.

 

[daver]

How is a league that is being subsidized by the NBA legitimately expanding?

I watched quite a few games last year (Bella Donne!) and there were a lot of empty seats.

Unless I missed something re: their economics this completely baffles me, especially when they share the revenues and there's no guarantee expansion will increase the revenues in proportion.

You aren't supposed to ask questions like this. Each empty seat symbolizes the bias against women's sports. If they just invested in the sport like they do with men's sports, then the money would be rolling in.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Getting into the larger Canadian cities would be a good move by the WNBA. Hockey is asleep at the switch and seems totally incapable of getting a women's league off the ground that anyone cares about. Soccer is struggling with the one men's pro league (CPL), never mind a women's league.

Curling is probably the most popular pro women's sport, and that's something that is probably concentrated mainly in rural areas and smaller cities. Jennifer Jones would get mobbed on the streets of Moose Jaw but I doubt anyone would recognize her on Yonge Street in Toronto. So there is certainly an opportunity for a women's pro league that has its act together.

 

[KevFu]

How is a league that is being subsidized by the NBA legitimately expanding?

I watched quite a few games last year (Bella Donne!) and there were a lot of empty seats.

Unless I missed something re: their economics this completely baffles me, especially when they share the revenues and there's no guarantee expansion will increase the revenues in proportion.

Really? MLS is growing rapidly because it's a "major league" in its sport on this continent, so the revenues are there in terms of fan support and tickets. (TV not so much)...

But the PAYROLLS are one-sixth the cost of fielding an NHL team; and 1/12th an NBA/MLB team. So investors want in. they can get "Major League" revenue at "Minor League expenses." That's what's fueling growth.

Now look at the WNBA... the payroll is $15.5 million. Not per team, for the WHOLE LEAGUE TOTAL. It's $1.3 million per team.

You've got a league that's on ABC/ESPN, and the entire cost to run a team business is less than the price of a utility infielder or third-line winger?

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Really? MLS is growing rapidly because it's a "major league" in its sport on this continent, so the revenues are there in terms of fan support and tickets. (TV not so much)...

But the PAYROLLS are one-sixth the cost of fielding an NHL team; and 1/12th an NBA/MLB team. So investors want in. they can get "Major League" revenue at "Minor League expenses." That's what's fueling growth.

Now look at the WNBA... the payroll is $15.5 million. Not per team, for the WHOLE LEAGUE TOTAL. It's $1.3 million per team.

You've got a league that's on ABC/ESPN, and the entire cost to run a team business is less than the price of a utility infielder or third-line winger?

Again- cost that is subsidized by the NBA.

If the NBA withdrew it's support, the WNBA would likely collapse. It's not sustaining itself.

College players are electing to stay in college over joining the WNBA because there is more endorsement money in playing college ball than WNBA ball.

As I said; I watch some games so I'm not wishing them to crash but I just don't see how a league struggling as much as it is is talking about expansion.

 

[KevFu]

Getting into the larger Canadian cities would be a good move by the WNBA. Hockey is asleep at the switch and seems totally incapable of getting a women's league off the ground that anyone cares about.

This is extremely annoying to me. The operations expense of women's hockey goes from very large (renting everything) to very little if the NHL just treated a WNHL like how colleges treat men's and women's basketball.

An independent league needs an entire organization; while NHL teams just need to add like 0 to 2 staff members per area to add in a women's team.

Put WNHL teams in half the cities, or in bigger AHL affiliate cities (like Cleveland, San Diego, Hartford).
- Clustered for travel reduction: California, Northeast, DET-Ontario-BUF, WIN-MIN-CHI-STL
- Play in NHL practice arenas or AHL arenas.
- Expand NHL/AHL staff to cover the women's games.
Whole thing could easily be revenue neutral. Include WNHL in NHL TV negotiations, but earmarked. NHLtv includes women's hockey. Cross-Promote.

The Pegulas did it that way and they were easily the best run/funded team until the NHL backed off. The NHL should have hired Danni Ryland to be an NHL VP/Women's Commissioner and turned that league into the WNHL.

 

[KevFu]

Again- cost that is subsidized by the NBA.

If the NBA withdrew it's support, the WNBA would likely collapse. It's not sustaining itself.

College players are electing to stay in college over joining the WNBA because there is more endorsement money in playing college ball than WNBA ball.

As I said; I watch some games so I'm not wishing them to crash but I just don't see how a league struggling as much as it is is talking about expansion.

#1 - The WNBA has NEVER had early-entry, ever. College players are NOT "electing to stay in college over joining the WNBA." They've NEVER had that choice. And there's only like SIX roster spots a season anyway. All Americans get cut in preseason because there's so few opportunities.

#2 - the NBA "subsidy" you speak of was years ago. Last in 2002. The real "subsidy" that goes on is dual owners writing off WNBA expenses from NBA revenue sharing. That's it.

#3 - You're talking about how a league can support itself when they "only" draw 4,000 to 10,000 fans per game. That's a quarter of the average NBA attendance. Throw in the difference in number of games and ticket prices:

WNBA Revenues from tickets are 82 times LESS than the NBA.
WNBA TV revenue is 74 times less than the NBA.

But WNBA payrolls are 294 times less than the NBA.

You can turn a profit at 7,000 tickets per game before even considering media or sponsorship money.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

#1 - The WNBA has NEVER had early-entry, ever. College players are NOT "electing to stay in college over joining the WNBA." They've NEVER had that choice. And there's only like SIX roster spots a season anyway. All Americans get cut in preseason because there's so few opportunities.

#2 - the NBA "subsidy" you speak of was years ago. Last in 2002. The real "subsidy" that goes on is dual owners writing off WNBA expenses from NBA revenue sharing. That's it.

#3 - You're talking about how a league can support itself when they "only" draw 4,000 to 10,000 fans per game. That's a quarter of the average NBA attendance. Throw in the difference in number of games and ticket prices:

WNBA Revenues from tickets are 82 times LESS than the NBA.
WNBA TV revenue is 74 times less than the NBA.

But WNBA payrolls are 294 times less than the NBA.

You can turn a profit at 7,000 tickets per game before even considering media or sponsorship money.

The electing to stay was players who had extended eligibility because of covid. There were two that I heard about but can't remember their names or school for the life of me

Whether it's direct transfer of money (which Adam Silver himself stated the NBA does) or tax write offs through ownership, still amounts to can't stand up on its own.

The median attendance last season was about 5600. Great attendance for major junior hockey teams that pay pittance to their players, but for a major professional league whose average ticket price is $47?

You can turn a profit sure, but the WNBA isn't- despite that low payroll cost.

I have yet to see anyone claim the WNBA is a roaring success and it's projection is through the roof for the future.

Like I said, all the best to them but I'm not seeing any compelling reason why expansion is expected to work for them.

 

[KevFu]

The electing to stay was players who had extended eligibility because of covid. There were two that I heard about but can't remember their names or school for the life of me

Whether it's direct transfer of money (which Adam Silver himself stated the NBA does) or tax write offs through ownership, still amounts to can't stand up on its own.

The median attendance last season was about 5600. Great attendance for major junior hockey teams that pay pittance to their players, but for a major professional league whose average ticket price is $47?

You can turn a profit sure, but the WNBA isn't- despite that low payroll cost.

I have yet to see anyone claim the WNBA is a roaring success and it's projection is through the roof for the future.

Like I said, all the best to them but I'm not seeing any compelling reason why expansion is expected to work for them.

The extra COVID year, okay. There was a USA Today article about players choosing to stay in college instead of going to the WNBA, but they totally buried the lead: There's MAYBE one roster spot per team for any rookie, period.


$47 for an average ticket? I did the math of "starting to turn a profit at 7000" based on an average of $18! If they're charging $47 per ticket, they're not TRYING to have high attendance, they're trying to make money off the fans they have.


All of this is a chicken/egg thing: Is the league not popular enough to expand, or is the league not as popular as it could be because there's only 12 teams?

Are profits being eaten up by how inefficient is to play 3 or 4 games against 11 teams spread out from Seattle to Atlanta and LA to Connecticut? Is having multiple teams with no opponent within 500 miles of them a detriment to both travel expenses and maybe selling tickets against an arch-rival?

And would increasing your market presence and the amount of inventory you're selling get you more TV dollars?

 

[ichbinkanadier]

The extra COVID year, okay. There was a USA Today article about players choosing to stay in college instead of going to the WNBA, but they totally buried the lead: There's MAYBE one roster spot per team for any rookie, period.


$47 for an average ticket? I did the math of "starting to turn a profit at 7000" based on an average of $18! If they're charging $47 per ticket, they're not TRYING to have high attendance, they're trying to make money off the fans they have.


All of this is a chicken/egg thing: Is the league not popular enough to expand, or is the league not as popular as it could be because there's only 12 teams?

Are profits being eaten up by how inefficient is to play 3 or 4 games against 11 teams spread out from Seattle to Atlanta and LA to Connecticut? Is having multiple teams with no opponent within 500 miles of them a detriment to both travel expenses and maybe selling tickets against an arch-rival?

And would increasing your market presence and the amount of inventory you're selling get you more TV dollars?

Good questions and as a fan of the business side of sports, I find fascinating to see potentially play out.

It's a toss up for me. The quality of play is nothing compared to the men's and unfortunately that comparison is inevitable because it's the same sport. I myself like it because it's a bit of a different kind of game than the men's but maybe I'm in the minority.

 

[Rob]

Where would they play?

 

[many76]

Where would they play?

Coca-Cola Coliseum or Paramount Fine Foods Centre where Raptors 905 team plays which might be the number one choice,I’m not sure if this is true but someone mentioned that there are not many dates available in that this arena during wnba season and also would need a renovation

 

[Rob]

Coca-Cola Coliseum or Paramount Fine Foods Centre where Raptors 905 team plays which might be the number one choice,I’m not sure if this is true but someone mentioned that there are not many dates available in that this arena during wnba season and also would need a renovation

Yeah, availability would be an issue since the Marlies use it as well

 

[KevFu]

Good questions and as a fan of the business side of sports, I find fascinating to see potentially play out.

It's a toss up for me. The quality of play is nothing compared to the men's and unfortunately that comparison is inevitable because it's the same sport. I myself like it because it's a bit of a different kind of game than the men's but maybe I'm in the minority.

I think the ultimate indicator of how people view the potential of the WNBA and other women's sports is that the WNBA said they know they need to expand and was going to start looking/researching... and they heard from groups from over 100 cities.


I think an interesting approach to view the WNBA is to look at the Big East. You said you "like it because it's a bit of a different kind of game than the men's" and there's a ton of people who like college basketball more than the NBA.

If the Big East TV deal is worth $60 million, how much should the WNBA be worth?