Player Discussion: Winnipeg Jets Defense

[Buffdog]

But a 3rd pairing better than miller.

What makes you say he's better than Miller? At the very least, point production across their careers says otherwise

I don't think he'd be enough of an upgrade to spend an extra 3M/year on him

 

[Jet]

What makes you say he's better than Miller? At the very least, point production across their careers says otherwise

I don't think he'd be enough of an upgrade to spend an extra 3M/year on him

People just don't want to let go.

Kovacevic has joined the anals of players they let go.

Esteemed names such as Petan, Dano, Niku, Eyssimont

I'm happy for Jonathan - looks like he's making the most of his opportunity, but our replacements are doing just fine.

At the end of the day, all these guys are bottom pair guys and very replaceable.

We should just be happy we aren't trotting out guys like Bitteto, Dahlstrom, Beaulieu, Ran_y Jones any more.

 

[Buffdog]

People just don't want to let go.

Kovacevic has joined the anals of players they let go.

Esteemed names such as Petan, Dano, Niku, Eyssimont

I'm happy for Jonathan - looks like he's making the most of his opportunity, but our replacements are doing just fine.

At the end of the day, all these guys are bottom pair guys and very replaceable.

We should just be happy we aren't trotting out guys like Bitteto, Dahlstrom, Beaulieu, Ran_y Jones any more.

Romanticizing "the one that got away" isn't unique to hockey waiver losses, but it seems to be as ingrained in our psyche as the urge to cheer for the underdog (as your examples prove lol)

 

[Gm0ney]

I'd guess half that.

Maybe. But a 6'5" RHD playing really solid defense in a $100M cap world? Ben Chiarot's cap hit is $4.75M and that kind of money would be way more productively spent on Kovacevic.

 

[Channelcat]

Maybe. But a 6'5" RHD playing really solid defense in a $100M cap world? Ben Chiarot's cap hit is $4.75M and that kind of money would be way more productively spent on Kovacevic.

The way I see it, Ben Chiarot owes Buff around 10M.

 

[WolfHouse]

We should just be happy we aren't trotting out guys like Bitteto, Dahlstrom, Beaulieu, Ran_y Jones any more.

This is more the issue with Kova and Chisholm - rather than replacement value - Jets are a draft and develop team who doesn't draft and develop dmen aside from Logan Stanley.

The Jets chose to keep Beaulieu over Kovacevic - when Nate would 100% have cleared waivers and was already a hack. With Chisholm, the Jets dumped a 23 year old Dman with scoring/PP potential - before waiving AJF or Toninato - both of which would have easily cleared...

The argument that Kova will level of as a 3rd pairing is fair - but also Neil Pionk and Dylan DeMelo would not be 20+ minute dmen on almost any other team... so basically everyone beyond Morrissey falls into this replacement level category - which is kind of scary when you think about it.

Its not that these players are saviours, it just seems like sloppy asset management.

 

[Buffdog]

This is more the issue with Kova and Chisholm - rather than replacement value - Jets are a draft and develop team who doesn't draft and develop dmen aside from Logan Stanley.

The Jets chose to keep Beaulieu over Kovacevic - when Nate would 100% have cleared waivers and was already a hack. With Chisholm, the Jets dumped a 23 year old Dman with scoring/PP potential - before waiving AJF or Toninato - both of which would have easily cleared...

The argument that Kova will level of as a 3rd pairing is fair - but also Neil Pionk and Dylan DeMelo would not be 20+ minute dmen on almost any other team... so basically everyone beyond Morrissey falls into this replacement level category - which is kind of scary when you think about it.

Its not that these players are saviours, it just seems like sloppy asset management.

Beaulieau was a lefty

The decision was aquire a RHD that offseason or gift the job to Kovacevic, who had all of 0 NHL games and only 75 AHL games of pro experience

 

[BoneDocUK]

^^^

Bealieu was awful, but had that 1st-round pedigree and was willing to step up for a hit (generally ineffectively) and fight (IIRC, well enough) and that earned him props with his coaches and what seemed like untouchable status for ages until he was blessedly let go.

He wasn't in direct competition with Kova, though I'd have bet even then that Kova (or anyone really) would have been a better bet even on his offside, since Beaulieu on many outings played as if he was on his offside, and tipsy, and not wearing his proper prescriptions, and had never played hockey, etc.

Lord, those were dark days defensively.

 

[Crocket]

People may hate to hear this, but pedigree is a factor

The reason players get drafted where they do has a lot to do with just raw physical tools/genetic athleticism

There's a reason that Kovacevic got overlooked in his draft year despite being a big right shot defender. He never had the natural physical abilities that a guy like Samberg had

That's not to say that a guy like Kovacevic can't become a good (or even great player) - but he'll have to do it with hockey sense, willingness to play a system, coachability, etc... which takes time to develop

He has similar if not better physical abilities than Samberg. He had a similar dev path too, he's playing a big role with the devils just like Samberg is which us. Similar age too. Kov is bigger and tougher.
He just couldn't crack the roster at a specific time.

 

[Crocket]

Heinola is playing better and better, his passing is excellent, he's good at retrieving the puck. Not physical obviously but he has a good gap and was physical enough against Boston.

You can see his IQ on the ice. His skating will get better with conditioning. I like what I see.

Our left side is strong. Which makes it harder to believe we're hanging on to Stanley

 

[voyageur]

Heinola is playing better and better, his passing is excellent, he's good at retrieving the puck. Not physical obviously but he has a good gap and was physical enough against Boston.

You can see his IQ on the ice. His skating will get better with conditioning. I like what I see.

Our left side is strong. Which makes it harder to believe we're hanging on to Stanley

Yeah each good game Heinola has will make people forget about Chisholm. Because that would be the player getting blocked in the lineup by him. Fleury as a PKer is at least a semi replaceable Samberg level and I don't Chisholm was ever that. Stanley is a team player that's why he is still here.

Kovacevic would have helped the PK here, maybe taken some of those minutes from Pionk. If Norrissey contributes more offensively though by not klling penalties it's an easy choice to put somebody else in that role, even if they are borderline players. Maybe not as borderline as Beaulieu and Sbisa, but I can say for sure Maurice loved those guys, who wore the ice packs every night for doing a job that isn't rewarding except on the scoreboard.

 

[scelaton]

People just don't want to let go.
Kovacevic has joined the anals of players they let go.
Esteemed names such as Petan, Dano, Niku, Eyssimont
I'm happy for Jonathan - looks like he's making the most of his opportunity, but our replacements are doing just fine.
At the end of the day, all these guys are bottom pair guys and very replaceable.
We should just be happy we aren't trotting out guys like Bitteto, Dahlstrom, Beaulieu, Ran_y Jones any more.

I don't see it this way at all. Lots of people here look at the team as a fans, but also through a quality improvement lens. It makes it more fun for them than just reflexly defending the team's decisions. To really dig deep in a QI project you have to look at performance (yes, including stats) and be prepared to be honest with yourself and others when mistakes are made.

Are the more critical fans losing sleep about these moves? No. Does it make any of them them less of a fan? I don't think so.
Chisholm and Kovacevic are not replaceable bottom-pairing guys. They are both playing top-4 minutes on top-5 teams in the league. Stanley cost Chisholm a spot here and is slowing Heinola's transition to the NHL. If a fan refuses to admit that, that's their right (even if they are wrong). If the team is blind to it, it's a problem.

Every single team and every single one of us makes mistakes, every day. Without acknowledging that and learning from it how are we going to get better?

 

[Buffdog]

He has similar if not better physical abilities than Samberg. He had a similar dev path too, he's playing a big role with the devils just like Samberg is which us. Similar age too. Kov is bigger and tougher.
He just couldn't crack the roster at a specific time.

Kovacevic was undrafted at 18. Samberg was drafted 2nd round out of high school

6'5 RHD don't get passed on by all 31 teams seven times one year and then two more times the next year if they have the physical abilities of a second round pick

Go back and watch the highlights of Samberg in his draft year. Just oozes raw physical athleticism. Kovacevoc has never had that

 

[Flair Hay]

Beaulieau was a lefty

The decision was aquire a RHD that offseason or gift the job to Kovacevic, who had all of 0 NHL games and only 75 AHL games of pro experience

Or keep him as the 8th defenseman over a 5th LHD like they did with Capobianco.

Let's not make it sound harder than it was at the time. The team kept a guy they had no investment in, that they let go the following year.

 

[StumpyTown]

Jets have won a ton of games over the past couple seasons with some of the best defensive numbers in the toughest league in the world. Nitpicking who the 6th-8th dmen are is a pretty awesome luxury.

 

[Buffdog]

Or keep him as the 8th defenseman over a 5th LHD like they did with Capobianco.

Let's not make it sound harder than it was at the time. The team kept a guy they had no investment in, that they let go the following year.

Are you talking about the summer they signed Schmidt (2021) or the fall they lost Kovacevic (2022)?

The thing with Capobianco was that he was a lefty but was comfortable slotting in on the right

Having someone who can play both sides is very useful, which is likely why you're seeing Heinola on thr right side these days

 

[Bender Duster]

Heinola is playing better and better, his passing is excellent, he's good at retrieving the puck. Not physical obviously but he has a good gap and was physical enough against Boston.

You can see his IQ on the ice. His skating will get better with conditioning. I like what I see.

Our left side is strong. Which makes it harder to believe we're hanging on to Stanley

I that Heinola played great last night. You can see his confidence growing with the more NHL ice he gets.

It's counter productive to him developing confidence by yo-yoing him in and out of the line up every second game...but Vegas plays big so chances are it's press box for Ville tomorrow.

 

[Buffdog]

I that Heinola played great last night. You can see his confidence growing with the more NHL ice he gets.

It's counter productive to him developing confidence by yo-yoing him in and out of the line up every second game...but Vegas plays big so chances are it's press box for Ville tomorrow.

According to Arniel, they take the opposite approach

They think it would hurt his confidence to play him fatigued and end up getting beaten because of is

 

[Flair Hay]

Are you talking about the summer they signed Schmidt (2021) or the fall they lost Kovacevic (2022)?

The thing with Capobianco was that he was a lefty but was comfortable slotting in on the right

Having someone who can play both sides is very useful, which is likely why you're seeing Heinola on thr right side these days

The fall they lost Kovacevic. Maybe you're right, keeping Capo was the right move after all.

 

[Gm0ney]

Kovacevic was undrafted at 18. Samberg was drafted 2nd round out of high school

6'5 RHD don't get passed on by all 31 teams seven times one year and then two more times the next year if they have the physical abilities of a second round pick

Go back and watch the highlights of Samberg in his draft year. Just oozes raw physical athleticism. Kovacevoc has never had that

Late bloomer. Lots of guys were passed over in the draft year (or undrafted) and turned out pretty good. Same thing works the other way where a guy looks like the Second Coming in his draft year and then never takes that next step.

By 2023 though, the Jets, who had watched this guy develop for 6 years, should've had a better handle on him.

 

[Crocket]

Kovacevic was undrafted at 18. Samberg was drafted 2nd round out of high school

6'5 RHD don't get passed on by all 31 teams seven times one year and then two more times the next year if they have the physical abilities of a second round pick

Go back and watch the highlights of Samberg in his draft year. Just oozes raw physical athleticism. Kovacevoc has never had that

Kovy outplayed him at every level. Including the NHL. Samberg on the Habs would've been caved in so badly.

Athletically? Tough to say. Kovy is bigger and stronger, tougher, but not sure what you measuring that by.

 

[Buffdog]

Kovy outplayed him at every level. Including the NHL. Samberg on the Habs would've been caved in so badly.

Athletically? Tough to say. Kovy is bigger and stronger, tougher, but not sure what you measuring that by.

How do you figure?

You do realize that Kovacevic is two years older than Samberg, right? Give Samberg two more years to develop and compare him then to what Kovacevic is now

Kovacevic played his 1st games as a Hab at 25 years old. He played bottom pairing on a shitty team. That's how old Samberg is now, except he's anchoring the 2nd pairing on one of the top teams in the league

 

[Romang67]

Kovy outplayed him at every level. Including the NHL. Samberg on the Habs would've been caved in so badly.

Athletically? Tough to say. Kovy is bigger and stronger, tougher, but not sure what you measuring that by.

Samberg has been a consistent + player in xGF% on the Jets. There is no reason to believe that he would be caved in on another team. Samberg is really good.