Prospect Info: Wings Prospect Discussion

[norrisnick]

Is that what happened to Veleno? His lack of offense and not really showing top-6 upside as a pro was because three different pro teams worked to turn him into LFG? Hmmm.

Be safe. Be safe. Be safe. Be safe.

Though I love that Bergie has said fu going to create. Don't listen.

 

[jaster]

Be safe. Be safe. Be safe. Be safe.

Though I love that Bergie has said fu going to create. Don't listen.

Berggren stepped onto the scene and showed immediately that his offense was NHL-caliber and ready to contribute though. I just haven't seen Veleno demonstrate anything close to that at any point. The way the two read plays is almost the opposite.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Hey, maybe he turns into one of those top-6 caliber players we can plug into the bottom-6 for a while, like nick is hoping for. Who knows.

If Kasper becomes our Brayden Point then maybe Lombardi can be our Cirelli?

 

[norrisnick]

Berggren stepped onto the scene and showed immediately that his offense was NHL-caliber and ready to contribute though. I just haven't seen Veleno demonstrate anything close to that at any point. The way the two read plays is almost the opposite.

They're from the same draft. Yet Bergie has spent the last two seasons being THE guy offensively for his team. Joe has spent the last two years being told not to screw up and to be safe.

 

[jaster]

They're from the same draft. Yet Bergie has spent the last two seasons being THE guy offensively for his team. Joe has spent the last two years being told not to screw up and to be safe.

Causation/correlation, chicken/egg. Is Veleno not as good offensively as Berggren because Veleno came up sooner and was asked to be safe? Or did Veleno come up sooner because he didn't have as much offense as Berggren to develop to begin with, and he was already kind of safe?

Maybe a little of column A, little of column B. We'll never really know. Or at least won't be able to prove how much of which. I've always liked Veleno as a high-floor, good-skating, jack-of-all-trades type. No carrying tool, but no glaring weakness either. At no point have I ever thought of him as offensively gifted as Berggren though. Maybe there was more offense to unlock and the Wings failed to do so, but I just don't see a lot to back that theory up.

 

[Henkka]

If Kasper becomes our Brayden Point then maybe Lombardi can be our Cirelli?

Cirelli is a best defensive Center at Tampa.

Think Larkin is nearest for Cirelli, Kasper maybe a "point".

Lombardi... hmmm, maybe "poor man's kucherov". = Jiri Hudler.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Cirelli is a best defensive Center at Tampa.

Think Larkin is nearest for Cirelli, Kasper maybe a "point".

Lombardi... hmmm, maybe "poor man's kucherov". = Jiri Hudler.

Or Yanni Gourde/Tyler Johnson?

 

[jkutswings]

I think you'd need more information to put the lion's share of the blame on the organization (versus the player).

1) On draft day, the knock on Veleno was that he wouldn't have enough offense at the NHL level.

2) Even if a guy was pigeonholed into low event hockey during games, somebody with enough talent and drive to prove themselves would at least be showing out in practice whenever possible. And/or doing whatever he could off the ice to knock the door down for a bigger assignment (extra training on stick handling, passing, shooting, etc.; news stories about him showing up to training camp early, or unofficial get togethers with other players to work on offensive skills). SOMETHING to suggest the kid is desperate to show that he has what it takes.

Thus far, I'm not aware of anything that paints a picture of untapped potential on offense that a stodgy front office and/or staff is letting go to waste in the name of minimizing risk.

 

[Henkka]

That damn 2018 draft was very very odd.

It looks like it's total defenceman draft. All best players are defencemen and forwards are busting, one after another.

Only Brady Tkachuk and Andrei Svechnikov have become real deals. From Forwards.

Zadina and Veleno are both very ugly, meh talent.

From last 2 seasons:

- Best scorer from this 2018 class is Quinn Hughes, a defenceman.
- Three of Top5 scorers are defencemen, Q.Hughes, Dobson and Dahlin.
- Seven of the Top11 scorers are defencemen, Hughes, Dobson, Dahlin, Bouchard, Durzi, Addison, Boqvist.

Hayton, Kotkaniemi, Zadina even Oliver Wahlstrom. Something isn't right with this forward class.

Ilimited this sample size for 40 games played, so there's no 35-game Berggren. But he is par with Farabee at 0.51 points per game. He could right there as 3-5 best forward from this class.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

That damn 2018 draft was very very odd.

It looks like it's total defenceman draft. All best players are defencemen and forwards are busting, one after another.

Only Brady Tkachuk and Andrei Svechnikov have become real deals. From Forwards.

Zadina and Veleno are both very ugly, meh talent.

View attachment 646915


From last 2 seasons:

- Best scorer from this 2018 class is Quinn Hughes, a defenceman.
- Three of Top5 scorers are defencemen, Q.Hughes, Dobson and Dahlin.
- Seven of the Top11 scorers are defencemen, Hughes, Dobson, Dahlin, Bouchard, Durzi, Addison, Boqvist.

Hayton, Kotkaniemi, Zadina even Oliver Wahlstrom. Something isn't right with this forward class.

Ilimited this sample size for 40 games played, so there's no 35-game Berggren. But he is par with Farabee at 0.51 points per game. He could right there as 3-5 best forward from this class.

So when wings fans here were pounding the table to take a defenseman they were right and Holland was wrong? Whaaaaaat?

 

[Realgud]

So when wings fans here were pounding the table to take a defenseman they were right and Holland was wrong? Whaaaaaat?

To be fair, I'm pretty sure most wings fan were happy with Zadina when he "fell" to us. But yeah, before the draft, it was all defensemen and funnily enough, any of the choices people might have argued about would have certainly been a better pick (Hughes, Dobson, Bouchard...). I wanted Hughes so bad but oh well. Zadina's career isn't over and he still shows some good things here and there but it's running late, that's for sure. For the team's sake, I hope he finds a way to prove some of us wrong and Holland right.

 

[Filppula]

That damn 2018 draft was very very odd.

Zadina and Veleno are both very ugly, meh talent.

Getting a guaranteed at worst 4C for the next decade isn’t what I would call very ugly. 30th overall, hardly a disaster.

 

[Killerjas]

Getting a guaranteed at worst 4C for the next decade isn’t what I would call very ugly. 30th overall, hardly a disaster.

You can get 4th line players in the UFA market. With 1st round picks, you expect much more than that.

 

[jfrank21]

And honestly, as much as I like Joe, if he doesnt develop into a 3rd line C then he's kind of useless. When the Wings are actually ready to compete in the dance, they need to have guys on the 4th who can punish/outwork/out physical the other team. Watching Evander Kane and Darnell Nurse bully our entire team just emphasized how much needs to change for the Wings for when the games actually count and other teams are actually trying.

 

[newfy]

You can get 4th line players in the UFA market. With 1st round picks, you expect much more than that.

If youre going to expect much more than that from 30th overall picks youre going to be disappointed. Veleno is already a useful NHLer and an above average 4th line center. I would argue hes on track to be a really good third line center. At 30th overall, thats a fine pick.

I dont have the numbers but I bet his transition advanced stats and puck carrying are very high end for where he plays in the lineup.

 

[Henkka]

Getting a guaranteed at worst 4C for the next decade isn’t what I would call very ugly. 30th overall, hardly a disaster.

Tough to see him as a Center, because he can't even break the 40% mark on faceoffs.

That's huge mountain to develop that skill later on his career.

Usually best career Faceoff guys are already quite good at young age, like near the 50. Then they master it later on the career and will become 55-60% faceoff guys.

Everything points toward a career winger.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Tough to see him as a Center, because he can't even break the 40% mark on faceoffs.

That's huge mountain to develop that skill later on his career.

Usually best career Faceoff guys are already quite good at young age, like near the 50. Then they master it later on the career and will become 55-60% faceoff guys.

55-60% is the very elite, kind of a high bar you're setting. 40% isn't good enough but at least he's better lately (~45% since the new year).
I think ideally Veleno has kind of Mikael Backlund trajectory for us. Slow growth offensively, while bringing a lot of value defensively.

 

[jaster]

Veleno's faceoff ability is putrid so far, but it's nothing to worry about long-term. It's rare for young guys like him to be good at faceoffs already. He may never get very far on the positive side of the ledger, but he doesn't need to. Hover around 50% and you're passable.

 

[lilidk]

Veleno sucks, lets give him to jets for 1$

 

[dtown77]

You can get 4th line players in the UFA market. With 1st round picks, you expect much more than that.

You expect to get much more then that? That made me chuckle so, I went and looked at the 30th over all pick for the last 20 years. Veleno already is in the middle of the pack with points scored. The best 30th over all pick in the last 20 years is probably Brock Nelson. Hell in the last 30 years the only real competition he has is Nelson, Scott Gomez, and Sandis Ozolinsh, and Patrice Brisebois. JV has the potential to go down in history as one of the greatest 30th overall picks in league history. Just saying

 

[jfrank21]

Amadeus Amadeus! Goal and 3 assists tonight! Staying hot!

 

[Filppula]

Amadeus Amadeus! Goal and 3 assists tonight! Staying hot!

Super impressive. 18 points last 9.

 

[norrisnick]

And I checked, they're all 19 or 20.

 

[lhsgolf19]

So far, tied for 3rd in the Nation in Goals with 19.

 

[jfrank21]

And I checked, they're all 19 or 20.

Just remember that he is too...