Why is Terry Sawchuk rated so highly?

[The Panther]

Certainly Sawchuk is a legendary goalie of Canadian/hockey history, and I also see him as a legit Hall of Famer.

But I also suspect (I realize I could be wrong) that he's currently being over-rated. The recent Hockey News list has him as the #1 goaltender of all-time. I don't really see any justification for this. Of course, I never saw the guy play, so my opinions are ill-informed, and I wonder if anyone who did see him can comment.

His career began in utterly spectacular fashion with Detroit: Not counting his 7-game blip (call-up?) in early 1950, from 1950-51 to 1954-55 (basically his entire prime-time career with Detroit), he went 195 - 78, plus the usual bunch of ties. More impressively, he went 28 - 15 in the playoffs, winning three Cups. In the spring of 1952 (this was Bowman's choice as the greatest Red Wings team ever) he went 8 - 0 in the playoffs, with 0.62 GAA.

So, obviously, five years into his career, he was a legend in the making, maybe the best goalie in the NHL, and set on a Hall of Fame path. All very impressive, though I don't necessarily see this five-year period as any more impressive than a handful of other five-year periods from other goaltenders.

Then, what about the rest of his career? After that, he had a sub-.500 winning record for the next 15 years, a .907 GAA (in one-third of these seasons, his GAA was in the .800s), and if you're into the 'Goals saved above average' stat, he was a poor -51.3.

He also had a losing record in the playoffs these 15 years. The one bright-spot of this decade-and-a-half was the 1967 Maple Leafs' Stanley Cup, in which Sawchuk went 6-4 with a fine .931 (though in the two games 42-year-old Johnny Bower played, his stats are considerably better than Sawchuk's).


So, anyway, the point of this isn't to gripe about the player, but just to ask: Why is he being ranked #1 all-time? I just don't see it.

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[Fenway]

These lists are all subjective BUT most rank him the #1 goalie of the O6 era.

The Wings traded him to Boston in 1955 and that was a disaster and the Bruins traded him back for a promising player who turned into a Hall of Famer. The Wings liked Glenn Hall more and that forced the trade.

Once the Wings got him back they sent Hall to hockey Siberia in Chicago along with Ted Lindsay.

 

[The Panther]

Okay, but even in the six-team era, what would Sawchuk have over Jacques Plante (whom I personally rate as #1 all time, or at least co-#1 with one or two others)?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Copying over a post I wrote earlier tonight in the top-75 thread:

“I feel like Sawchuk was surpassed as the consensus best goalie around the time Roy passed his wins record. Much like Hainsworth's shutout record, that one number really floated Sawchuk's reputation relative to the other big-name historic goalies. Between Hasek's Harts and Roy's wins record, then Brodeur coming through to leapfrog into first place, Sawchuk was seen rather differently 10 years later.”


Speaking only for myself, as a much younger fan with a less nuanced understanding of history, in 1997 as far as I was concerned Sawchuk was “the goalie who won the most games ever” and Plante was “the guy who invented the goalie mask”. Their relative merits as performers was not (and probably is even less so today) common knowledge. It was about the lasting signature achievements, and Sawchuk happened to have the Big One.

I’m pretty sure an alternate timeline version of myself who never got interested in the historical details would still think Roy and Brodeur were lesser goalies who happened to stumble into the record. Kind of like how I feel about the current NFL career passing leaders versus Dan Marino.

 

[Professor What]

To me Hasek and Roy in some order are 1-2. I honestly think THN is literally living in the past where Sawchuk's all-time ranking is concerned because they're still apparently dependent on an over 20 year old list. After Hasek and Roy, however, I think Sawchuk and Plante are neck and neck for the next spot.

On a more personal level, I have to say that I have a massive amount of respect for Sawchuk and what he overcame to build the career he did. Mental health issues are no joke, and by all accounts, he had a serious battle with them. As someone who has the same battle and knows how debilitating they can be, my hat is off to Sawchuk. It does make him something of a favorite of mine, and I think it's something that has to be taken into consideration when talking about his place in history.

 

[The Panther]

Speaking only for myself, as a much younger fan with a less nuanced understanding of history, in 1997 as far as I was concerned Sawchuk was “the goalie who won the most games ever” and Plante was “the guy who invented the goalie mask”. Their relative merits as performers was not (and probably is even less so today) common knowledge.

Yes, you're probably right, and this of course is utterly absurd.

"The guy who invented the goalie mask"... Good Lord. Not only is it insignificant in the face of Plante's career, it's inaccurate!

Anyway, ignoring popular narratives from media, I don't see how one could look at Sawchuk's and Plante's career records, and then conclude that Sawchuk was better. I find that incomprehensible.

I am aware that Sawchuk is credited with starting the "crouching tiger" position in the net, so he probably gets some extra respect for that.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but for me "career wins" by a goalie isn't very noteworthy. Like, we never, ever hear about "career wins" by a skater. It's just a reflection of team accomplishments and longevity.

 

[The Panther]

To me Hasek and Roy in some order are 1-2. I honestly think THN is literally living in the past where Sawchuk's all-time ranking is concerned because they're still apparently dependent on an over 20 year old list. After Hasek and Roy, however, I think Sawchuk and Plante are neck and neck for the next spot.

I've no issue with Hašek at #1. I guess he's my co-#1 with Plante.

(I also don't see Roy in the top-5, but I'm well aware that I'm in the minority on this forum...)

 

[Fenway]

Not to diminish what goalies in the modern era have done but goalies like Sawchuk, Plante, Hall, Bower, and others were warriors ( and a little nuts )

Sawchuk has to be in the conversation for best ever.

 

[Fenway]

Anyway, ignoring popular narratives from media, I don't see how one could look at Sawchuk's and Plante's career records, and then conclude that Sawchuk was better. I find that incomprehensible.

Plante wasn't expected to steal a win but Sawchuk was.

 

[nabby12]

It's so hard to compare eras for this type of question as the game is very different today than what it was in Sawchuk's era.

With that said, Sawchuk was definitely the GOAT of his era at the very least. Plante has admitted it in the past. As did Glenn Hall when I asked him last month who the greatest goalie of all time was in his eyes. After seeing Roy/Brodeur/Hasek, he still goes with Sawchuk. Johnny Bower told me the same thing.

Basically any non-Canadiens player from that era would have told you that Sawchuk was better than Plante.

I like this bitter-sounding quote from Jacques Plante when he was asked when the mask was finally accepted: "It wasn't until Sawchuk put on the mask that the Canadiens and the NHL really accepted it. He was the best and if he wore one it had to be all right."

After all the success and Stanley Cups Plante had won by the time Andy Bathgate had hit him in the face with that shot on November 1, 1959. You would think that if Plante wanted to wear a mask that he knows what's best and that it's a good idea. But no. It was flat-out refused.

Meanwhile Sawchuk, who had certainly regressed by this point and was nowhere near his peak, was still considered the king of the net by everyone in hockey. When he wore the mask, it was cemented as a good idea for goalies.

My two cents.

 

[Fenway]

I saw him play in the '60s but my Dad and older brother despised him because they felt he quit on the Bruins.

I will simply say the players of that era seem to give a consensus that he was the best.

 

[alko]

For me, every goalie in "No Mask Era" should be in HOF.

 

[Fenway]

For me, every goalie in "No Mask Era" should be in HOF.

No NHL goalie in that era wanted to be the first to wear a mask but there was a big line to be #2.

A 1959 Stanley Cup Semi-Final Game 7 was delayed for a long time to allow Bruins goalie Harry Lumley to be repaired.

 

[The Panther]

I'm still trying to figure out the Sawchuk-over-Plante thing.

Was Sawchuk really required to "steal" wins while with Detroit? The club finished in 1st place seven years in a row, 1st in offense four years in a row (and then 2nd twice more), and had five Hall of Fame skaters, during Sawchuk's peak years.

Obviously Plante was in at least as favorable a situation in Montreal, but he also won more Cups than Sawchuk in his respective early peak period.

The difference, to me, is not the brief Stanley Cup heyday of each, but after that.

In Sawchuk's case, from 1955-56 to 1969-70 (15 seasons):
Top-five save percentage
2, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5
Top-five GSAA
3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5

In Plante's case, from 1960-61 to 1972-73 (13 seasons):
Top-five save percentage
1, 1, 1, 4, 5, 5
Top-five GSAA
1, 1, 1, 3

Again, having little to go by but the stats, this suggests to me that Sawchuk had a harder time post-1955 due to the clubs he played for. But still, the stats don't suggest (to me) that Sawchuk's post-1955 has anything over Plante's post-1960. At best, they're about even, but Plante certainly had higher peak seasons (including the best save percentage in NHL history, 16 years after the Habs' dynasty he played for).

I mean, if your position is that Sawchuk in Detroit was clearly superior to Plante in dynasty-Montreal, then I guess there's a logical case for him, overall. But... I don't really see it.

 

[blogofmike]

I'm still trying to figure out the Sawchuk-over-Plante thing.

Was Sawchuk really required to "steal" wins while with Detroit? The club finished in 1st place seven years in a row, 1st in offense four years in a row (and then 2nd twice more), and had five Hall of Fame skaters, during Sawchuk's peak years.

Obviously Plante was in at least as favorable a situation in Montreal, but he also won more Cups than Sawchuk in his respective early peak period.

The difference, to me, is not the brief Stanley Cup heyday of each, but after that.

In Sawchuk's case, from 1955-56 to 1969-70 (15 seasons):
Top-five save percentage
2, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5
Top-five GSAA
3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5

In Plante's case, from 1960-61 to 1972-73 (13 seasons):
Top-five save percentage
1, 1, 1, 4, 5, 5
Top-five GSAA
1, 1, 1, 3

Again, having little to go by but the stats, this suggests to me that Sawchuk had a harder time post-1955 due to the clubs he played for. But still, the stats don't suggest (to me) that Sawchuk's post-1955 has anything over Plante's post-1960. At best, they're about even, but Plante certainly had higher peak seasons (including the best save percentage in NHL history, 16 years after the Habs' dynasty he played for).

I mean, if your position is that Sawchuk in Detroit was clearly superior to Plante in dynasty-Montreal, then I guess there's a logical case for him, overall. But... I don't really see it.

I have Plante ahead too, but Sawchuk's peak precedes save percentage, and he may have had the best goaltending playoff run ever. I believe he unofficially posted a .971 against the Leafs in Round 1, then followed it up with a .981 in the Finals against the Habs.

 

[Doctor No]

In Sawchuk's case, from 1955-56 to 1969-70 (15 seasons):
Top-five save percentage
2, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5
Top-five GSAA
3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5

One concern with this is that you're leaving out two years of Sawchuk's consensus prime (and insert standard caveats regarding save percentage, of course).

I haven't done a list since early 2018 (for the THN issue) but I had Hasek, Roy, Plante, Hall, Brodeur, Sawchuk, Dryden.

 

[The Panther]

I have Plante ahead too, but Sawchuk's peak precedes save percentage, and he may have had the best goaltending playoff run ever. I believe he unofficially posted a .971 against the Leafs in Round 1, then followed it up with a .981 in the Finals against the Habs.

One concern with this is that you're leaving out two years of Sawchuk's consensus prime (and insert standard caveats regarding save percentage, of course).

I haven't done a list since early 2018 (for the THN issue) but I had Hasek, Roy, Plante, Hall, Brodeur, Sawchuk, Dryden.

The point you may both be missing is that I intentionally left out BOTH Sawchuk's and Plante's cup-centered peak seasons.

 

[BM67]

Ask those that watched through the O6 era who had the best single game performance, or the best playoff run, and many will say Sawchuk. As his career went along he had fewer "great" games, but he still shown just as bright when he was "on".

When you say great goaltending, their memories flash up Sawchuk. That's what keeps him at #1 in their minds. Of course being #1 in wins and shutouts didn't hurt either.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

All-star voting was more important for goalies in the 06 era since the Vezina winner was mainly a statistical award back then.

Plante: 3 first team, 4 second team

Sawchuk: 3 first team, 4 second team

Hall: 7 first team, 4 second team

With only 6 teams, voters must have gone strictly by the eye test.

I guess Glenn Hall looked pretty good.

 

[The Macho King]

It's so hard to compare eras for this type of question as the game is very different today than what it was in Sawchuk's era.

With that said, Sawchuk was definitely the GOAT of his era at the very least. Plante has admitted it in the past. As did Glenn Hall when I asked him last month who the greatest goalie of all time was in his eyes. After seeing Roy/Brodeur/Hasek, he still goes with Sawchuk. Johnny Bower told me the same thing.

Basically any non-Canadiens player from that era would have told you that Sawchuk was better than Plante.

I like this bitter-sounding quote from Jacques Plante when he was asked when the mask was finally accepted: "It wasn't until Sawchuk put on the mask that the Canadiens and the NHL really accepted it. He was the best and if he wore one it had to be all right."

After all the success and Stanley Cups Plante had won by the time Andy Bathgate had hit him in the face with that shot on November 1, 1959. You would think that if Plante wanted to wear a mask that he knows what's best and that it's a good idea. But no. It was flat-out refused.

Meanwhile Sawchuk, who had certainly regressed by this point and was nowhere near his peak, was still considered the king of the net by everyone in hockey. When he wore the mask, it was cemented as a good idea for goalies.

My two cents.

I wonder if that impression was somewhat due to Plante being French-Canadian?

 

[JackSlater]

He was given credit for having the most wins for decades and it seems like he had the highest peak plenty of people had ever seen. Sawchuk does seem to have been rated more highly than his resume indicates. Could be a Toews situation or perhaps the people watching saw something that's lost when put on paper.

 

[kaiser matias]

I honestly think THN is literally living in the past where Sawchuk's all-time ranking is concerned because they're still apparently dependent on an over 20 year old list.

I've noticed this as well: since they released that list they have referred to it as some sort of authoritative document, the final decision on who fits where. It almost seems like they are trying to create a legacy for it and give it the authority they want, despite it being one among many out there.

 

[Big Phil]

Hart voting:
Sawchuk - 3, 4, 4, 4, 7
Plante - 1, 5

Take into account these are players with significant talent on their teams. You can say "Well, Plante had those great Habs teams of the 1950s, he isn't going to get many votes or stand out". Well, Sawchuk had the Wings of the 1950s. Plante also never got traded away right in his prime. That was a bad trade for the Red Wings. Is it a coincidence that the Wings never won the Cup after they traded him? Once he came back, Lindsay was gone and the Wings were not the 1955 Wings anymore.

I think with Sawchuk the 1967 Cup win gives him a lot of deserved miles. He won a Cup in his old age, Plante didn't.

Also, those first 5 years of his career are insane. You can still say he had the highest peak of any goalie, ever. Hasek in the 1990s and Bernie Parent's two big years are the only ones you can really use as a debate against it.

I have always thought that at the end of the day there are 4 goalies - Roy, Sawchuk, Hasek, Plante - where you can argue they are #1. All 4 have some case for it but they all seem to have a different reason for why we pick them #1. I was very surprised that THN in a modern day list had Sawchuk #1. It isn't as if I disagree, I just thought he would be discarded below Roy and Hasek. One thing you notice is just how quick Sawchuk was when you watch old videos. There are times when I still think he is #1, it isn't wrong, and in a way it isn't wrong if he isn't either.

 

[tarheelhockey]

He was given credit for having the most wins for decades and it seems like he had the highest peak plenty of people had ever seen.

That combination pretty efficiently makes the argument. As of about 1997, Sawchuk had the peak argument and the “compilation” argument. It’s certainly possible to make the argument for other goalies, but that’s a matter of getting into context and details. From a general perception standpoint, it’s easy to see why he was the consensus #1 until Hasek and Roy challenged his primacy in peak and longevity/compilation.

 

[Section 104]

Todd Denault’s biography has a paragraph that kind of explains the high regard many had for Sawchuk. Few players make such an immediate impact. Calder award and first team all star his first year. Followed it with two Vezinas and two more first team. The 1952 playoffs sealed his reputation Detroit went 8-0 and Sawchuk had 4 shutouts and gave up only 5 goals in the other 4 games for a 0.63 GAA.