Why did Sergei Fedorov hold out prior to and through a substantial part of the 1997-1998 season?

[Jim MacDonald]

Good Evening HoH Friends and Fans!

I hope everyone is doing well. I'm doing ok--I've enjoyed reading and learning info on new/previous posts etc.

I was wondering why Fedorov held out through a good chunk of the 97-98 season? I was going to college, loved hockey, but didn't really have an appreciation for the "behind the scenes" type stuff. If I can "shoot from the hip" so to speak, more specifically:

1. Was Fedorov's current contract up at the end of 96-97?
2. Did Fedorov's agent (if I remember right, the guy's name might've been Don Meehan) and Devellano/Holland have talks over the summer to try and get Fedorov to report to camp on time etc?
3. If the issue was contract length/money, I wonder if it was made public how "far apart" the two sides were at the start of training camp in 97-98?
4. The fact the Carolina Hurricanes presented Fedorov an offer sheet, this may make my question #1 null and void, as an offer sheet tells me he was maybe a "restricted free agent."

I welcome opinions in addition to the answers to my questions as well about the situation as a whole. Look forward to you knowledgeable folks as always!-Jim

 

[FerrisRox]

Just to address the title, for the sake of clarity, Sergei Fedorov did not hold out.

A hold out requires a player to have a contract that they are not going to honour, so they "hold out."

Sergei Fedorov was a restricted free agent who couldn't come to terms with Detroit on a new pact. He obviously can't hold out if he doesn't even have a contract. Fedorov ultimately missed 59-games before he signed an offer-sheet with Carolina which famously included a "poison pill" should Fedorov's team reach the Conference Finals in the form of $12 million bonus.

 

[Albatros]

Just to address the title, for the sake of clarity, Sergei Fedorov did not hold out.

A hold out requires a player to have a contract that they are not going to honour, so they "hold out."

Sergei Fedorov was a restricted free agent who couldn't come to terms with Detroit on a new pact. He obviously can't hold out if he doesn't even have a contract. Fedorov ultimately missed 59-games before he signed an offer-sheet with Carolina which famously included a "poison pill" should Fedorov's team reach the Conference Finals in the form of $12 million bonus.

I believe the trigger mechanism was that by reaching the Conference Finals (like Detroit in all likelihood would) all bonuses would be due immediately, whereas otherwise (as in Carolina) they would be spread out much more evenly over six years.

 

[Crosby2010]

I can remember that year. Fedorov still played in the Olympics in Nagano. He did not have an NHL contract at that time. He got it shortly after that. If I recall the offer sheet from Carolina meant Detroit got 5 1st round picks. In my personal opinion, as great as Fedorov was to the success of that team, especially in the playoffs, Detroit was better off had he gone to Carolina. Offer sheets were crazy back then, just look at Chris Gratton at the same time. I don't think Detroit wins the Cup without Fedorov in 1998, but all they needed was a trade deadline acquisition and I think they would have been fine. By 2002 when the won their other one sure Fedorov is a big part of it but by then they'd have 4 of the 5 first round picks and no doubt those players help them win. I remember Scotty Bowman saying that they wanted to win now, and that in the future he wasn't going to be there anyways. So that's why they matched the offer. I guess the results speak for themselves though with the two Cups afterwards.

 

[MadLuke]

Detroit got 5 1st round picks.

We cannot really play a good what if game, Fedorov change the draft pick Carolina got for worst one logically but:

Canes first draft in

1999: Dave Tanabe
2000: Tomas Kurka
2001: Igor Knyazev
2002: Cam Ward
2003: Eric Staal

Outside the magic 2003 draft (and you can still end up picking some Kostityn), that era average first round pick value was not that high, I did not know the first 3 one, Cam Ward obviously but goaltender are a bit of a fluke and it is never certain another organisation would have drafted them.

It is likely that Detroit do not draft any of those player, having Fedorov can change the Canes draft position, outside the very top teams draft other players than other teams would have, etc... but that just show how little they could have got for Fedorov (assuming the Canes are higher in the standing), not worth loosing a single cup.

A franchise dream to pick-up a single Fedorov level player with 5 first round draft pick in the late 90s-early 00s.

 

[GMR]

I can remember that year. Fedorov still played in the Olympics in Nagano. He did not have an NHL contract at that time. He got it shortly after that. If I recall the offer sheet from Carolina meant Detroit got 5 1st round picks. In my personal opinion, as great as Fedorov was to the success of that team, especially in the playoffs, Detroit was better off had he gone to Carolina. Offer sheets were crazy back then, just look at Chris Gratton at the same time. I don't think Detroit wins the Cup without Fedorov in 1998, but all they needed was a trade deadline acquisition and I think they would have been fine. By 2002 when the won their other one sure Fedorov is a big part of it but by then they'd have 4 of the 5 first round picks and no doubt those players help them win. I remember Scotty Bowman saying that they wanted to win now, and that in the future he wasn't going to be there anyways. So that's why they matched the offer. I guess the results speak for themselves though with the two Cups afterwards.

Winning 2 Cups justifies losing all those draft picks.

Plus, Ken Holland is the most overrated GM in history and his draft record in the first several rounds is abysmal.

 

[Jim MacDonald]

Just to address the title, for the sake of clarity, Sergei Fedorov did not hold out.

A hold out requires a player to have a contract that they are not going to honour, so they "hold out."

Sergei Fedorov was a restricted free agent who couldn't come to terms with Detroit on a new pact. He obviously can't hold out if he doesn't even have a contract. Fedorov ultimately missed 59-games before he signed an offer-sheet with Carolina which famously included a "poison pill" should Fedorov's team reach the Conference Finals in the form of $12 million bonus.

See here, I'm VERY glad I posted to be educated on the correct description of what transpired (e.g. not a "holdout" just the expiration of a current contract with no new contract terms agreed for quite a while!).

 

[Brodeur]

WINGS’ FEDOROV REPORTEDLY SEEKING TRADE

As contract negotiations continue, Detroit Red Wings center Sergei Fedorov has reportedly asked for a trade from the defending Stanley Cup champions. NHL sources said Fedorov requested a trade on A…

www.chicagotribune.com

I didn't recall that Fedorov had requested a trade ahead of training camp. This snippet mentions that Detroit was offering 5 million.

As contract negotiations continue, Detroit Red Wings center Sergei Fedorov has reportedly asked for a trade from the defending Stanley Cup champions.

NHL sources said Fedorov requested a trade on Aug. 26 and then again last week, Booth News Service reported Thursday.

Red Wings General Manager Ken Holland has declined to elaborate on the progress of negotiations with Fedorov’s agent, Michael Barnett.

“When something is going to happen, I don’t know,” he said before the opening of training camp this week.

According to Booth, Holland is hoping Fedorov will capitulate rather than lose the $5 million he could receive.

Fedorov Might Sit Out Season

Restricted free agent Sergei Fedorov says he is prepared to sit out the season if that's what it takes for him to get the contract he wants from the Detroit Red Wings.

www.latimes.com

Found this article from January 1998:

The Russian center reportedly is seeking a $6-million-a-year salary in a four-year contract. The Red Wings reportedly have offered $5 million a year over four years.

 

[Crosby2010]

See here, I'm VERY glad I posted to be educated on the correct description of what transpired (e.g. not a "holdout" just the expiration of a current contract with no new contract terms agreed for quite a while!).

I guess if you think of the term "holdout" you think of someone like Alexei Yashin. Someone who held out while under contract. As I am sure you know, Yashin held out an entire season while under contract, went to court to fight it, lost in court, and then came back to Ottawa for one season before he got traded for what would be Spezza and Chara. I know Yashin is considered a decent guy outside of hockey, but that was such an incredibly selfish thing he did back in the day. I loathed him for that.

Fedorov was just like other free agents at that time. Kariya was a free agent at the same time he was. Unrestricted though, both of them. I wouldn't call them "holdouts" either. But there was a lot of craziness happening at that time. People forget that Sakic of all people was nearly a New York Ranger in the summer of 1997. The Avs had to match the offer the Rangers had for him. I don't know what Sakic was thinking, because that would have been disastrous going to NYR. They were a colossal mess post-1997. But he almost did. And Fedorov almost became a Cane. Is he a HHOFer if he does this or is he considered a marginal one?

 

[Crocodiligator]

The ugliest part of that whole thing was that Fedorov signed the offer sheet from Ilitch’s personal enemy while Mike was on a life support machine after his second (third?) open heart surgery. That’s why his number will never be retired in Detroit. And to be honest it shouldn’t be because of that.

 

[Theokritos]

Just to address the title, for the sake of clarity, Sergei Fedorov did not hold out.

A hold out requires a player to have a contract that they are not going to honour, so they "hold out."

Sergei Fedorov was a restricted free agent who couldn't come to terms with Detroit on a new pact. He obviously can't hold out if he doesn't even have a contract.

Kudos for pointing that out. If one wants to call him, an RFA, a "hold-out" for not coming to terms with Detroit Red Wings,
then Detroit Red Wings were equally "hold-outs" for not coming to terms with him. Nice headline, eh? "Red Wings are contract holdouts, negotiations with star player come to a halt"

That is not an attack on the OP who has been transparent from the get-go and willing to learn about the situation. But it goes to show how the media (feel free to add nuance if I'm painting with too broad a brush here) tends to adopt the owner's point of view by default.

I don't know what Sakic was thinking, because that would have been disastrous going to NYR.

I hear you, but $21 million ($40 million in today's money) and playing with the GOAT for some time sounds pretty tempting.

 

[Albatros]

The ugliest part of that whole thing was that Fedorov signed the offer sheet from Ilitch’s personal enemy while Mike was on a life support machine after his second (third?) open heart surgery. That’s why his number will never be retired in Detroit. And to be honest it shouldn’t be because of that.

Hard to see why Fedorov should have left millions on the table just because two owners had beef with one another. Besides Fedorov used a significant part of his gains (the entire 1998-99 salary) for charitable purposes in Detroit. Ilitch had the right to be salty, but anything particularly ugly there wasn't about this. He also ran his own businesses like a business.

 

[The Panther]

Fedorov was just like other free agents at that time. Kariya was a free agent at the same time he was. Unrestricted though, both of them. I wouldn't call them "holdouts" either. But there was a lot of craziness happening at that time. People forget that Sakic of all people was nearly a New York Ranger in the summer of 1997. The Avs had to match the offer the Rangers had for him. I don't know what Sakic was thinking...

Here's what Sakic was thinking:

I mean, it was the late-1990s. Hockey players who'd grown up from the mid-70s through the 80s, hoping to make $80,000 as pro-hockey stars, were now looking at $5 to $10 million a year as a reward for an 85-point season. As George W. Bush might say, there was a lot of player-agent strategery in getting the biggest contracts possible.

Kariya always seemed to me a guy who really chased the money. And, frankly, that might have been good as he suffered a couple career-threatening injuries due to the size-fetish era.

Fedorov had his cars and his girlfriends to pay for.

 

[GMR]

The ugliest part of that whole thing was that Fedorov signed the offer sheet from Ilitch’s personal enemy while Mike was on a life support machine after his second (third?) open heart surgery. That’s why his number will never be retired in Detroit. And to be honest it shouldn’t be because of that.

Really? It's a business. Mike Ilitch could have traded Fedorov to the Flames if he wanted. 25 years later, there shouldn't be any hard feelings. Fedorov has returned for many Red Wings reunions over the years.

They haven't retired his number because the organization doesn't retire many numbers. It took Red Kelly forever to have his ceremony.

 

[Crocodiligator]

No, gentlemen, it’s not about the business here. You can change teams and sign offer sheets as many times as you desire. That’s totally okay and fair. But not when the guy who tried to treat you like his son is in coma after a heart surgery. Also during those 5 months of his not-really-a-hold-out Sergei said many things that he simply shouldn’t have. He said that other players were jealous of him. He said that Yzerman asked Scotty to reduce his ice time. He could have simply said that he didn’t felt like at home in Detroit anymore. Or that he felt it was unfair to offer him so little money. But he said that Detroit was not a place where he wanted to live his life. I perfectly remember Draper saying in one of the interviews something like “… The boys in the locker room have A LOT of questions to Sergei regarding all this BS he keeps saying to reporters”. And only then the Karamanos thing happened.

 

[Brodeur]

People forget that Sakic of all people was nearly a New York Ranger in the summer of 1997. The Avs had to match the offer the Rangers had for him. I don't know what Sakic was thinking, because that would have been disastrous going to NYR. They were a colossal mess post-1997. But he almost did.

Sakic had only been in Colorado for a couple years, so he didn't have firm roots there yet. Like a lot of offer sheets of the late 90's, it came with a big signing bonus intended as a poison pill if a team matched. Sakic's offer sheet came with a 15 million dollar signing bonus and there's an upcoming ESPN doc about how the Avs came up with the money due to one of the owners being a producer of Air Force One.

The Rangers were fresh off an Eastern Conference Final appearance in 1997. In the moment they probably didn't appear to be a mess albeit they had been a #5 seed.

 

[MadLuke]

To add to the they had been a good franchise for most of the 90s until that summer, from 1992 to 1997 the rangers missed the playoff once, they were third in wins behind only the pens-wings, both in the regular season and playoffs, had Gretzky, etc...

Seeing in advance that the Grezky-Leetch (28 years old at the time)-Richter (30)-Graves(28) Rangers would be a mess would have been quite something.

Specially the Rangers with a leader and franchise player like Sakic in the FA world and deep pocket instead of sadly injured Lafontaine, it could be a very different story, if leadership exist at all and mean anything in the NHL, can the team with one of the best captain and resource end up a constant mess ?

 

[Brodeur]

Kariya always seemed to me a guy who really chased the money. And, frankly, that might have been good as he suffered a couple career-threatening injuries due to the size-fetish era.

Kariya took a big discount to play for Colorado that one season. I guess I never associated Kariya with necessarily being greedy, it just was a function of the time.

Then he was runner up for Hart just as the money was exploding around the league. Sakic got his 7 mil AAV in July '97. Kariya eventually signed a 2 year deal for 7 mil AAV in December '97. The bad thing for Anaheim was that they backloaded the deal with 8.5 million for 1997-98, so Kariya had a big QO from that point forward. And then money leaguewide kept escalating. Kariya's next contract came on the heels of his final 100 point season. Unfortunately for Anaheim, Disney soon pivoted and wanted to pare down payroll and eventually put the team up for sale.

I vaguely recall that Martin Brodeur got flack from the NHLPA for taking a discount on some of his contracts. There was pressure on the top guys to get as much as they could so other players could use that for leverage.

 

[MadLuke]

Kariya took a big discount to play for Colorado that one season. I guess I never associated Kariya with necessarily being greedy, it just was a function of the time.

I remember people at the time saying it was a calculated move to be FA under the new upcoming CBA to optimise career revenue, but I imagine it was speculative

 

[Brodeur]

I remember people at the time saying it was a calculated move to be FA under the new upcoming CBA to optimise career revenue, but I imagine it was speculative

That was one factor, there was Group V free agency in that CBA which ended up not surviving into the 2005 CBA. If Kariya made less than the average salary (he signed for 1.2 mil), then he'd be UFA again in summer 2004. For summer 2003, the Group V threshold was 1.79 mil and would end up being 1.83 mil for 2004.

I don't know if agents could have anticipated the cold market that summer as the owners were bunkering in for the lockout. I always took that as Kariya wanting to keep his options open rather than trying to maximize money. Anaheim offered him more in the short term after they turned down his 10 mil QO in 2003. But the allure of playing on a super team (on paper) with his BFF Selanne for a season seemed like a fun idea.

Edit - Old Group V lists:

2003 NHL free agent list

A team-by-team list of NHL free agents.

a.espncdn.com

Group V
The following players: (i) have completed 10 pro seasons or more (NHL or Minors, excluding Junior hockey), and (ii) in the 2002-2003 season earned less than the League average salary of $1,790,209 and (iii) received a timely qualifying offer.

These players have the right to elect once in their careers to become unrestricted Free Agents. Should one of these players not elect to become an unrestricted Free Agent, since his prior club has tendered him a qualifying offer he shall remain subject to draft choice compensation and right to match as applies to Group II Free Agents. The players listed below have until July 15, 2003 to elect Group V status.

NHL releases free agents list

The list of players who became free agents on July 1 as released by the National Hockey League.

www.espn.com

Potential Group V free agents
The following players: (i) have completed 10 pro seasons or more (NHL or minors, excluding junior hockey), and (ii) in the 2003-2004 season earned less than the league average salary of $1,830,126 and (iii) received a timely qualifying offer.

These players have the right to elect once in their careers to become unrestricted Free Agents. Should one of these players not elect to become an unrestricted Free Agent, since his prior club has tendered him a qualifying offer he shall remain subject to draft choice compensation and right to match as applies to Group II free agents. The players listed below have until July 15, 2004 to elect Group V status.

COLORADO: Paul Kariya (elected Group V).

 

[WarriorofTime]

The ugliest part of that whole thing was that Fedorov signed the offer sheet from Ilitch’s personal enemy while Mike was on a life support machine after his second (third?) open heart surgery. That’s why his number will never be retired in Detroit. And to be honest it shouldn’t be because of that.

So Federov should just leave money on the table because the billionaire trying to short change him had a medical event? Think of the children!

 

[Voight]

I can remember that year. Fedorov still played in the Olympics in Nagano. He did not have an NHL contract at that time. He got it shortly after that. If I recall the offer sheet from Carolina meant Detroit got 5 1st round picks. In my personal opinion, as great as Fedorov was to the success of that team, especially in the playoffs, Detroit was better off had he gone to Carolina. Offer sheets were crazy back then, just look at Chris Gratton at the same time. I don't think Detroit wins the Cup without Fedorov in 1998, but all they needed was a trade deadline acquisition and I think they would have been fine. By 2002 when the won their other one sure Fedorov is a big part of it but by then they'd have 4 of the 5 first round picks and no doubt those players help them win. I remember Scotty Bowman saying that they wanted to win now, and that in the future he wasn't going to be there anyways. So that's why they matched the offer. I guess the results speak for themselves though with the two Cups afterwards.

Sakic as well with the Rangers.

To this day Fedorov's salary in 1998 is an NHL record. It's going to be a longtime before that's broken. It was over 3x what MackInnon is being paid for comparisons sake.

(believe it was somewhere around $38 million)

Kariya took a big discount to play for Colorado that one season. I guess I never associated Kariya with necessarily being greedy, it just was a function of the time.

Then he was runner up for Hart just as the money was exploding around the league. Sakic got his 7 mil AAV in July '97. Kariya eventually signed a 2 year deal for 7 mil AAV in December '97. The bad thing for Anaheim was that they backloaded the deal with 8.5 million for 1997-98, so Kariya had a big QO from that point forward. And then money leaguewide kept escalating. Kariya's next contract came on the heels of his final 100 point season. Unfortunately for Anaheim, Disney soon pivoted and wanted to pare down payroll and eventually put the team up for sale.

I vaguely recall that Martin Brodeur got flack from the NHLPA for taking a discount on some of his contracts. There was pressure on the top guys to get as much as they could so other players could use that for leverage.

There still is. MackInnon begrudgingly took $12.6/year on his new contract to slightly raise the bar for the leagues best players. He was willing to take a lot less but the NHLPA won that battle.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

The ugliest part of that whole thing was that Fedorov signed the offer sheet from Ilitch’s personal enemy while Mike was on a life support machine after his second (third?) open heart surgery. That’s why his number will never be retired in Detroit. And to be honest it shouldn’t be because of that.

That's some Jerry Jones levels of pettiness. Actually, even Jerry Jones eventually came around on Jimmy Johnson, so congrats to the Wings for being more petty than Jerry Jones.

 

[Crosby2010]

No, gentlemen, it’s not about the business here. You can change teams and sign offer sheets as many times as you desire. That’s totally okay and fair. But not when the guy who tried to treat you like his son is in coma after a heart surgery. Also during those 5 months of his not-really-a-hold-out Sergei said many things that he simply shouldn’t have. He said that other players were jealous of him. He said that Yzerman asked Scotty to reduce his ice time. He could have simply said that he didn’t felt like at home in Detroit anymore. Or that he felt it was unfair to offer him so little money. But he said that Detroit was not a place where he wanted to live his life. I perfectly remember Draper saying in one of the interviews something like “… The boys in the locker room have A LOT of questions to Sergei regarding all this BS he keeps saying to reporters”. And only then the Karamanos thing happened.

I think a lot of things get said in the heat of the moment. They had years to rectify it, and they certainly would have I assume. Detroit won the Cup that spring, then again in 2002. Draper was there, Yzerman was there, Bowman and Illitch were still there. My guess is they buried the hatchet right away in 1998 when the contract was signed. I am sure they cleared the air behind closed doors. These guys went through a lot together.

I did a quick search, and for a franchise with so much success I was surprised the Wings only have 8 retired numbers. Sawchuk, Kelly, Lidstrom, Howe, Lindsay, Abel, Delvecchio, Yzerman. I would guess Fedorov is the player who would deserve to get it next. It isn't as if there are ones less deserving than him. Those are some pretty hefty names I think. I am thinking maybe Marcel Pronovost is a guy that could get it ahead of him, but even then probably not.

To add to the they had been a good franchise for most of the 90s until that summer, from 1992 to 1997 the rangers missed the playoff once, they were third in wins behind only the pens-wings, both in the regular season and playoffs, had Gretzky, etc...

Seeing in advance that the Grezky-Leetch (28 years old at the time)-Richter (30)-Graves(28) Rangers would be a mess would have been quite something.

Specially the Rangers with a leader and franchise player like Sakic in the FA world and deep pocket instead of sadly injured Lafontaine, it could be a very different story, if leadership exist at all and mean anything in the NHL, can the team with one of the best captain and resource end up a constant mess ?

Funny thing is, I didn't think the Rangers were going to be contenders at that time post-1997. When they lost Messier that was a big blow. I didn't think they'd take a nosedive and then not make the playoffs until 2006 despite having such a high payroll, but I can remember in the summer of 1997 not understanding why Sakic would even risk leaving Colorado to go to a team that won't win the Cup. He's leaving Forsberg and Roy here. I guess for me it just didn't make sense.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I did a quick search, and for a franchise with so much success I was surprised the Wings only have 8 retired numbers. Sawchuk, Kelly, Lidstrom, Howe, Lindsay, Abel, Delvecchio, Yzerman. I would guess Fedorov is the player who would deserve to get it next. It isn't as if there are ones less deserving than him. Those are some pretty hefty names I think. I am thinking maybe Marcel Pronovost is a guy that could get it ahead of him, but even then probably not.

yes, they are rather stingy historically. The Blackhawks, another Original Six Franchise, have historically been as well. On Sunday, Chris Chelios will be the 9th player to have his jersey retired. Marian Hossa had his jersey retired a year and a half ago to be just the 8th. One expects Toews, Kane and Keith will join their ranks soon enough.