Why Did Atlanta Flames Move To Calgary?

[NASCL]

I thought it was purely financial but a former NHL player told me today that it was somehow related to the NHL pension scandal, something about the then owner, Mr. Cousins, being bullied into the move by the NHL Board of Governors because he knew something about the pension shenanigans.

Convoluted, I know, but this was how it was told to me. Anyone know anything on this matter?

Thanks.

 

[TasteofFlames]

The logical answer would be that owner Tom Cousins was bleeding money on his construction projects, and old the team for a then record $16 million to help cover his debts. But, I listened to an interview last year during the Thrashers move, and the player interviewed (former ATL Flame) said something similar. I.E. it was either get involved in the scandal of GTFO. I can't remember the player, the interviewer, or the radio station, but the gist was that Cousins sold the team because he didn't want to rob the players. I'll do some snooping and see what I can find.

edit: The player is Dan Bouchard.

here's a blogpost that mentions it:http://thetrolleytracks.blogspot.com/2011/06/atlanta-doesnt-support-hockey-myth.html

Here's the important bit:

Dan Bouchard, a former Flames player who retained his home in Atlanta and moved back here after his career was over, recently revealed in an interview on Canada's TSN Radio (http://www.tsn.ca/window/podcastcen...//podcast.tsn.ca/tsnradio/bouchard_051611.mp3) that the sale of the Flames came as a complete surprise, and only came about because the other owners wanted Flames' majority owner Tom Cousins out of the league (Flames Goalie Dan Bouchard Again Attacks Atlanta Thrashers Ownership). Why? Because he was causing trouble for them. He noticed that something didn't look right with the finances, and had Equifax look over the books. It was discovered that the league was pilfering from the players' pension funds (a scandal that MANY years later resulted in the first executive director of the NHL Players Association Alan Eagleson being sent to jail and kicked out of the Hockey Hall Of Fame). The other owners didn't want to hear about it, and Cousins wanted no part of it. Since he refused to be involved in it, and the other owners wanted him out before he got everyone in trouble, he sold the team and the league approved the sale and relocation as fast as they could. Lack of attendance or "fan support" had absolutely ZERO to do with it.

I'm still having trouble finding the actual interview.

 

[NASCL]

The logical answer would be that owner Tom Cousins was bleeding money on his construction projects, and old the team for a then record $16 million to help cover his debts. But, I listened to an interview last year during the Thrashers move, and the player interviewed (former ATL Flame) said something similar. I.E. it was either get involved in the scandal of GTFO. I can't remember the player, the interviewer, or the radio station, but the gist was that Cousins sold the team because he didn't want to rob the players. I'll do some snooping and see what I can find.

edit: The player is Dan Bouchard.

here's a blogpost that mentions it:http://thetrolleytracks.blogspot.com/2011/06/atlanta-doesnt-support-hockey-myth.html

Here's the important bit:


I'm still having trouble finding the actual interview.

Tasteoff- Thanks for that and, yes, it was Bouchard I spoke to yesterday for an article I'm writing on him. We were just talking generic Atlanta material and then he mentioned that - something I was completely unaware of.

I'm going to keep digging myself. Thanks again!

Nice guy, by the way.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Wow. I've never heard this angle on the Flames before.

If true, this would seem to be a major story not just for the NHL, but pro sports in general...

 

[NASCL]

Wow. I've never heard this angle on the Flames before.

If true, this would seem to be a major story not just for the NHL, but pro sports in general...

That's what kind of shocked me-- that it never really "came out."

He told me his then-agent noticed something irregular and brought it to his attention. Bouchard then brought it to Cousins' attention while playing golf in the offseason.

His agent is in the Boston area (where I live) and I'm trying to track him down for additional info.

 

[Hoser]

The Atlanta Flames moved to Calgary because the owner was losing money hand over fist in Atlanta, and the highest bids from prospective owners came from two groups who wanted to move the team to Calgary. This article claims Cousins' ownership group had lost $1.7 million in '78-'79 and $2.8 million in '79-'80. That doesn't sound like a lot now but it was a lot then.


The Atlanta ownership group went as far as to monkey with the team's corporate structure in order to eke out some savings from a tax dodge: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=jMYvAAAAIBAJ&sjid=yjIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3578,690839, http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=HnVkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MX4NAAAAIBAJ&pg=4140,2697803


U.S. Olympic hero Jim Craig joined the Flames immediately after winning the gold medal and had this to say about the fan support in Atlanta: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Ei1eAAAAIBAJ&sjid=kV8NAAAAIBAJ&pg=4610,4088010



Actor Glenn Ford offered around $8 million to buy the team and keep it in Atlanta while the Seaman brothers (Byron, Donald and Doc) offered $14 million and were intent on moving the team to Calgary. In the end Nelson Skalbania (former co-owner of the Oilers and Indianapolis Racers; the man who signed Wayne Gretzky to his first pro contract and sold it to the Oilers for a pittance) offered $16 million, with the intent to move the team to Calgary, to which Cousins accepted. Skalbania almost immediately sold a portion of the team to Byron and Doc Seaman, Ralph Scurfield, Normie Kwong, Norm Green and Harley Hotchkiss. The rest of the owners didn't want to do ongoing business with Skalbania (who had a reputation as a bit of a shyster) and bought out Skalbania's share soon after.


I've read posts from many people here asserting that Cousins was losing money on his real estate developments and that's what precipitated the sale but every contemporary report of the time said the team itself was bleeding money. I am wont to believe in conspiracy theories about Cousins's real estate misadventures and supposed discovery of improprieties between the NHL Board of Governors (to which Cousins belonged anyway!) and the NHLPA executive (read: Alan Eagleson) being the driving factors in his decision to sell the team. I find it far more likely the team was losing money.

 

[coo1beans]

The Atlanta Flames moved to Calgary because the owner was losing money hand over fist in Atlanta, and the highest bids from prospective owners came from two groups who wanted to move the team to Calgary. This article claims Cousins' ownership group had lost $1.7 million in '78-'79 and $2.8 million in '79-'80. That doesn't sound like a lot now but it was a lot then.


The Atlanta ownership group went as far as to monkey with the team's corporate structure in order to eke out some savings from a tax dodge: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=jMYvAAAAIBAJ&sjid=yjIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3578,690839, http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=HnVkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MX4NAAAAIBAJ&pg=4140,2697803


U.S. Olympic hero Jim Craig joined the Flames immediately after winning the gold medal and had this to say about the fan support in Atlanta: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Ei1eAAAAIBAJ&sjid=kV8NAAAAIBAJ&pg=4610,4088010



Actor Glenn Ford offered around $8 million to buy the team and keep it in Atlanta while the Seaman brothers (Byron, Donald and Doc) offered $14 million and were intent on moving the team to Calgary. In the end Nelson Skalbania (former co-owner of the Oilers and Indianapolis Racers; the man who signed Wayne Gretzky to his first pro contract and sold it to the Oilers for a pittance) offered $16 million, with the intent to move the team to Calgary, to which Cousins accepted. Skalbania almost immediately sold a portion of the team to Byron and Doc Seaman, Ralph Scurfield, Normie Kwong, Norm Green and Harley Hotchkiss. The rest of the owners didn't want to do ongoing business with Skalbania (who had a reputation as a bit of a shyster) and bought out Skalbania's share soon after.


I've read posts from many people here asserting that Cousins was losing money on his real estate developments and that's what precipitated the sale but every contemporary report of the time said the team itself was bleeding money. I am wont to believe in conspiracy theories about Cousins's real estate misadventures and supposed discovery of improprieties between the NHL Board of Governors (to which Cousins belonged anyway!) and the NHLPA executive (read: Alan Eagleson) being the driving factors in his decision to sell the team. I find it far more likely the team was losing money.

LOL wow I'm snooping that old newspaper scan and the difference in prices are just amazing... 300 dollars a month to rent a 3 bedroom town home with utilities and furnished!

 

[kmad]

LOL wow I'm snooping that old newspaper scan and the difference in prices are just amazing... 300 dollars a month to rent a 3 bedroom town home with utilities and furnished!

*******. I live in Vancouver and $300 wouldn't get you a closet in your parents' basement.

 

[Killion]

Very interesting. Id heard this story myself back in the early 80's but sort of wrote it off as there was no way to verify it. When the suit against the league was finally launched, it never came up, and based on the Yeomans work Carl Brewer had undertaken in trying to turn over every stone from about 80-82 onward, where was Bouchard with this information back then, providing a fresh & fully smoking gun?. Still playing. Good reason to keep stum or no?.

 

[coo1beans]

*******. I live in Vancouver and $300 wouldn't get you a closet in your parents' basement.

Me too! I'm paying 1500/month for a 2 bedroom suite at knight and 57th.

 

[Killion]

Me too! I'm paying 1500/month for a 2 bedroom suite at knight and 57th.

Outrageous!. A fixer upper Vancouver Special Cracker Shack averaging 1.4M on the east side, even more on the west; 500K for a 400 sq ft condo. Just insane, and of course completely OT but ya, when we scan these old clips or even contemporary reports from around the NHL & catch glimpses of stuff like that sure does make you wanna cry....

 

[NASCL]

Tracked down another Flame for comment and found out that the owner, Cousins, asked his players to give back 10% of their salary so the team could remain in Atlanta. They agreed to the request.

The team bolts to Calgary and their 10% was never returned. The team's Brad Marsh was dating Cousins's daughter at the time and I guess they ganged up on him to no avail.

 

[NASCL]

Full story on Bouchard is now up,, For the record, I asked the other former Flames quoted in the article if they ever heard of Mr. Bouchard's version and none of them did.

http://www.theo6.com/

 

[HabsByTheBay]

Outrageous!. A fixer upper Vancouver Special Cracker Shack averaging 1.4M on the east side, even more on the west; 500K for a 400 sq ft condo. Just insane, and of course completely OT but ya, when we scan these old clips or even contemporary reports from around the NHL & catch glimpses of stuff like that sure does make you wanna cry....

Funny story. I live in London with my Londoner wife and we had an inkling to move to Vancouver. I've been a couple times and it was beautiful, and it sounded in theory like a good idea. Culturally somewhere between the US and the UK, with a more 'British' commitment to public services, but with NHL hockey and so on. Close to my parents in San Francisco, but not too close. Plus I have some family there (my uncle in Boston married a BC girl) who could provide some support if we moved there. She wasn't keen on moving to San Francisco and having my mom in her face, and neither of us were too keen on six feet of snow in the winter.

Then we looked at the real estate prices. I never thought I'd see a place that would make San Francisco and London, two of the most expensive places in the world, seem like a bargain. Christ, even in the Fraser Valley it was eye-wateringly expensive.

To get back on topic, here's my theory on the Flames:

Poor crowds and construction debt made Cousins sell, but the NHL were skeptical about allowing relocation. So he whispers to them that he'll blow the door on the pension fund, and they decide to reconsider.

 

[Jumptheshark]

With Bouchard we must remember that he can be a bit of a crack pot sometimes who --well he is a goalie was known for doing odd things in his career

I was only 11 when the move happened, but as i recall the ownership group was a joke and they were playing before 1/3 full arena--which is never good

 

[zetajerk]

With Bouchard we must remember that he can be a bit of a crack pot sometimes who --well he is a goalie was known for doing odd things in his career

I was only 11 when the move happened, but as i recall the ownership group was a joke and they were playing before 1/3 full arena--which is never good

I've been thinking about this lately.

Looking at attendance figures, they weren't doing horrible. There's other teams that did worse in their first years in the league, particularly Pittsburgh, LA, Rockies, Washington, KC.

I can't help but feel like the plug was pulled way too soon. I don't buy the Canadian revisionist propaganda "No one cared about hockey in Atlanta, so they left."

1/3 of the Omni would be like less than 5000/game

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=4680 Flames
http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=7475 Penguins
http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=6664 Kings
http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=8871 Washington

 

[Killion]

I can't help but feel like the plug was pulled way too soon.

I'm certain of it, absolutely they did just that, facilitated & enabled the sale. Most importantly Cousins wasnt about to take a huge haircut on the sale to local interests, Skalbania offering nearly double so from that perspective a no-brainer. But overall, in terms of the NHL "footprint" and future, losing Atlanta back then was a huge loss for the league & one they never really recovered from. It was hoped of course that Turner & the Thrashers would be able to pickup where things were prematurely severed however we know how that all turned out. So not just once but twice now, really badly handled, essentially forced out of the market.

 

[Big Phil]

Either way, what a lousy place to try and expand. I never understood how Hamilton could be waiting for an NHL team but they let Atlanta try - again - in 1999 only to see them fail 12 years later.

The sad thing is, 25 years from now they'll get a third crack at it.

 

[zetajerk]

Either way, what a lousy place to try and expand. I never understood how Hamilton could be waiting for an NHL team but they let Atlanta try - again - in 1999 only to see them fail 12 years later.

The sad thing is, 25 years from now they'll get a third crack at it.

Because Atlanta is a major city and actually matters in the grand scheme of things. Did you even read any of the thread or the links? I'm guessing not. The failures were hardly the people of Atlanta's fault.

The Flames left because the NHL owners were corrupt and strong-armed Cousins into selling. The Thrashers moved because their unwilling owners kicked them out.

 

[Killion]

Either way, what a lousy place to try and expand. I never understood how Hamilton could be waiting for an NHL team but they let Atlanta try - again - in 1999 only to see them fail 12 years later.

The sad thing is, 25 years from now they'll get a third crack at it.

Well, I rather disagree with you there Big Guy. Atlanta was back then & still today a center of corporate & media head offices, major heavyweights in that regard along with being one of the largest television markets in North America. Geographically & strategically as well, key to the South & Southeast. Whats important to remember however is that the only reason the Atlanta Flames came into being at all was because they had a nice new arena down there the WHA was eying & so in order to block them, granted a franchise along with Long Island who also had themselves a new building, the WHA desperate to get a foothold in the New York market. Despite that, the Atlanta Flames actually did fairly well & I believe could have succeeded but for the fact that Cousins had a financial meltdown of his real estate holdings, needed cash badly. The messy situation that then occurred 30yrs later with the Thrashers & Atlanta Spirit Group who effectively ran the franchise into the ditch once again a failure of ownership & the league itself rather than the market being a failure.... And with all that being said yes, I also agree with you about Hamilton but not in an "either or" comparison to Atlanta, Ottawa or Tampa, Phoenix or wherever. No question Hamilton could & should be home to an NHL Franchise (indeed, you could add the Hammer and another team to Toronto, say Markham, Pickering or even playing out of the ACC and they'd be Top 5 Revenue no problem) but thats a whole other subject, fodder for the Business of Hockey Board.

 

[Jumptheshark]

The Atlanta Flames moved to Calgary because the owner was losing money hand over fist in Atlanta, and the highest bids from prospective owners came from two groups who wanted to move the team to Calgary. This article claims Cousins' ownership group had lost $1.7 million in '78-'79 and $2.8 million in '79-'80. That doesn't sound like a lot now but it was a lot then.


The Atlanta ownership group went as far as to monkey with the team's corporate structure in order to eke out some savings from a tax dodge: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=jMYvAAAAIBAJ&sjid=yjIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3578,690839, http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=HnVkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MX4NAAAAIBAJ&pg=4140,2697803


U.S. Olympic hero Jim Craig joined the Flames immediately after winning the gold medal and had this to say about the fan support in Atlanta: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Ei1eAAAAIBAJ&sjid=kV8NAAAAIBAJ&pg=4610,4088010



Actor Glenn Ford offered around $8 million to buy the team and keep it in Atlanta while the Seaman brothers (Byron, Donald and Doc) offered $14 million and were intent on moving the team to Calgary. In the end Nelson Skalbania (former co-owner of the Oilers and Indianapolis Racers; the man who signed Wayne Gretzky to his first pro contract and sold it to the Oilers for a pittance) offered $16 million, with the intent to move the team to Calgary, to which Cousins accepted. Skalbania almost immediately sold a portion of the team to Byron and Doc Seaman, Ralph Scurfield, Normie Kwong, Norm Green and Harley Hotchkiss. The rest of the owners didn't want to do ongoing business with Skalbania (who had a reputation as a bit of a shyster) and bought out Skalbania's share soon after.


I've read posts from many people here asserting that Cousins was losing money on his real estate developments and that's what precipitated the sale but every contemporary report of the time said the team itself was bleeding money. I am wont to believe in conspiracy theories about Cousins's real estate misadventures and supposed discovery of improprieties between the NHL Board of Governors (to which Cousins belonged anyway!) and the NHLPA executive (read: Alan Eagleson) being the driving factors in his decision to sell the team. I find it far more likely the team was losing money.

I was always amused that a CANADIAN BORN ACTOR tried to keep a team in Atlanta

 

[Big Phil]

Well, I rather disagree with you there Big Guy. Atlanta was back then & still today a center of corporate & media head offices, major heavyweights in that regard along with being one of the largest television markets in North America. Geographically & strategically as well, key to the South & Southeast. Whats important to remember however is that the only reason the Atlanta Flames came into being at all was because they had a nice new arena down there the WHA was eying & so in order to block them, granted a franchise along with Long Island who also had themselves a new building, the WHA desperate to get a foothold in the New York market. Despite that, the Atlanta Flames actually did fairly well & I believe could have succeeded but for the fact that Cousins had a financial meltdown of his real estate holdings, needed cash badly. The messy situation that then occurred 30yrs later with the Thrashers & Atlanta Spirit Group who effectively ran the franchise into the ditch once again a failure of ownership & the league itself rather than the market being a failure.... And with all that being said yes, I also agree with you about Hamilton but not in an "either or" comparison to Atlanta, Ottawa or Tampa, Phoenix or wherever. No question Hamilton could & should be home to an NHL Franchise (indeed, you could add the Hammer and another team to Toronto, say Markham, Pickering or even playing out of the ACC and they'd be Top 5 Revenue no problem) but thats a whole other subject, fodder for the Business of Hockey Board.

Because Atlanta is a major city and actually matters in the grand scheme of things. Did you even read any of the thread or the links? I'm guessing not. The failures were hardly the people of Atlanta's fault.

The Flames left because the NHL owners were corrupt and strong-armed Cousins into selling. The Thrashers moved because their unwilling owners kicked them out.

It is a non-traditional market if there ever has been one that failed twice. Fool me once.........

 

[Trottier]

Wow. I've never heard this angle on the Flames before.

If true, this would seem to be a major story not just for the NHL, but pro sports in general...

My reaction too.

Someone should do some in-depth meaningful research. Where to start exactly, I don't know. A former player(s)' take, in and of itself is not the basis for a case, but it sure makes for a potentially delicious conspiracy theory.

 

[Killion]

It is a non-traditional market if there ever has been one that failed twice. Fool me once.........

Well.... now.... Phil? Beyond the obvious in Canada, the Northeastern US & Great Lakes region, Minnesota included, there all "non-traditional" and when hockey fails in those markets its not because the market failed hockey its because ownership and the league failed the market. With already 30 teams & the league poised to expand yet again by 2 teams and possibly adding another 2-4 within a decade, just where is the talent to supply these teams supposed to be coming from? Canada? Were already maxing out. Russia & the Scandinavians countries are all tapped pretty much & those players have alternatives to the NHL if their on the smaller side and or dont care for the defensive NHL game or whatever so yeah.

What needs to happen here is for teams like LA & Anaheim, Dallas & Phoenix, Florida, Nashville & Atlanta (though a little late now huh?) to be supporting in conjunction with the NHL & their sponsors along with the NHLPA the creation of infrastructure (arenas & leagues, clinics & camps etc) in these so called "non-traditional markets".... Over the past 50yrs all weve heard from the NHL in justifying these cash grab expansions are platitudes, "grow the game". Fine. Then howabout they start putting their money with their mouths and actually doing something about it instead of leaving it all up to often times intransigent owners & just expecting things to grow through osmosis. Doesnt work like that. At the same time, they needed (need) to shore up their foundations and that included a return to Winnipeg, and ya, they should be readmitting Quebec City and I believe they will be. Ive also long supported Hamiltons return but of course as we know, problematical for MLSE & Buffalo. Seattle & Portland should also be major priorities & they do appear to be so.

My reaction too.

Someone should do some in-depth meaningful research. Where to start exactly, I don't know. A former player(s)' take, in and of itself is not the basis for a case, but it sure makes for a potentially delicious conspiracy theory.

I believe its a conspiracy fact rather than theory however it was but one piece, just one of several contributing factors to Cousins wanting out. Quite a fascinating story really as are most that deal with the history of the leagues business practices & dealings, labor included going right on back to 1917 & the very creation of the NHL itself. Eddie Livingstone etc etc etc and on up through the decades. The more things change the more they really stay the same. Patterns repeating themselves just a lot more sophisticated than they once were. Almost like fashion or music; cyclical. And a game like hockey, the league itself, its not supposed to be "cyclical", permitted to be buffered, blown off-course by the vagaries of intransigence & inconsistencies, self dealing & duplicity. As "stewards of the game" total failures. Everyone deserves far better. Fans, players, sponsors, broadcasters, even any number of the truly decent owners past or present.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

It is a non-traditional market if there ever has been one that failed twice. Fool me once.........

You need to do some research as to why the Thrashers actually moved.

The fanbase in Atlanta has failed zero times. Fool me zero...