Which of the following scenarios would’ve been the best for Mario Lemieux’s legacy?

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Which of the following scenarios would’ve been the best for Lemieux’s legacy?

  • Option 1

    Votes: 5 17.2%
  • Option 2

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Option 3

    Votes: 22 75.9%

  • Total voters
    29

TheGuiminator

I’ll be damned King, I’ll be damned
Oct 23, 2018
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Mario Lemieux is widely regarded as one of the greatest players in NHL history, despite facing numerous health issues and injuries throughout his career. Despite all the what if’s, he still earned a place among the top 4 players of all time.

Which of the following alternate scenarios do you think would have pushed his legacy even further?

Option 1 : Never Two Without Three - Winning the Cup in 1993


In 1993, the Penguins were two-time defending Stanley Cup champions and heavy favorites to win the Cup, having won the President's Trophy with the most points in the league and finishing the regular season on a 17-game winning streak, an all-time record. The Islanders' victory over the Penguins is remembered as one of the most shocking upsets in NHL history. In this alternate universe, the Penguins would win Game 7 as expected and advance to the third round, facing Montreal and then, the LA Kings in the SCF.


Game 7 - Penguins vs Islanders

By the time the third period ended, the score is tied 3-3, and overtime looms, with the entire arena on edge.

With just over ten minutes gone in the overtime period, Lemieux wins a crucial faceoff in the Islanders’ zone, drawing the puck back to Larry Murphy at the point. Murphy quickly feeds it to Stevens, who protects the puck in front an Islanders’ defender before sliding the puck down low to Lemieux, stationed just to the right of the net. Lemieux, fakes a move to the inside, freezing Islanders’ goaltender Glenn Healy for just a moment. In a flash, Lemieux pulls the puck back to his forehand and roofs it over Healy’s glove, sending the puck into the top corner of the net. Lemieux had done it—he scores the overtime goal that not only won the game but also propels the Penguins to the third round of the playoffs.

1993 Eastern Conference Finals - Pittsburgh Penguins take on the Montreal Canadiens

After splitting the first two games, the Penguins takes control, winning the next three to clinch the series. Lemieux is absolutely unstoppable, 5 goals and eight assists, including a game-winning goal in the decisive Game 5. Despite the brilliance of Patrick Roy in net, they have no answer for Lemieux's dominance as Pittsburgh advanced to their third consecutive Stanley Cup Final.

Stanley Cup Final - An epic showdown between the Pittsburgh Penguins and the Los Angeles Kings

Two of hockey's greatest legends collide, Mario Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky. The series is a thrilling seven-game battle, with the spotlight squarely on the two superstars that captivate fans around the world.

The Penguins take an early 2-0 series lead, fueled by Lemieux's, as he puts up two goals and four assists in the first two games. The Kings, led by Gretzky, fight back to tie the series at 2-2, with Gretzky delivering a vintage performance. The tension escalate as both teams trade wins in Games 5 and 6, setting the stage for a winner-takes-all Game 7 in Pittsburgh.

In the decisive game, Lemieux is at his best, scoring twice and assisting on three other goals as the Penguins edge out the Kings in a 5-4 thriller to claim their third consecutive Stanley Cup. Lemieux finishes the series with an astounding 6 goals and 9 assists, bringing his playoff totals to a record-breaking 20 goals and 25 assists, 45 points and securing his third consecutive Conn Smythe Trophy as playoff MVP, something that’s never been done before. In a moment that transcends the sport, Gretzky skates over to Lemieux after the final whistle, offering a handshake and words of admiration, symbolically passing the torch to the new king of hockey.


Lemieux faced unimaginable challenges during the 1992-93 regular season. Diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma, he underwent radiation treatments, causing him to miss 24 games. Yet, in a testament to his incredible willpower, he returns to the ice and embarks on a legendary run, defying the odds to win the Art Ross Trophy with an astonishing 160 points in just 60 games. His comeback is one of the most remarkable in sports history. In this scenario, Lemieux not only follows it up with one of the greatest playoff performances ever but also breaks the record for goals in a single playoff run. Throughout the entire postseason, he delivers clutch performances, including crucial goals and assists in key moments that drive the Penguins' success. Lemieux wins his third consecutive Conn Smythe Trophy and leads the Penguins to their third straight Stanley Cup.

That being said, The rest of Lemieux’s career unfolds the same way as in real life.

Option 2 : A Successful comeback run (2000 to 2006)

Mario Lemieux’s comeback run was fill with ups and down, dealing with injury and being out most of the time the following seasons without adding much to his legacy aside of few dominant offensive stretches. Here’s how his comeback run pans out in this alternate universe.

2000-01 season : Legendary Comeback to the Cup Final

Lemieux’s spectacular regular season comeback remains unchanged. However, instead of being eliminated by the Devils in the 3rd round in game 5, the Penguins stage a comeback in Game 5, winning 5-4 to force a Game 6, which they also win, ultimately clinching the series in Game 7 after coming back from a 1-3 deficit to reach the Stanley Cup Final. Lemieux is clutch and finishes the series with 10 points in 7 games.

In the Stanley Cup Final, the Penguins face the Colorado Avalanche. Lemieux has an excellent series, recording 10 points in the in 7 games, but in an losing effort. Nonetheless, Lemieux finishes as the point leader of the playoffs with 15 goals, 19 assists, and 34 points but the Conn Smythe goes to Patrick Roy.

2001-02 : Olympic Glory and Late-Season Surge

With Jagr gone to Washington, the season is marred by injuries and inconsistent play, contributing to the team's struggles, as in real life. Lemieux suffers from a hip injury earlier in the season that causes him to miss significant time but makes a comeback for the Olympics, helping Canada win the Gold Medal. Lemieux then plays the remaining 24 games of the season, putting up an impressive stat line of 12 goals, 28 assists, and 40 points. He finishes the season with 18 goals, 53 assists, and 71 points in 48 games, good for 12th in the league. The Penguins still miss the playoffs, but Lemieux’s strong finish sets the stage for the next season.

2002-03 : Timeless Talent and Award Sweep

The first half of Lemieux’s season remains unchanged, as he dominates the league with 68 points in 40 games. In January, he misses a month of action due to a bad hip. When Mario returns, Kovalev is not traded and is still in the lineup. Lemieux picks up right where he left off. Instead of scoring 23 points in his final 27 games, he maintains his pace and puts up 45 points (13 goals, 32 assists), finishing the season with 112 points. He wins the Hart Trophy, Art Ross Trophy, and Lindsay Award, leading the Penguins into the playoffs. Penguins lose to the devils in the first round in 6 games, and Lemieux has a respectable 2 goals, 4 assists showing.

2003-04 : Hart Trophy Finalist in Team Struggles

Despite being one of the worst teams on paper in the Penguins’ history, Lemieux leads this awful squad to an overachieving season, as being surprisingly cohesive with the talent they have. Lemieux plays alongside Malone and Morozov on the top line, forming an unexpectedly effective offensive trio. The Penguins come heartbreakingly close to clinching a playoff spot, finishing just a few points shy. Even though they’re not make it to the playoffs , Lemieux’s contribution is recognized as he finishes as a Hart Trophy finalist and third in the scoring race with 28 goals, 56 assists, and 84 points in 70 games.

2005-06 : Lemieux’s Last Ride

At the start of the 2005-06 season, the Penguins have significantly improved their lineup by adding Crosby, Palffy, Recchi, Leclair, Roberts, and Gonchar. Despite these additions, they remain among the worst teams in the league, even with a strong roster of veterans and the young prodigy Crosby (yes they still win the lottery in 05)

In this scenario, Lemieux plays a little longer in his final season. Although there was a lockout in 2004-05, the 2003-04 season was tough on Lemieux, and at 40 years old, he starts to feel the effects of past seasons and the inevitable decline. However, he remains an effective power-play specialist and maintains respectable production relative to his standards. The team stays in the playoff hunt for half a season until Palffy is forced to retire, Recchi is traded, and Lemieux struggles with health problems, causing him to miss some time. His stats stand at 18 goals, 18 assists, and 36 points in 43 games before he is sidelined for a couple of months. With Crosby being a one-man army, he tries to keep the team in the playoff hunt, but their chances appear to slip away as the season closes, with a 13-14-2 record during Lemieux’s absence.

Lemieux makes a comeback in mid-March after missing almost 30 games, helping his team make a final push for the playoffs. Crosby and Lemieux start to heat up on the power play, which helps the Penguins secure some crucial victories. They finish the season with a 9-2-1 record, clinching 8th place in the Eastern Conference. Lemieux puts up 9 goals and 12 assists during this final stretch, ending the season with a total of 27 goals, 30 assists, and 57 points in 55 games. It In the first round of the playoffs, the Penguins are swept by the Ottawa Senators. With no gas left in the tank, Lemieux records 2 points in 4 games. He receives a big ovation on home ice after the Penguins are eliminated, marking his retirement for good.

In this comeback run, Lemieux retires with a grand total of 754 goals, 1,140 assists, and 1,894 points in 1,028 games, ranking him 2nd all-time in points behind Gretzky. His playoff totals also increase to 126 games, 88 goals, 107 assists, and 195 points, placing him 7th all-time. He adds another Conn Smythe-worthy performance in the spring of 2001, as well as an additional Hart Trophy, Art Ross Trophy, and Lindsay Award during his legendary 2002-03 season. Despite battling health issues and injuries throughout this run, Lemieux showcases his leadership when facing adversity. He does more with less, being the main reason the Penguins remain competitive and avoid falling apart despite having one of the worst rosters on paper.

Option 3 : A Relatively Healthy Career


In this scenario, Lemieux has a relatively healthy career—“relatively” being the key word. What I mean by that is I can’t envision Lemieux having a near-perfectly healthy career; that would imply he takes his health very seriously and trains exceptionally hard, which wouldn’t be realistic and wouldn’t reflect Lemieux’s true nature. In this alternate universe, he demonstrates slightly better self-awareness and takes a bit better care of himself, which leads to improved durability and allowing him to play a few more seasons in his mid 30’s

1984-85 to 1988-89 : The 200 Points Season

The first four seasons remain unchanged, except for 1988-89, when he plays a full season for the first and only time in his career, dressing in all 80 games and finishing with 93 goals, 118 assists, and 211 points. He not only captures the Art Ross, Hart, and Pearson Trophies in dominant fashion but also breaks Wayne Gretzky's record of 92 goals in a single season. The playoffs remain unchanged in all seasons.

1989-90 : Back Surgery

The season remains unchanged. Lemieux is leading the league in points with a 46-game point streak before going out in January 1990 due to a herniated disc in his back. Lemieux undergoes surgery to repair the herniated disc, and instead of coming back in early 1991, he takes the following season off to fully (or almost fully) recover.

1990-91 to 1992-93 : Lemieux's Strategic Rest and Triumphant Return

Instead of playing 26 games, Lemieux spends the entire 1990-91 season managing his back condition through rigorous physical therapy and rehabilitation. He returns to the lineup only during the 1991 playoffs and picks up right where he left off, maintaining the same playoff performance as in real life.

The next two seasons, 1991-92 and 1992-93, unfold the same way as they did in reality. In 1993, he is still diagnosed with Hodgkin’s lymphoma and undergoes treatment, including radiation therapy. The disease is likely a result of a combination of genetic and environmental factors beyond his control, so there was probably nothing he could have done to avoid it. Regardless, it just makes for a better storyline.

1993-1994 to 1994-1995: Two Years Strong

With his back in better condition, Lemieux doesn’t undergo a second surgery to repair his herniated disc in July 1993. This allows him to play most of the 1993-94 season, where he has another legendary season, finishing with 75 goals, 97 assists, and 172 points in 70 games, an incredible 42 points ahead of second-place Gretzky. He wins the Hart, Art Ross, and Pearson Trophies for the second year in a row. His playoff stats remain unchanged.

Moving on to the summer of 1994, Lemieux gets lucky with his health, avoiding the anemia that caused him to miss the entire 1994-95 season in real life. The 1994-95 season is shortened to just 48 games due to a lockout, and Lemieux captures another Art Ross Trophy with 36 goals, 44 assists, and 80 points in just 36 games. However, he loses the Hart Trophy to Lindros due to voter fatigue, but still wins the Pearson Award. Pittsburgh have a good run in the playoffs, reaching the conference final. They eliminate the Washington Capitals in the first round in 7 games, defeat New Jersey in 6 games, but ultimately lose to the Flyers in 6. Lemieux leads the league in playoffs with 29 points in 19 games, despite playing only 3 rounds.

1995-96 and 1996-97 : Perpetual Dominance and No Retirement

The next two seasons remain the same as in real life. The difference is that Lemieux doesn’t announce his retirement at the end of the 1997 season. He continues to play through the remainder of his six-year contract, which expires at the end of the 1997-98 season.


1997- 1998 : Battling the Dead puck Era

The Dead Puck Era is in full swing. Gone are the days of high-flying offenses and astronomical point totals, it is now replaced by a new emphasis on defensive play, trapping systems, and goaltending excellence. As in 1996-97, Lemieux continues to see a drop-off in his point production, while his teammate Jagr, who’s in his prime, is slowly becoming Mario’s equal offensively. They go back and forth in the scoring race for a good part of the season. Lemieux finishes with 40 goals, 47 assists, and 107 points in 72 games, compared to Jagr’s 102 points in 77 games. Lemieux wins his 7th consecutive Art Ross Trophy, bringing his total to 9. However, it isn’t enough to outshine Hasek, who remains the MVP of the league. Pittsburgh finishes first in the Northeast Division and takes on the Montreal Canadiens in the first round. Despite being heavy favorites, Pittsburgh loses in 6 games, with Montreal pulling off the upset. Lemieux has an unusually poor performance, recording only 5 points in 6 games.

1998-1999: A Final Shot—Contract Extension and Cup Ambitions

Lemieux’s contract expires at the end of the 1997-98 season, and he seriously considers retirement due to the cumulative effects of his injuries, cancer, and the grind of long hockey seasons that have left him physically and mentally exhausted. However, with the playoffs ending on such a sour note, Lemieux decides he doesn’t want to conclude his career on such a low point. Negotiations drag on longer than expected, but Lemieux signs a two-year deal to redeem himself after his disappointing playoff performance.

Due to the extended period of reflection and contract negotiations, Lemieux misses the first 22 games of the season and returns to the lineup in early December 1998. He pairs with Jaromir Jagr, who is at his absolute peak, having a career-defining season. Initially, Lemieux takes some time to regain his footing and timing, starting slowly with 18 points in his first 20 games. However, he heats up as the season progresses, racking up 73 points in his next 40 games. He finishes the season with 38 goals, 53 assists, and 91 points in 60 games. Lemieux ends the season 8th in overall points and 2nd in points per game, trailing only behind his teammate Jagr, who has a career year with 47 goals, 93 assists, and 140 points, earning him the Art Ross, Hart, and Pearson awards.

It’s now playoff time, and Lemieux has a lot to prove to himself as he wants to end his career on a high note. Pittsburgh isn't as strong as they were the previous year in the standings, barely making the playoffs. In the first round, they face the Devils. The Penguins rally from a 0-2 series deficit, delivering a stunning upset and winning the series in 7 games. Moving on to the second round, the Penguins take on the Toronto Maple Leafs and defeat them in six games. In the Eastern Conference Finals, the Penguins face the Buffalo Sabres. They ultimately get shut down by Hasek and the Sabres in five games in a defensive-oriented series. Lemieux puts up 20 points in 18 games but remains unsatisfied with the outcome of the playoffs.

1999-2000: Farewell Season

Before the season starts, Lemieux announces that this will be his final season. As the season progresses, Lemieux’s back issues begin bothering him again, causing him to miss some time. Jagr also goes down for a month due to injuries while leading the league with 86 points in 54 games. The season is going relatively well, but the Penguins need a bit more spark on defense. They end up acquiring Ray Bourque, who has requested a trade to a team with a better shot at winning the Cup before his career ends. Instead of going to Colorado, Lemieux pushes for a trade to bring Bourque to Pittsburgh. The Penguins send Kovalev, Rozsíval, a 1st-round pick in 2000, and a conditional 2nd-round pick in 2001 to Boston in exchange.

With both Lemieux and Jagr out of the lineup, the Penguins manage to remain in playoff contention. Coincidentally, Lemieux returns just as Bourque joins the lineup. Their chemistry is instant, with Lemieux racking up 30 points in his last 17 games, finishing the season with 87 points in 64 games. Jagr returns shortly after Bourque’s acquisition and wins back-to-back Art Ross Trophies with 103 points in 63 games. Bourque’s arrival breathes new life into the team, giving them all the momentum they need heading into the playoffs.

The Penguins enter the playoffs with a surge of confidence, facing off against the Washington Capitals in the first round. Pittsburgh dominates the series, sweeping the Capitals in four games.In the second round, the Penguins face a tougher challenge against the Philadelphia Flyers. After six hard-fought games, Pittsburgh wins the series 4-2, advancing to the Eastern Conference Finals. There, they meet the New Jersey Devils. Against all odds, the Penguins emerge victorious in a seven-game battle, winning the series 4-3 and advancing to the Stanley Cup Finals.

The Stanley Cup Finals showcase the Penguins against the Dallas Stars, the reigning champions. A red-hot Jagr finds another gear in this series, putting up 13 points and elevating Pittsburgh to victory in six games, capturing the Stanley Cup in a thrilling and hard-fought battle. Lemieux holds his own with 8 points in the Finals, marking his final playoff run with 28 points in 23 games. However, Jagr is the bus driver in this playoff run, putting up 36 points and earning the Conn Smythe Trophy.

As Pittsburgh celebrates their Stanley Cup victory, Lemieux, in a class act, gives Bourque the honor of lifting the Stanley Cup first. Now satisfied and at peace, Lemieux watches with a smile, knowing that he has accomplished everything he set out to do. He has redeemed himself from the disappointments of previous playoffs and ends his career by raising the Stanley Cup over his shoulders. With the torch now passed to Jagr, Lemieux takes one final lap with the Cup before skating off the ice, leaving the game on his own terms—as a champion, a leader, and a legend.


In this alternate universe, where Lemieux enjoys a healthier career, he finishes with a grand total of 809 goals, 1,142 assists, and 1,951 points in 1,000 games, placing him 2nd all-time in points and making him the all-time leader in points per game. His playoff numbers also increase, with 104 goals, 133 assists, and 237 points in 155 games, placing him 3rd all-time in playoff points. He adds 2 extra Hart Trophies (5 total), 3 extra Art Ross Trophies, winning 7 in a row from 1992 to 1998, for a total of 9, and 2 extra Pearson Awards (bringing the total to 5). By taking a step back during the 1990-91 season, he takes two steps forward, which helps prolong his longevity and add more elite seasons in the late 90’s. Lemieux’s presence also helps his team remain a contender, resulting in deep playoff runs in 1995, 1999, and finally 2000, where he retires on top with a 3rd Stanley Cup.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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it’s 3 obviously but man, winning in 1993 would do an awful lot for him. it would have given him such an undeniable peak (and the only post-islanders three peat). like shaq’s LA peak, completely unstoppable at a level unmatched by almost anyone ever, even if he couldn’t maintain it, physically or mentally.
 

buffalowing88

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Aug 11, 2008
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I wish Lemieux had played for the Montreal Canadiens.

I have been wracking my brain trying to figure out how this could have happened. If he winds up in Montreal after the first big break in his career, I think it's possible.

He probably knocks out the longevity of Howe at that point and becomes the clear 3 in the Big 4.

But it's just such a what-if.
 

Video Nasty

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Having a real life example that Lemieux over Gretzky fans could actually point to where the student bested the master would be certainly be compelling.

No matter how it would have played out, the hockey world was robbed of something special when the stars didn’t align for that 1993 SCF.

If he had another 400-600 games he would probably have approached Gretzky's point totals. Realistically I don't see how that isn't the best option.

He wouldn’t have, unless by approached, you mean at least 400 points off still.
 
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Stephen

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Having a real life example that Lemieux over Gretzky fans could actually point to where the student bested the master would be certainly be compelling.

No matter how it would have played out, the hockey world was robbed of something special when the stars didn’t align for that 1993 SCF.



He wouldn’t have, unless by approached, you mean at least 400 points off still.

I feel like the tragic impact of Leimeux's injuries, illness and years lost add to his legend though. Not that a 1500 games played, 22 year career with a boat load more points and extra championships, and more of the same awards would have diminished his story, but it's the adversity that makes it all so compelling. The gaps that allow for the space to dream of what could have been.
 

dr robbie

Let's Go Pens!
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My heart wants option 1 as that Volek goal in 93 still haunts me.

My brain wants option 3 as that is clearly the best career listed.
 

bobholly39

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I'm really enjoying those polls a lot OP. That being said - this seems like a slam dunk option 3 no?

Reading through option 3 I kept waiting for some huge negative to show up to counter the good, but it never did.
 

WalterLundy

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Can you prove that? If he gets 1000 points in 600 games(conservative) that puts him at ~2700 without accounting for increased performance with better health.
I’ll take a crack at this as I find it intriguing. Lemieux’s 2001-2006 would no longer exist in a scenario such as this. When he retired in 1996-97 he had played 12 seasons. He played in 745 of 972 games (1020 if you count 94-95). Gretzky’s own career was forever altered after his 12th season by the Gary Suter hit which took away 40 points per full season of production overnight turning him from a 170 point guy to 130 point guy over a full schedule. All of that even strength production as his game was predicated on that and would never be the same. He played in 925 of 960 games. Below is a comparison for their first 12 respective seasons.

First 12 seasons each

Gretzky
925 GP: 2142 P (2.32)

Lemieux:
745 GP: 1494 P (2.01)

180 games and 648 points separating them. Would need to average 3.6 points per game for multiple seasons worth of games to match which is impossible. If we also allow for Gretzky’s own what ifs then Lemieux would never come within 300 points of his career total. If we ignore that and just compare him to the actual Wayne who played his last 8 seasons an injured shell of his former self would be at least interesting to see how close it could be. From 88-97 in Lemieux’s prime he averaged 2.21 ppg in seasons he played over half the season. If we apply that ppg average to the missing 180 games then he is at 1892 in 925. Still 250 points back.

The dead puck era was about to take over the league in 97-98 and in this scenario Lemieux would have to play through that for the remainder of his career as his potential 20th season would now be 03-04 where the DPE ended. Lemieux averaged 1.61 in 1997 and in 2001 when he was active averaged 1.77 to Jagr’s 1.87 in too small of a sample size to take seriously for large scale projections. The leader in ppg from 1998-2004 was Jagr at 1.29. We can assume Lemieux would be a bit better than that so I’d say that 1.50 would be a good estimate for the range.

If he played the same percentage as his new altered games played from 85-97 (925 of 1020, 90.6%) then he gets an additional 521 games from 98-04. These games at 1.50 ppg (still insanely dominant for the overall period and frankly a bit generous) give him an additional 782 points putting his new career total at 2674 points in 1446 games (1.85 ppg). Still short of a non what if Gretzky by 183 points and 41 games but has now had a very healthy career and all of the what ifs. The gap would be between 300-450 if Gretzky got his what ifs as well but at least with Lemieux his get him closer to Gretzky than anyone else.
 
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TheGuiminator

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I'm really enjoying those polls a lot OP. That being said - this seems like a slam dunk option 3 no?

Reading through option 3 I kept waiting for some huge negative to show up to counter the good, but it never did.

Well, unlike my Gretzky one, where I might have gone a tad too far with the negatives in option 3 i believe, Neither of these scenarios have big knocks or negative outcomes

1: Lemieux wins three Conn Smythe Trophies in a row (most in history) each featuring an all-time great runs. He arguably has the best peak performance considering the '93 storyline along with the playoffs. The torch is passed by Gretzky in the handshake line.

2: He makes a dominant comeback after 3.5 years with an impressive showing in the playoffs. Then he carries bad to average Penguins teams while earning individual accolades. His leadership and resilience are cemented.

3: He enjoys a healthier career, with a few more peak seasons and hardware. However, he plays second fiddle to Jagr near the end of his career.

All three options elevate his legacy significantly, in my opinion.
 
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CharlestownChiefsESC

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My critique if you'd like to call it that of option 1 is that if they win in 93 Bowman stays. It was no secret that Mario and Scotty did not see eye to eye and if Bowman stays long term and uses his coaching philosophies there are Mario numbers lower and if the fo sides with Bowman does he potentially ask out of Pittsburgh.
 

Video Nasty

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Can you prove that? If he gets 1000 points in 600 games(conservative) that puts him at ~2700 without accounting for increased performance with better health.

How is 600 more games played conservative? At the time of his retirement in that new timeline, he would have played the 9th most games ever going that route, and a total of 1515 would still be good for 21st as of today.

What being conservative really looks like is recognizing that Gretzky got to every single point milestone quicker (100, 200, and so on), in terms of games played, and only built the gap over time, and acknowledging that Lemieux was always behind.

Being generous is giving Lemieux 277 fantasy points on his current total to get to 2000 points, ignoring that a lot of the missed games in this exercise are on the wrong side of 30, and still giving him 2.0 PPG, and seeing that it would have taken him 196 games more games to get there.

Being conservative (which I still believe is wildly generous) is giving Lemieux 500 more games at 1.5 PPG, and seeing him still 400 points behind Gretzky.

Remember, I quoted you saying 400-600 games, and you went right to the far end with 600. I went in the middle with 500. I went with 1.5 PPG because it’s what Gretzky averaged from age 28 on after Edmonton in 791 games.
 

MadLuke

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At the time of his retirement in that new timeline, he would have played the 9th most games ever going that route
That fair, but the nhl became a 80 game seasons in 1975, Mario start his career in 1985, ever can have a bigger emotional punch that what it means in that context.

If you look at the player group drafted around Lemieux, 1980 to 1990 say), 1446 games would be 17th, just above Scott Mellanby and below Selanne (someone that started late and had serious injuries).à


For the 83-84-85-86-87 draft class, 1446 games is number 4, below Shanahan-Yzerman-Wesley, it is optimistic, but someone that start at 19 like Lemieux we talking less than a full season than Vincent Damphousse more played. Damphousse had incredible health during his career but he played from 87 to 04, Lemieux has 2 season to do it.

Damphousse is an interesting case, he scored 384 points from 98 to 04, Lemieux scoring 782 would be a lot, for the old guy during that time frame:

Joe Sakic scored 582
Hull: 475
Shanahan: 465
Turgeon: 410
Robitaille: 408

Even Jagr did "only" 676
 

WalterLundy

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That fair, but the nhl became a 80 game seasons in 1975, Mario start his career in 1985, ever can have a bigger emotional punch that what it means in that context.

If you look at the player group drafted around Lemieux, 1980 to 1990 say), 1446 games would be 17th, just above Scott Mellanby and below Selanne (someone that started late and had serious injuries).à


For the 83-84-85-86-87 draft class, 1446 games is number 4, below Shanahan-Yzerman-Wesley, it is optimistic, but someone that start at 19 like Lemieux we talking less than a full season than Vincent Damphousse more played. Damphousse had incredible health during his career but he played from 87 to 04, Lemieux has 2 season to do it.

Damphousse is an interesting case, he scored 384 points from 98 to 04, Lemieux scoring 782 would be a lot, for the old guy during that time frame:

Joe Sakic scored 582
Hull: 475
Shanahan: 465
Turgeon: 410
Robitaille: 408

Even Jagr did "only" 676
Throughout the entirety of my Lemieux full health career hypothetical I was being extra generous especially in the 98-04 timeframe. I was doing it to illustrate that Lemieux would still be relatively far back from Gretzky (without any of his own what ifs). The number would most likely be lower than my projection. It was all for illustrative purposes.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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the thing i wonder about here is how long would a bizarro-world healthy mario play?

he just doesn’t feel remotely to me like a guy who if healthy would have stuck around and played forever. let’s use kirk muller as a comparable: same draft, same rookie year, reasonably healthy career until his body starts breaking down around 2000, age 33ish. retires after the 2003 season, his last game being the dallas loss to anaheim in the second round (unrelated: he was washed up af but he scored in his last game), ends up with 1,350 rs games, 56th all time and in the top 30 when he retired. robitaille and mellanby from that draft ended up passing him (1,430 games, tied for 32 all time, although ovechkin and burns will pass them imminently), each making it a little past the lockout, but they both started at age 20.

when you think about just how much hockey that is, the 600 extra mario games upthread seems downright impossible.

but there are several variables i’m not clear on:

- was mario a gary roberts situation where he needed to have his career end early to rededicate him later on? or was the later mario who actually seemed to want to play just the natural result of being an older, more mature person who understood time is something you don’t get back?

- related: is later career mario inevitable and would he have gutted it out because of some combination of wanting his kids to be able to watch him, the money just being too good to leave on the table, and the penguins owing him money that he could only recoup by propping the team’s value?

- and to what degree is the early/prime career whining and all the quitting and threatening to quit a product of his back issues, vs his personality in general?

but based on his behaviour through the middle half of his 20s, i would guess that the cumulative exhaustion from a decade of consecutive 70+ game seasons, plus the games steadily getting harder and sloggier through the 90s, would mean we’re probably seeing him walking away right when he actually did.
 

Staniowski

Registered User
Jan 13, 2018
3,785
3,400
The Maritimes
Better health for sure....though the wording and fantasizing of option 3 is unbelievably weird, so we should ignore that.

A relatively healthy Lemieux probably wins 15 consecutive scoring titles.
 

TheGuiminator

I’ll be damned King, I’ll be damned
Oct 23, 2018
2,064
1,824
the thing i wonder about here is how long would a bizarro-world healthy mario play?

he just doesn’t feel remotely to me like a guy who if healthy would have stuck around and played forever. let’s use kirk muller as a comparable: same draft, same rookie year, reasonably healthy career until his body starts breaking down around 2000, age 33ish. retires after the 2003 season, his last game being the dallas loss to anaheim in the second round (unrelated: he was washed up af but he scored in his last game), ends up with 1,350 rs games, 56th all time and in the top 30 when he retired. robitaille and mellanby from that draft ended up passing him (1,430 games, tied for 32 all time, although ovechkin and burns will pass them imminently), each making it a little past the lockout, but they both started at age 20.

when you think about just how much hockey that is, the 600 extra mario games upthread seems downright impossible.

but there are several variables i’m not clear on:

- was mario a gary roberts situation where he needed to have his career end early to rededicate him later on? or was the later mario who actually seemed to want to play just the natural result of being an older, more mature person who understood time is something you don’t get back?

- related: is later career mario inevitable and would he have gutted it out because of some combination of wanting his kids to be able to watch him, the money just being too good to leave on the table, and the penguins owing him money that he could only recoup by propping the team’s value?

- and to what degree is the early/prime career whining and all the quitting and threatening to quit a product of his back issues, vs his personality in general?

but based on his behaviour through the middle half of his 20s, i would guess that the cumulative exhaustion from a decade of consecutive 70+ game seasons, plus the games steadily getting harder and sloggier through the 90s, would mean we’re probably seeing him walking away right when he actually did.

Where did you read he plays an extra 600 games in the OP? Cause it doesn’t happen in neither 3 hypothetical scenarios
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
29,489
17,574
Where did you read he plays an extra 600 games in the OP? Cause it doesn’t happen in neither 3 hypothetical scenarios

If he had another 400-600 games he would probably have approached Gretzky's point totals. Realistically I don't see how that isn't the best option.

multiple ppl have responded to this scenario

but i did appreciate this detail in your scenario #3, which imo is much less farfetched:

In this scenario, Lemieux has a relatively healthy career—“relatively” being the key word. What I mean by that is I can’t envision Lemieux having a near-perfectly healthy career; that would imply he takes his health very seriously and trains exceptionally hard, which wouldn’t be realistic and wouldn’t reflect Lemieux’s true nature.
 

Crosby2010

Registered User
Mar 4, 2023
1,274
1,114
You have to go option 3 here. A full and healthy career for Mario would be epic. I still would have loved to see a 2001 Cup final with Mario/Jagr vs. the Avs. And option 1 does have the three peat, something no one has done since the Islanders. But what do we all think of when we think of Mario? It is the health that held him back in his career. You got to see this play out.
 

Gorskyontario

Registered User
Feb 18, 2024
508
434
Where did you read he plays an extra 600 games in the OP? Cause it doesn’t happen in neither 3 hypothetical scenarios

I said 400-600 games. Which would put his games played roughly on par with Gretzky. If that isn't your criteria, then it should be,
 

Gorskyontario

Registered User
Feb 18, 2024
508
434
This again? I thought I had well established that this is utterly impossible.

15 is far fetched, but why would it be impossible? From 1988- the early 00's no one really came close to him offensively. Even as an old man in the DPE he had the best ppg in the league.

Of course this logic could also apply to Gretzky, who lost some scoring titles due to injury(1988 especially) as well as the Suter hit. Lemieux being the main beneficiary when healthy of course.
 

MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
10,363
5,927
This again? I thought I had well established that this is utterly impossible.
0% chance and impossible are 2 different things (they're is a 0% chance to have an infinite tails coin flip in a row with a 50-50 coin but not impossible).

Here 14 would be the very hyperbolic statement to make I feel like (88 to 2001), 15 is pushing even the hyperbole, but how can something like be impossible ? (People would have use that word for what Gretzky did before he did it)
 

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