Where would Jagr rank if his career ended after 1996-97?

[God Bless Canada]

Thanks for checking my math and setting the record straight. I can assure you that I did not leave anyone out intentionally. I did not (and do not) know of a definitive source for such data, so used what I could find for the top scorers each year. I should have been more clear that data before '93-94 was increasingly difficult to find, at least at the time I compiled it. Must have been an oversight on my part for not including Nedved in '96 and Sundin in '99.

Again, I do appreciate you correcting my mistakes, and am curious as to your source of such data. However, it still shows that:

- Jagr was more productive at even strength than Lemieux in '96, even on a per game basis.
- Jagr's '95 scoring title did not come out of nowhere, since he was second in even strength scoring in '94 (behind Fedorov's career year), and with Lemieux's departure had a more central role on the power play in '95.
- Jagr was probably one of the most dominant even strength players in history.

Lindros was another player who especially excelled at even strength. Also, from what I can tell, Gretzky had a good % of even strength points, at least in comparison to Lemieux.

One thing worth noting in 1995-96: Jagr had Ron Francis for a linemate. That certainly helped. (Nedved was the third man on that line, and while nobody ever questioned Pouting Petr's skill level - the boy had an incredible wrist shot - if you couldn't have a career year with Ronnie and Jagr, you either had a great track record for offence, or you had something wrong). Mario had kind of a revolving door for linemates. Sandstrom and Mario were dangerous, when they were healthy, but with Mario and Sandstrom, anything more than 70 games played was a bonus.

Obviously Jagr was a magnificent player who had a wonderful season in 1995-96. But that even strength points comparison is skewed by linemates. Mario had a revolving door. His best option was a guy who had a track record of missing time each year. Jagr was playing with two players with whom he had great chemistry.

 

[seventieslord]

One thing worth noting in 1995-96: Jagr had Ron Francis for a linemate. That certainly helped. (Nedved was the third man on that line, and while nobody ever questioned Pouting Petr's skill level - the boy had an incredible wrist shot - if you couldn't have a career year with Ronnie and Jagr, you either had a great track record for offence, or you had something wrong). Mario had kind of a revolving door for linemates. Sandstrom and Mario were dangerous, when they were healthy, but with Mario and Sandstrom, anything more than 70 games played was a bonus.

Obviously Jagr was a magnificent player who had a wonderful season in 1995-96. But that even strength points comparison is skewed by linemates. Mario had a revolving door. His best option was a guy who had a track record of missing time each year. Jagr was playing with two players with whom he had great chemistry.

But if anyone classifies as "a guy who's going to put up the points no matter who he plays with", it's Lemieux.

 

[Cermi]

I think the voters got it right in 1989. Wayne won the Hart Trophy as the league MVP. The moment he arrived in LA, everyone's attitude toward the Kings changed. The attitude of the fans towards the Kings changed. The attitude of the media towards the Kings changed. The days of toiling in hockey obscurity in LA were over. Kings games became a big deal in LA, and the Kings received national attention that they could have only dreamed of.

But more importantly, the attitude among hockey people towards the Kings changed. No longer were the Kings perceived as Edmonton and Calgary's whipping boys. No longer were the Kings perceived as a your best chance (along with Vancouver) to get a win during a trip through the toughest division in hockey. Suddenly, the Kings were contenders. They were a force to be reckoned with.

Worth noting is that Mario obliterated Wayne in all-star team balloting. Mario was the first-team all-star centre. Wayne was the second team all-star. And it wasn't close. Nor should it have been.

Mario was the best player in the league in 1988-89. Yzerman might have been the second best. (Yzerman did win the Pearson). But nobody meant more to his team than Wayne Gretzky.

Interesting, I havent thought about it in that way. Nvertheless, theree's some logic in what you say...

 

[livewell68]

But if anyone classifies as "a guy who's going to put up the points no matter who he plays with", it's Lemieux.

Gretzky was the same and clearly Jagr would show he had the same ability as his later Pittsburgh years and his New York years showed he could play with anyone and still dominate.

 

[Czech Your Math]

One thing worth noting in 1995-96: Jagr had Ron Francis for a linemate. That certainly helped. (Nedved was the third man on that line, and while nobody ever questioned Pouting Petr's skill level - the boy had an incredible wrist shot - if you couldn't have a career year with Ronnie and Jagr, you either had a great track record for offence, or you had something wrong). Mario had kind of a revolving door for linemates. Sandstrom and Mario were dangerous, when they were healthy, but with Mario and Sandstrom, anything more than 70 games played was a bonus. Obviously Jagr was a magnificent player who had a wonderful season in 1995-96. But that even strength points comparison is skewed by linemates. Mario had a revolving door.

Jagr's linemates were better (Francis being the difference), but Mario played mostly with Sandstrom and Naslund, not a revolving door of scrubs.

Who was involved in their even strength points (couple games missing):

LEMIEUX: Sandstrom 19, Naslund 17, Jagr 7, Smolinski 6, Francis 5
JAGR: Nedved 36, Francis 29, Zubov 10, Lemieux 7, Smolinski 6

While Francis was clearly a better player than Sandstrom, outside of their time on lines with Lemieux and Jagr, their even strength production is not so different.

Using (TGOI-PPGOI) for ESG, Sandstrom's ESGF/ESGA for different periods:

Last 4 seasons with Rangers: 230/233 in 260 games (72/73 per 82)
Parts of 5 seasons with Kings: 238/214 in 235 games (83/75)
'94 and '95 with Pens: 52/56 in 74 games (69/62)
'96 and '97 with Pens: 89/81 in 98 games (74/68)
Career: 792/786 in 983 games (66/66)

Looking at Francis' average for different periods:

10 in Hart: 730/807 in 876 games (68/76 per 82 games)
Last 6 in Hart: 397/372 in 424 games (77/72)
First 3+ in Pitt: 225/229 in 250 games (74/75)
Last 4 in Pitt: 316/242 in 283 games (92/70)
Next 4 in Car: 212/215 in 322 games (54/55)
Career: 1483/1493 in 1731 games (70/71)

Both of their best years previous to this were in a higher scoring league, in Sandstrom's case with Gretzky's Kings. With more typical linemates, in their 30's, in the mid-late '90s, would expect somewhere in the 60/60 to 70/70 range for each.

Not much use to look at Naslund, since he was just hitting his prime and then was traded before the end of the season. May be of some use to look at Nedved's numbers:

3 seasons before Pens: 122/101 in 149 games (67/56)
2 seasons with Pens: 163/128 in 154 games (87/68)
Next 3 seasons with Rangers: 166/160 in 211 games (65/62)
Career: 675/696 in 982 games (56/58)

His best option was a guy who had a track record of missing time each year. Jagr was playing with two players with whom he had great chemistry.

Difficult to penalize Jagr for staying healthy to develop that chemistry with Francis and helping him to a career year. Francis had his 4 best adjusted point seasons in his 30's from '95-98.

It was Nedved's first season with the Pens, his fourth team in four seasons, with 43 points in 65 games the previous two seasons combined. His 99 points were 21 more than he had in any other season, and his +37 was more than all his other "plus" seasons combined (career -21). He was on ice for 98 ES goals in 80 games, the only time he had at least one per game.

Sandstrom only played 58 games, but still was a fine goal scorer, near top form during previous season (14th in ES goals).

Naslund was 22 and played 66 games before being traded. Don't think Mario could ask for much more than to have capable goal scorers on each wing, given that he himself had missed the previous season and only played 172 games in the previous five.

My main point, in response to statements by other posters, was that Jagr was already an incredible player from '94 to '96, with or without Lemieux. Finishing second in even strength scoring in '94, when Mario only played 22 games... winning the Ross in '95 without Lemieux, (while it's possible he would not have in a full season, it's more probable that he would have won it more decisively)... setting records for a RW in '96, finishing second in scoring and closer to Lemieux (who only had more adjusted points in '89) than to the rest of the league.

As to who was actually the better player at even strength in '96, I believe it was Jagr, even though their linemates weren't equal. However, it is debatable and not really the point of the thread.