Where would CIS hockey fit in NCAA/ACHA/NAIH?

[Mathradio]

We all know that major-junior (both Canadian and European) takes up many players who would otherwise go to Canadian or American college hockey. I seem to remember that some players on CIS rosters are former major junior players but how good are CIS teams (UNB, for example) when placed in an American college hockey context?

 

[Drummer]

This has been covered before, but I can't find the thread.

Overall - CIS teams are bottom to middle of the pack in Hockey East and WCHA and a little higher in the ECAC and Atlantic.

Here is a good story that compares CIS to NCAA here.
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/7610/the_state_of_cis_part3_cis_vs_ncaa/

As for the other leagues ACHA & NAIH - Canadian schools would top of the crop (in most cases). This is why you don't see CIS teams play teams from these leagues. Also, NCAA D1 schools will cover the cost of travel which ACHA and NAIH are less likely to do that

The main difference is the top-end talent isn't as good on Canadian Schools, but they have strong depth on all four lines. They are also older, taller and heavier while US Schools are younger and generally faster. A top Canadian school will make it a close game and win a few while the rest will lose. I think the ratio would be better if the US schools had to travel, but that's not done.

A strong CIS team (top 3) can be a good team, but the remainder will not be. UNB won 4 of 5 games in 2010/11 on their way to a CIS Title, while some teams may win 1 game in 2-3 years. That year, UNB defeated UMass-Amh., UVM and a split against PROV. but these teams finished 7-8-9 in Hockey East. They also got by RPI who ended up 6th in ECAC. Last year they were shelled by BC 6-0 (finished 2nd) and tied UM (who ended up 7th in HE) and ended up with a CIS Title.

However - you really can't compare the two leagues. Canadian schools allow former Pro and CHL players to play while that isn't allowed in the US. All of the top talent in the CHL goes pro leaving the journeymen to go to school while US teams are scouting the best 17-18-19 year-old talent as they (the NCAA) are a development league (which the CIS is not - only a 3-4 CIS players have played in the NHL in the past 5 years while most good NCAA programs have 2-3 alumni each who are playing in the NHL).

 

[FreddyFoyle]

We all know that major-junior (both Canadian and European) takes up many players who would otherwise go to Canadian or American college hockey. I seem to remember that some players on CIS rosters are former major junior players but how good are CIS teams (UNB, for example) when placed in an American college hockey context?

CIS hockey complements major-junior. It doesn't compete with it. Actually you could call them partners in competing against the NCAA for top players: for every year a kid plays major-junior, he earns (roughly) a year's tuition at a CIS school of his choice in an education package. Therefore the major-junior recruiter can tell Johnny's parents "Don't worry, he'll still get his education if he doesn't make it to the NHL after Junior. There's no need for him to go to the NCAA ..."

Drummer has covered it pretty much. The key point is that the top CIS teams have rosters made up mostly, if not all, of former major-junior players. As you move down the competitive level of CIS teams you start to see fewer major-junior guys and more Junior "A" guys.

The Hockey East coaches I have talked to over the last few years have all said that a team like UNB (or other AUS schools like Saint Mary's, Acadia or StFX) would be competitive in their conference. But it is apples and oranges, since of course UNB wouldn't be able to recruit all those major-junior players if they were to hypothetically join the NCAA. They also characterize the CIS teams of playing more of a "pro game" than the NCAA: more "north-south", more physical, more experienced (in hockey years played), but not as many high-end skilled guys (since they don't have the NHL prospects).

The rare times that CIS teams manage to get NCAA teams to come to Canada and play in their rinks, their records are pretty good (UNB in recent years has won games against Boston College, Union, PC and Maine in Fredericton).

But we're talking about the top CIS teams. There is a pretty big competitive gap between the top and bottom CIS teams.

 

[Mathradio]

And the bottom can still be competitive against ACHA Div II/III teams...

Even so, Canadian major junior-CIS (as a combined apparatus) competes with NCAA and European major junior.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

European "major-junior" is kind of a moving target, and varies from country to country, since traditionally talented university-age European hockey players are often playing pro hockey or minor pro hockey with club "senior" teams (at a younger age than would be permitted in North America). Like in European football (soccer), a kid can be signed into a club system, progress up through their "Junior" team, and be promoted to the "senior" team (which is pro) while still a teenager.

When the KHL "All-Star" team toured the States, and came up to New Brunswick to play UNB twice over the Christmas-New Year's break, one of the discussion items was that the KHL was professing to want to change and develop their "junior" teams as a true development program, as opposed to a feeder or holding team for a teenager to be called up and sit on the bench for most of the KHL season. We'll see.

I don't see European "junior" as a true "competitor" to the NCAA. There are only a minority of those young men who would have the English language skills and academics to be able to thrive in the NCAA.

 

[Oilers Chick]

A couple of clarifications here:

1) The ACHA is club-level hockey. This means that it is a lower level of hockey compared to the NCAA (DI or DIII). Like the NCAA, the ACHA does have a DI & DIII level, along with a DII level. Plus, they also have different conferences too. Furthermore, a number of NCAA schools such as Cornell and Michigan also have ACHA teams as well.

2) The NAIH (National Association of Intercollegiate Hockey) ceased operations last month. Taking it's place will be the newly Collegiate Ice Hockey Association (CIHA).

Drummer & FreddtFoyle essentially have it correct as far as competition level is concerned. Although there are those in the NCAA hockey community that may beg to differ. I'm not one of them and base my opinion on having seen several CIS games against not only NCAA teams but also against other CIS teams. However, I have to say that the majority of CIS games I have seen involved Canada West teams.

 

[Mathradio]

European "major-junior" is kind of a moving target, and varies from country to country, since traditionally talented university-age European hockey players are often playing pro hockey or minor pro hockey with club "senior" teams (at a younger age than would be permitted in North America). Like in European football (soccer), a kid can be signed into a club system, progress up through their "Junior" team, and be promoted to the "senior" team (which is pro) while still a teenager.

When the KHL "All-Star" team toured the States, and came up to New Brunswick to play UNB twice over the Christmas-New Year's break, one of the discussion items was that the KHL was professing to want to change and develop their "junior" teams as a true development program, as opposed to a feeder or holding team for a teenager to be called up and sit on the bench for most of the KHL season. We'll see.

I don't see European "junior" as a true "competitor" to the NCAA. There are only a minority of those young men who would have the English language skills and academics to be able to thrive in the NCAA.

Even so, many of those European players who can speak, read and write in English well enough to be able to hack it in a North American college choose Canadian major-junior over NCAA.

 

[Drummer]

Even so, many of those European players who can speak, read and write in English well enough to be able to hack it in a North American college choose Canadian major-junior over NCAA.

Some of that can be $$$ as a foreign student will likely have a higher tuition requirement compared to a US kid. So, why shell out money to go to school and play hockey when you can get room & board and a small stipend to play in the CHL. And since playing in the CHL will increase your chance at being drafted - kids go there.

However, there are European players in the NCAA. Best example I can think of are Andersson, Gustav Nyquist, and Klas Leidermark playing at UMaine. Nyquist now plays for the Red Wings.

 

[MiamiHockey]

The ACHA should not be discussed in the same breath as the CIS and NCAA. The vast majority of the teams are nothing more than good men's league teams.
For the past two seasons, I have been out so skate with what is considered to be one of the better ACHA Div III teams here in the US. As a 38-year-old never-was, I could outskate about half the team. Sad, but true.
To put things in perspective, the best player on the the ACHA team I skate with played a total of 4 games of Junior A in Canada, in one of the lower-level Jr A leagues. In the ACHA Div III league, he is averaging about 3.5 PPG. He's a really nice kid, but he wouldn't even crack RMC's lineup.
The other comment that is noteworthy, and that I agree with, is Freddt's comment about the lack of games in Canada. Aside from UNB's home games, the only real evidence of any difference of playing in Canada vs. the US is the RMC-Army series.
If you look at the history of that series, between two low-end teams in their respective levels, you'll see that the games played in Kingston are always close (usually 3-2), whereas the ones played in West Point typically see Army enjoying 8-12 PP opportunities en route to a 4-5 goal win. Officiating plays a huge role, to say the least.
I would argue that, if you played home-and-home series between the top CIS and the top NCAA teams, you'd see a 50-50 split.
Of course, the NCAA has no interest in seeing that happen, because their sales pitch is that they present the best opportunity to develop while getting an education. Sending their best teams to Fredericton or Edmonton to be defeated would seriously undermine that message.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

The officiating difference between the NCAA and the CIS is huge.

Not that we love the refs in the CIS.

But as a fairly recent example, I was at UNB's games against UNH and Maine last season, and in both games there were major penalties (including a holding the facemask penalty after a UNH-induced goalmouth scrum) that don't exist in the CIS.

As Miami pointed out, CIS teams often take a ton of penalties when they're in the States due to their unfamiliarity with how the NCAA "calls the game" and in turn get lit up on the power play. It is not because "all Canadian teams are dirtier" (although some may be ...), but the CIS players get down early due to the penalties, get frustrated, and then sometimes start earning bad penalties. Not always, but often.

The shoe in on the other foot when NCAA teams play in Canada. Here, the frustration seems to be more by the NCAA teams who get bent out of shape (often, but not always) when CIS refs often let the teams play a more physical game with less ticky-tack penalty calls.

 

[VOB]

To get a real guage, top CIS teams like UNB should, during the Christmas, try and finagle themselves into a prestigious NCAA tournament like the GLI and they should respond in kind by inviting good NCAA teams to one of their tourneys. They could bill it as an international event and build off the USA-Canada hockey rivalry.

 

[Hollywood3]

To get a real guage, top CIS teams like UNB should, during the Christmas, try and finagle themselves into a prestigious NCAA tournament like the GLI and they should respond in kind by inviting good NCAA teams to one of their tourneys. They could bill it as an international event and build off the USA-Canada hockey rivalry.

Few CIS teams would decline such an invite. In general, the rules are:
- NCAA teams never accept invites to Canada to play hockey
- NCAA teams often accept invites to Canada to play basketball or volleyball
- CIS teams accept invites to play NCAA teams, usually on the first weekend of the NCAA season

 

[VOB]

Few CIS teams would decline such an invite. In general, the rules are:
- NCAA teams never accept invites to Canada to play hockey
- NCAA teams often accept invites to Canada to play basketball or volleyball
- CIS teams accept invites to play NCAA teams, usually on the first weekend of the NCAA season

NCAA teams are allowed one "foreign" trip every 4 years, so this does put some limitation as to how many NCAA teams would accept but I get your point. If the CIS does want to increase its exposure then they should try to get themselves into tournaments that matter and I'm sure some NCAA teams would love to have a Canadian representative.

I get the sense that slowly but surely CIS hockey is improving and that its top teams are as good as many NCAA teams but it still has a way to go in bringing up its bottom-end program.

 

[Hollywood3]

NCAA teams are allowed one "foreign" trip every 4 years, so this does put some limitation as to how many NCAA teams would accept but I get your point. If the CIS does want to increase its exposure then they should try to get themselves into tournaments that matter and I'm sure some NCAA teams would love to have a Canadian representative.

I get the sense that slowly but surely CIS hockey is improving and that its top teams are as good as many NCAA teams but it still has a way to go in bringing up its bottom-end program.

I realize that NCAA teams are limited with foreign trips. But they could change that rule whenever they want. It is their rule, not a dictate of the United Nations or IIHF.

Also, how many NCAA teams have had a foreign trip in the last 4 years? IIRC it would be a mere handful. So they could easily use that trip on a Canadian tour. The basketball and volleyball teams always do so.

I am not arguing that tours to NCAA tournaments wouldn't be a good idea, I am just saying that CIS teams are not invited to those.

 

[VOB]

I realize that NCAA teams are limited with foreign trips. But they could change that rule whenever they want. It is their rule, not a dictate of the United Nations or IIHF.

Also, how many NCAA teams have had a foreign trip in the last 4 years? IIRC it would be a mere handful. So they could easily use that trip on a Canadian tour. The basketball and volleyball teams always do so.

I am not arguing that tours to NCAA tournaments wouldn't be a good idea, I am just saying that CIS teams are not invited to those.

Perhaps the CIS should just throw down the gauntlet, organize a tournament either in the fall or around Christmas that invites some of the better NCAA teams to "prove their worth" and if NCAA teams decline, the CIS can always use it as a good recruiting pitch as to how the NCAA is "scared" of the CIS....

I remember about 7 or 8 years ago, Lake Superior State (an average NCAA team at the time) played a tournament in Thunder Bay...they didn't win, losing handily to some teams from out west (Calgary or B.C. maybe?). 2 years ago they took another trip through Ontario and did quite well against teams like Brock, North Bay and Ottawa. I personally knew the assistant coach of the Lakers back during the T.Bay trip and he flat out told me that CIS teams from the west were every bit as good as the top CCHA teams like Michgan and Notre Dame but the Ontario teams were quite a few steps below.

 

[AUS Fan]

You can't just "organize" a tournament without knowing who is coming. The NCAA doesn't have to compete against the CIS. They have different streams of talent: CIS is from CHL and NCAA from high school or Junior A. The NCAA also looks at CIS players as "Professional" because they have played Major Junior where they were paid 75 bucks a week. I recall the 1st Canada - US game played in Detroit in 1997 where the US team was composed of only Seniors. The theory was that these guys had finished their NCAA careers while younger players could be tainted by playing against ex-pros. btw, the US goalie in that game was Tim Thomas.

 

[VOB]

You can't just "organize" a tournament without knowing who is coming. The NCAA doesn't have to compete against the CIS. They have different streams of talent: CIS is from CHL and NCAA from high school or Junior A. The NCAA also looks at CIS players as "Professional" because they have played Major Junior where they were paid 75 bucks a week. I recall the 1st Canada - US game played in Detroit in 1997 where the US team was composed of only Seniors. The theory was that these guys had finished their NCAA careers while younger players could be tainted by playing against ex-pros. btw, the US goalie in that game was Tim Thomas.

You start by throwing out invitations....bill it as an international event, kick the marketing into high gear and challenge the NCAA. As for the whole "professional" B.S. it really is a non factor as the NCAA allows its players to compete against "pros" at the WJC and has no problem playing CIS teams in the fall.

 

[Hollywood3]

You start by throwing out invitations....bill it as an international event, kick the marketing into high gear and challenge the NCAA. As for the whole "professional" B.S. it really is a non factor as the NCAA allows its players to compete against "pros" at the WJC and has no problem playing CIS teams in the fall.

Not that I would not enjoy this, but few places draw the fans to make it worthwhile.

Thunder Bay used to host a 4 team round-robin tournament with 1 vs 2 in the final. Manitoba often went into it. Now, they trimmed it back to a two-game total point series between Lakehead and one other opponent. Basically, the other teams did not sell tickets and the team had the costs of 7 games. It seems the home town fans are happy to see two Lakehead games over the holidays and after that the law of diminishing returns clicks in.

UNB usually hosts an event which varies in format, sometimes being just one invited opponent.

Other places that have a Christmas tournament or exhibition games usually just play a local or nearby team.

Maybe SportsNet will provide some incentives for a holiday tournament with 4 big name teams in a few years. Or an all-star tournament, which would benefit as an international event.

 

[Mathradio]

And CIHA in this?

 

[MiamiHockey]

And CIHA in this?

Out of pure curiousity, I just spent 30 seconds on YouTube watching "highlights" of a game featuring a CIHA team. They can hardly skate.

To put it in perspective, my last beer league team, which was Division 5 in an Edmonton Alberta men's league, would beat those guys handily. It's that bad.

 

[Drummer]

I recall the 1st Canada - US game played in Detroit in 1997 where the US team was composed of only Seniors. The theory was that these guys had finished their NCAA careers while younger players could be tainted by playing against ex-pros. btw, the US goalie in that game was Tim Thomas.

The other issue at the time was it was not a sanctioned NCAA/CIAU event - it was a for-profit event outside the confines of the NCAA/CIAU. As such, the NCAA was going to declare any player in the game as 'pro' which is fine if you're a senior, but it meant the game could only be played with seniors.

I gave the CIAU heck for not covering it and issuing a press release which they answered - 'get your facts straight - not our event'.

UNB has had a number of US teams to Fredericton, but it's costly and as such you want to play them both days to get the best draw possible. You could host a beanpot 'like' tournament, but you would need 2 new teams for the first 5 years due to NCAA travel rules (and two teams are more expensive than one and we're a long way to go for US fans to come watch - not to mention the added expense of having to have a passport).

The current approach isn't bad, we get money for playing NCAA teams on the road and they get a free warm-up game that doesn't count towards the rankings.

 

[Mathradio]

Is there a reason why CIS is under-scouted in free agency?

 

[Drummer]

Is there a reason why CIS is under-scouted in free agency?

Most of these players, at least the ones from the CHL, were already well scouted through their junior career, so there isn't much new to learn at this stage.

Top players will get a second look (especially if your team goes to Nationals), but they will be 23-24 yeas-old (4-5 years older than the drafted prospects some teams already have).

 

[WorkingOvertime]

The ACHA should not be discussed in the same breath as the CIS and NCAA. The vast majority of the teams are nothing more than good men's league teams.
For the past two seasons, I have been out so skate with what is considered to be one of the better ACHA Div III teams here in the US. As a 38-year-old never-was, I could outskate about half the team. Sad, but true.
To put things in perspective, the best player on the the ACHA team I skate with played a total of 4 games of Junior A in Canada, in one of the lower-level Jr A leagues. In the ACHA Div III league, he is averaging about 3.5 PPG. He's a really nice kid, but he wouldn't even crack RMC's lineup.

ACHA DI teams have played games against NCAA DI, NCAA DIII, and CIS teams. Below are the results I could find (since these were still available online, they are likely more favorable to the ACHA than the population of all games between the leagues). Also note Penn State recently became an NCAA DI team.

University of British Columbia (CIS) 5, Iowa State (ACHA D.I) 4

Penn State (ACHA Division I) 5, Southern New Hampshire (NCAA Division III) 2

SUNY-Potsdam (NCAA Division III) 3, SUNY-Canton (ACHA Division I) 1

Penn State (ACHA DI) 3, Robert Morris (NCAA DI) 2.

Penn State (ACHA DI) 5, Fredonia (NCAA DIII) 4

University of New England (NCAA D.III) 9, University of Rhode Island (ACHA D.I) 1

SUNY-Canton (ACHA DI) tied Franklin Pierce (NCAA DIII) twice in 2011.

ARIZONA STATE (ACHA D.I) 3, PENN STATE (NCAA D.I) 1

University of British Columbia (CIS) 4, Oklahoma (ACHA D.I) 3 (OT)

University of Alabama-Huntsville (NCAA D.I) 11, Vanderbilt (ACHA D.3) 0 (UAH has also beaten ACHA DIII teams Alabama and Tennessee)

The top ACHA DI teams can be competitive with the bottom level CIS and NCAA DIII teams on a good day. However, at the mean level, ACHA DI is clearly below both leagues and more comparable to the BCIHL and ACAC (lower end) in Canada.

 

[JB51Hockey]

A couple of clarifications here:

1) The ACHA is club-level hockey. This means that it is a lower level of hockey compared to the NCAA (DI or DIII). Like the NCAA, the ACHA does have a DI & DIII level, along with a DII level. Plus, they also have different conferences too. Furthermore, a number of NCAA schools such as Cornell and Michigan also have ACHA teams as well.

You can't really say it's lower because Arizona State's club team beat Penn State D1 last season. I would just say ACHA is club and not a varsity sport. Even though it's not, it kinda seems like club hockey should be better than D1 or D3 because ACHA allows ex-major junior/pro players.