Where Does Pavel Datsyuk Rank Among The Best Centers Of His Era And How Do You View His Legacy?

[Randyne]

Datsyuk was much better than Sid.
DET with Datsyuk =.663 P%;
DET w/o Datsyuk =.578 P%
-------------
PIT with Sid =.608 P%;
PIT w/o Sid =.634 P%

Datsyuk made his team much more better, Sid makes his team worse.

 

[Dead Coyote]

You know, I think there's some nuance to this.

Regarding his defense, imo Datsyuk was elite re: defensive transition in the neutral zone, to me he's the best player I've ever seen and probably ever will see in this respect. What I mean is when Datsyuk was on the ice it became MUCH harder for teams to get from their own blue line to the other blue line, and also Datsyuk would create a turnover in the Neutral Zone then immediately make a good pass, suddenly you're back in your own zone again but this time without any sort of warning. It's such a weird and oddly specific facet of the game that doesn't show up on the scoresheet and yet is so important, esp with regard to controlling overall play.

Among current players I really can only think of Marner and Stone that sort of have this same ability (might be forgetting some, if so apologies), but Datsyuk was so, so much better than both those guys at this defense / turnover creation through the defensive neutral zone.

Deep in his own zone? Imo he was very good but not elite. If I'm stuck hemmed in my own zone, I'd rather have Forsberg or Kopitar or ROR or probably even peak Jonathan Toews, Toews was once overrated but I feel like he's gone so far back the other way that ppl forget how defensively dominant he was in his prime. But counting the other 2/3s of the ice, Datsyuk was arguably the best player in his entire generation and maybe more.

All that to say Datsyuk was extremely good at the game called hockey, a bit tricky to explain to someone who's never seen him play. Glad we both had a chance to watch him in real-time (as did many people who are contributing in this thread)

Datsyuk was probably the best forward to have in the offensive zone forechecking, outside of *maybe* Crosby because his IQ was so high and you had such a high chance of turning the puck over to him. From there he had numerous ways to score, or just give the puck to his trailing forward and set up a chance.

In the Neutral zone and especially on zone entries he was the same. Marner also can do this where he strips the puck away at the blue line as the player is entering and skates it up for a breakaway or odd man advantage.

In the deep defensive zone, yeah he wasn't great protecting the puck being forechecked or absorbing hits, but he did still take the puck and make outlet passes (and was generally good at making quick plays to cover for those weaknesses) that just wasn't really his job- he was still pretty good at winning puck battles and getting the puck out of the zone along the walls and taking outlet passes to go up the ice, which were both his primary job as a forward.

I think people underestimate just how good he was at stopping plays before they developed and turning that into his own chances. He was really the best in the NHL at doing that. Toews played bigger and was arguably better on the PK where shot blocking and getting people out of the crease mattered more, I can at least understand why people went with Toews that year, but the year he lost to Kesler is baffling to me, and I honestly think he probably could have won some later/earlier as well- but that like 5ish year period of time, he was just by far IMO the best defensive forward in the game.

 

[wetcoast]

I love Datsyuk, incredibly exciting player, very unique. I don't blame any hockey fan for being in love with him but my god the revisionist history around him on this site is crazy. His legend grows every year.

Sure there is something tot hat but he was under appreciated when he played, kind of like a Peter Forsberg situation,...kinda.

You'd think he was an offensive force who conversely shut everything and everyone down and was a defensive vacuum.

He has a 4 season offensive peak that is very respectable but nothing crazy, three 30 goal seasons (32 career high) and three 60 assist seasons. One time Hart finalist, and often times Zetterberg got the tougher defensive assignments (Crosby in 08 finals).

Considering his defensive game and how detroit really spread around their offense the counting stats aren't a great way to look at it IMO.

While WAR is maybe often overused it does point to the strength of Datysuk's game and overall impact.

Joe Thornton and Henrik Sedin have Hart + Ross trophies. I very vividly and explicitly remember lots of chat back in the day about how Stamkos made the "big 3" into a "big 4" pre-leg injury. Malkin was always a level above and Crosby...come on.

Datsyuk is rated way higher now than he ever was in his hay day. He's a fantastic player who occasionally flirted with top 5 centre status for 4 years.

I think that in a vacuum for their primes most people would have Datsyuk over Hank sedin, who has serious playoff issues and Jumbo as well.

Was sometimes a playoff no-show too. 99 points and Selke nom doesn't stop Marner from getting shit on for his playoff performances but Datsyuk gets a pass. Dats = 0.72 PPG in playoffs. Marner = 0.87 PPG in playoffs.

Sure but this is misleading as part of the 157 game sample includes his rookie season of 21 games with 10:40 icetime and a line of 21-3-3-6.

Also his possession metrics from 07-08 onwards as that's all we have data for is simply outstanding as opposed to simply looking at counting stats.

But all that being said everyone has an opinion on him thus the 5 page long thread and that goes to his legacy.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

Generational talent. Easily top-3 in the league when he played behind OV and Crosby.

 

[wetcoast]

Datsyuk was much better than Sid.
DET with Datsyuk =.663 P%;
DET w/o Datsyuk =.578 P%
-------------
PIT with Sid =.608 P%;
PIT w/o Sid =.634 P%

Datsyuk made his team much more better, Sid makes his team worse.

This has been repeating debunked (and I'm sure the guy with the actual statical record will provide context for it) in a way because Crosby played his entire rookie season on a really poor team and Datsyuk came into the league on a really strong team.

You are comparing apples and oranges and seeing something but not proving it.

Any statement that says Crosby was making his team worse is 100% nonsensical, just stop and think about what you are saying.

 

[wetcoast]

Life was better in the 90s. I wasn't in school or working. My mom fed me. No bills, no worries.

And I was 40 years old.

You are describing the typical HF poster right?

 

[wetcoast]

Question : Who would you rather have starting a franchise Auston Mathews or Pavel Datsyuk ? Me , Pavel without question .

While I get what you are saying Datsyuk didn't exactly light the league on fire in his early years and he was older even then.

On draft day knowing what we know no as individual players I'm still taking AM based his advantage from the start and Datysuk had injury problems as well.

At their peaks or 7 year prime, sure the conversation gets more interesting.

 

[Hockey Know it all]

Highlight videos are not a good representation of a player's ability. If so, Rick Nash would be a better player than Crosby.

Did I ever say they were?

No, I said to watch them as they show stuff that non-redwings fans didn’t see. Awood has highlights that most hockey fans haven’t seen of the Red Wings.

You are a spazoid my dude. Getting worked up over nothing.

Also on a side note, Rick Nash and his highlights couldn’t hold a candle to Crosby highlights videos.

Nash has one memorable goal and that is from when, 07-08 against the yotes(off the top of my head)?

 

[Hockey Know it all]

Except when highlight reel plays are a consistent part of your game. Actually, in a way he looked better when you saw the full impact he had on games than he did in his highlight reels.

Exactly. When I referenced highlight videos of Datsyuk, I wasn’t talking about the typical goals and assist highlight videos. Datsyuk has take away videos, defensive videos that others have made and that’s what I’m referencing. Awood40 has a good collection of everything datsyuk could do.

People just don’t understand the magnitude of how good he was. As someone that grew up in Michigan and played hockey at 5 years old because of the wings 96-97 cup team, I will never see someone as good as Datsyuk again.

For me, he was great offensively, but just the little things he did on the defensive side of the puck, will never be matched and that is the stuff, while people seen, they didn’t see it night in and night out. Those are the highlights I’m talking about.

 

[CashMash]

I love Datsyuk, incredibly exciting player, very unique. I don't blame any hockey fan for being in love with him but my god the revisionist history around him on this site is crazy. His legend grows every year.

You'd think he was an offensive force who conversely shut everything and everyone down and was a defensive vacuum.

He has a 4 season offensive peak that is very respectable but nothing crazy, three 30 goal seasons (32 career high) and three 60 assist seasons. One time Hart finalist, and often times Zetterberg got the tougher defensive assignments (Crosby in 08 finals).

Joe Thornton and Henrik Sedin have Hart + Ross trophies. I very vividly and explicitly remember lots of chat back in the day about how Stamkos made the "big 3" into a "big 4" pre-leg injury. Malkin was always a level above and Crosby...come on.

Datsyuk is rated way higher now than he ever was in his hay day. He's a fantastic player who occasionally flirted with top 5 centre status for 4 years.

Was sometimes a playoff no-show too. 99 points and Selke nom doesn't stop Marner from getting shit on for his playoff performances but Datsyuk gets a pass. Dats = 0.72 PPG in playoffs. Marner = 0.87 PPG in playoffs.

Sure, 0.72 PPG looks bad, but you have to remember that he wasn't given that big a role early on.
How did he do when he had the reins? I'd take him over Marner any day. Playoff-Z may be better, but if I had to pick one of them for a franchise, it'd be Datsyuk.

Besides, I feel like Datsyuk being key part of cup wins nullifies the Marner comparison... If Marner ever wins, a lot will be forgotten.

 

[Hockeyholic]

I put him behind Crosby and Malkin. Without hesitation too.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Crosby
Malkin
Kopitar
Datsyuk
Thornton

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I think Datsyuk was an all-time great hockey player, but often just a very good NHL player who showed flashes of brilliance.

I don't know if the league truly suited him in its style, but the fact that his style stood out also made him very noticeable (which is why we are having a discussion like this several years after the retirement of a guy who didn't get a 1000 points or a 1000 games and never won a Hart or Art Ross).

It reminds me of the way we look at a guy like Andrea Pirlo in soccer. There are some guys who will argue forever that he's one of the greatest ever, but he's also often overlooked when people look at the greatest of the last 20 years. Pirlo was one of the best pure passers the sport has ever seen and had a great understanding of the game and its technical nuances, but he also was at best adequate in several areas which are considered pretty important in the modern game. To truly appreciate Pirlo you had to appreciate soccer being played a certain way, and I feel it is very similar with Datsyuk and hockey.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I remember his defense being comically overrated because he was so good at takeaways and he played responsible hockey. Z was the defensive beast on that team that could shut players down.

What I will remember Datsyuk for is his handle with the puck, as he was one of the best I have ever seen. He was Kovalev level silky smooth but with the effort 100% of the time.

Forgot to do a ranking. I could never put him above Crosby and Malkin, but anywhere after that I think is reasonable. Some years he was the 3rd best center, and some years he was firmly outside the top 5. He was so injury prone, guy was always battling something or coming back from something.

 

[wingfan]

While I get what you are saying Datsyuk didn't exactly light the league on fire in his early years and he was older even then.

On draft day knowing what we know no as individual players I'm still taking AM based his advantage from the start and Datysuk had injury problems as well.

At their peaks or 7 year prime, sure the conversation gets more interesting.

Datsyuk didn't light the world on fire his first two years in the league because he was playing 3rd line center behind Fedorov and Yzerman, averaging about 13 minutes a night, every other guy lumped in with him in the conversation of "best players of that era" were on bottom feeders and tossed into roles where they were playing 18+ minutes a night with 1PP time..

One of the most incredible statistics that rarely gets talked about is takeaways. Datsyuk had like 1300 career takeaways, 2nd to Thornton's 1400, who played nearly 600 more career games than Datsyuk..

Outside of Connor McDavid, Datsyuk was the most exciting player to watch that I've ever seen. My completely subjective take is that he's a top 10 player of all time. His combination of skill, hockey IQ, work ethic was absolutely incredible. He essentially ruined conventional defensive wisdom with how he carried the puck. "Follow the puck carrier's hips". Datsyuk would bait a defenseman to cross over inside and then jet outside. "Play the body, don't play the puck, get a stick on them". As a defenseman would go to lift his stick, his stick was already in the air to prevent a defender from separating him from the puck.

 

[CashMash]

Centers? I'll count Zetterberg as a left-winger/hybrid for this to make it easier.

Crosby
Malkin
Datsyuk
Bergeron
Kopitar
Toews
Thornton
Bäckström

etc.

 

[Ben Grimm]

He's the best eligible player not in the HHoF.

 

[Grinner]

When I use to watch him play, I thought he was the Barry Sanders of hockey

 

[Cursed Lemon]

This has been repeating debunked (and I'm sure the guy with the actual statical record will provide context for it) in a way because Crosby played his entire rookie season on a really poor team and Datsyuk came into the league on a really strong team.

You are comparing apples and oranges and seeing something but not proving it.

Any statement that says Crosby was making his team worse is 100% nonsensical, just stop and think about what you are saying.

Datsyuk is not better than Crosby but that's not what that stat means lol

 

[authentic]

I remember his defense being comically overrated because he was so good at takeaways and he played responsible hockey. Z was the defensive beast on that team that could shut players down.

What I will remember Datsyuk for is his handle with the puck, as he was one of the best I have ever seen. He was Kovalev level silky smooth but with the effort 100% of the time.

Forgot to do a ranking. I could never put him above Crosby and Malkin, but anywhere after that I think is reasonable. Some years he was the 3rd best center, and some years he was firmly outside the top 5. He was so injury prone, guy was always battling something or coming back from something.

He has the best two-way results in advanced metrics of his era, by far. A lot of this came with Lidstrom off the team and Zetterberg was not always getting the toughest matchups like some believe. Considering him anything less than the best two-way player of his era is a flat out false representation of how good he was.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

He has the best two-way results in advanced metrics of his era, by far. A lot of this came with Lidstrom off the team and Zetterberg was not always getting the toughest matchups like some believe. Considering him anything less than the best two-way player of his era is a flat out false representation of how good he was.

Datsyuk's prime and best years came with Lidstrom on the team competing and winning Norris trophies. He also had good two-way metrics because he is fantastic at offense, but my criticism was that his defense was overblown, because Zetterberg did take the toughest matchups. That is just objective reality.

 

[authentic]

Datsyuk's prime and best years came with Lidstrom on the team competing and winning Norris trophies. He also had good two-way metrics because he is fantastic at offense, but my criticism was that his defense was overblown, because Zetterberg did take the toughest matchups. That is just objective reality.

Datsyuk was 6th in points per game with better defensive metrics than Bergeron when he was 36 years old and Lidstrom was retired.

The reality is that Zetterberg was better at shadowing a specific player but Datsyuk's overall defensive impact was undeniably greater. The eye test backs this up as well.

 

[nowhereman]

I'll never understand anyone claiming Datsyuk is underrated. This thread is filled with so much hyperbole: "generational", "best player in the world", "a top 10 player of all time". There are very few players who get their tires pumped to the point of over-inflation like Datsyuk.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Datsyuk was 6th in points per game with better defensive metrics than Bergeron when he was 36 years old and Lidstrom was retired.

So one year is now 'a lot of his career' ? Love how the goal posts have moved to a bulk of his career to just the one year. Zetterberg way outperformed him on the penalty kill that year too, so what defensive metric are you going off of?

The reality is that Zetterberg was better at shadowing a specific player but Datsyuk's overall defensive impact was undeniably greater. The eye test backs this up as well.

Yes, Zetterberg was better at shutting down specific players, like Crosby in the Finals. Also at penalty killing. What metrics are you going off of? I am guessing it is stats that take into account offensive output as well or takeaway stats.

Datsyuk is a great two way player, never denied that. The reality is, Zetterberg was the far superior defender. Neither of them actually play defense, you know that right? Their job is still to score goals, and Datsyuk was fantastic at that and my praise was there for his two way play.

 

[SuperScript29]

At his peak, he was a top-5 player in the NHL, possibly even top-3 at some point. One thing for sure, he was the most exciting hockey player I have ever seen play.