Where do you rank Petro?

[bleedblue1223]

Lidström could also cut his trophy count if he was in a worse team. Weber in Boston/Chicago would be like Lidström in Detroit.

Just stop, they would still be the same players, but with more exposure. Weber has been viewed as the best or at worst top 3 defender in the league. Being on a different team would not improve that in anyway. There is no chance in hell that if he was on a different team that people would suddenly think he is an all-time great like Lidstrom.

 

[RR10*]

Just stop, they would still be the same players, but with more exposure. Weber has been viewed as the best or at worst top 3 defender in the league. Being on a different team would not improve that in anyway. There is no chance in hell that if he was on a different team that people would suddenly think he is an all-time great like Lidstrom.

So you think Crosby would be as good and successfull in Buffalo as in Penguins? Don't you think Weber would have a better chance at winning awards and trophies on a stacked teams like Boston/Chicago? Lidström is an all-time great because of the team he played with. He would do good in a worse team but would not be nearly as successfull as in Wings. Ofcourse team matters.

 

[bleedblue1223]

So you think Crosby would be as good and successfull in Buffalo as in Penguins? Don't you think Weber would have a better chance at winning awards and trophies on a stacked teams like Boston/Chicago? Lidström is an all-time great because of the team he played with. He would do good in a worse team but would not be nearly as successfull as in Wings. Ofcourse team matters.

Considering Crosby is the reason the Penguins have turned into the team they are and he has put up numbers with guys like Kunitz, Dupuis, Armstrong, Malone, etc, Crosby would be just as successful anywhere else.

 

[Thallis]

So you think Crosby would be as good and successfull in Buffalo as in Penguins? Don't you think Weber would have a better chance at winning awards and trophies on a stacked teams like Boston/Chicago? Lidström is an all-time great because of the team he played with. He would do good in a worse team but would not be nearly as successfull as in Wings. Ofcourse team matters.

Do you not remember how the Penguins were before they got Crosby? Have you not noticed how much Detroit has dropped off since Lidstrom Retired? Do you not remember how average we were before Petro really broke through? Players of this caliber are what makes these teams as good as they are.

 

[Celtic Note]

Lidstrom was one of the best defenders of all time. Weber is one of the best of his time. Huge difference!

 

[Vladys Gumption]

So you think Crosby would be as good and successfull in Buffalo as in Penguins? Don't you think Weber would have a better chance at winning awards and trophies on a stacked teams like Boston/Chicago? Lidström is an all-time great because of the team he played with. He would do good in a worse team but would not be nearly as successfull as in Wings. Ofcourse team matters.

Crosby turned Pittsburgh from perennial laughing stock to perennial playoff team. So yes he'd still be great in Buffalo. Your argument is invalid.

 

[RR10*]

Crosby turned Pittsburgh from perennial laughing stock to perennial playoff team. So yes he'd still be great in Buffalo. Your argument is invalid.

Of course he would be good in Buffalo and put up points, im not saying he wouldn't. But even with him in the lineup Buffalo would still be mediocre. And he would'nt have his trophies.

Lidström is one of the best for sure. But playing in Detroit made it much easier for him. In a bad team he wouldn't be as dominant and definitely not as recognised. If Weber was on a true contending team like Boston and fought for the SC every year and won individual trophies he would be much more recognised compared to what he is now in a bad team like Nashville. That's my point.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

Of course he would be good in Buffalo and put up points, im not saying he wouldn't. But even with him in the lineup Buffalo would still be mediocre. And he would'nt have his trophies.

Lidström is one of the best for sure. But playing in Detroit made it much easier for him. In a bad team he wouldn't be as dominant and definitely not as recognised. If Weber was on a true contending team like Boston and fought for the SC every year and won individual trophies he would be much more recognised compared to what he is now in a bad team like Nashville. That's my point.

Crosby and Lidstrom made their teams great. Apparently you didn't watch hockey when Crosby broke in. Pittsburgh was worse then than Buffalo is now. And he still put up massive numbers. He then put them on his back all the way to a Stanley Cup. Lidstrom is one of the top five defenseman of all time. He made Detroit great. They were a great team, but they were built around him. Weber is widely regarded as one of the top three defenseman in the world, and one could make a very legitimate argument that he is he best in the world at his position. He gets plenty of recognition.

 

[RR10*]

Crosby and Lidstrom made their teams great. Apparently you didn't watch hockey when Crosby broke in. Pittsburgh was worse then than Buffalo is now. And he still put up massive numbers. He then put them on his back all the way to a Stanley Cup. Lidstrom is one of the top five defenseman of all time. He made Detroit great. They were a great team, but they were built around him. Weber is widely regarded as one of the top three defenseman in the world, and one could make a very legitimate argument that he is he best in the world at his position. He gets plenty of recognition.

Sorry but that's not true. In Crosbys first season with the Penguins they ended 29th in the NHL with only 58 total pts . Guess which team was worse? The season after Malkin and Staal joined and after that Penguins never looked back.

 

[medkit]

Sorry but that's not true. In Crosbys first season with the Penguins they ended 29th in the NHL with only 58 total pts . Guess which team was worse? The season after Malkin and Staal joined and after that Penguins never looked back.

All he said was that Crosby put up crazy numbers on a bad team. And he's right. Crosby put up 102 points that year. Top players are good anywhere they play.

 

[RR10*]

All he said was that Crosby put up crazy numbers on a bad team. And he's right. Crosby put up 102 points that year. Top players are good anywhere they play.

Ofcourse he would put up points on a bad team. I didn't say anything else. My point was that he would not be as successfull on a team like Buffalo as he's been in Pens. Same goes with Lidström. Team matters. If you dont agree with this you dont have a clue.

 

[medkit]

Ofcourse he would put up points on a bad team. I didn't say anything else. My point was that he would not be as successfull on a team like Buffalo as he's been in Pens. Same goes with Lidström. Team matters. If you dont agree with this you dont have a clue.

Lidstrom and Crosby would dominate no matter what team they were on. Crosby put up 102 points his first year in the league on a terrible Pens team, and 109 points in his 5th year on a dominant Pens team.

Obviously the team itself wouldn't automatically win cups just because one of those players were there, because it's a team game. But they'd have a great start.

You literally just said that Lidstrom wouldn't be an all-time great if he wasn't on Detroit and that Weber in Chicago = Lidstrom in Detroit. No way. You are way overstating this. Those once-in-a-generation guys don't need anyone else to prove how good they are.

And most of the time they improve the people around them. Lidstrom taught a lot to the other defenders in Detroit.

 

[RR10*]

Lidstrom and Crosby would dominate no matter what team they were on. Crosby put up 102 points his first year in the league on a terrible Pens team, and 109 points in his 5th year on a dominant Pens team.

Obviously the team itself wouldn't automatically win cups just because one of those players were there, because it's a team game. But they'd have a great start.

You literally just said that Lidstrom wouldn't be an all-time great if he wasn't on Detroit and that Weber in Chicago = Lidstrom in Detroit. No way. You are way overstating this. Those once-in-a-generation guys don't need anyone else to prove how good they are.

And most of the time they improve the people around them. Lidstrom taught a lot to the other defenders in Detroit.

Can you even read? Yes he put up 102 points but his team still finished 29th in the league, how nice! Im talking about how successfull their teams would be and their individual success and recognition. It would be worse no doubt! Lidström could forget about his awards and titles in a bad team and that would definitely not make him all-time great. He would just be like Weber is now, a great defender but not an all time great. Lidström was one of the greatest all time cause he was great AND played on a contending team. This is not hard to understand. Put Lidström on this seasons Buffalo and he would be all time great my ass. Lidström had for example a great +/- throughout his carrier, on a bad team those number could have been negative.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

Sorry but that's not true. In Crosbys first season with the Penguins they ended 29th in the NHL with only 58 total pts . Guess which team was worse? The season after Malkin and Staal joined and after that Penguins never looked back.

Hey I never said they were good his first year. In fact, I said they were worse than Buffalo. That team never sniffs a Cup without Crosby. No team wind a cup without a great supporting cast, but he still turned tht franchise around. End of story. Crosby would be the best player in the world no matter what team he played on.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

Can you even read? Yes he put up 102 points but his team still finished 29th in the league, how nice! Im talking about how successfull their teams would be and their individual success and recognition. It would be worse no doubt! Lidström could forget about his awards and titles in a bad team and that would definitely not make him all-time great. He would just be like Weber is now, a great defender but not an all time great. Lidström was one of the greatest all time cause he was great AND played on a contending team. This is not hard to understand. Put Lidström on this seasons Buffalo and he would be all time great my ass. Lidström had for example a great +/- throughout his carrier, on a bad team those number could have been negative.

What is this nonsense you are spewing? Lidstrom made Detroit as good as they were. Just look how fast they fell after he retired. Just because a player wins or doesn't win awards, has no major impact on how they play. The writers are idiots anyway. Lidstrom would be an all time great no matter who he played for because he was that good. Period.

 

[medkit]

Can you even read? Yes he put up 102 points but his team still finished 29th in the league, how nice!

Yeah, which is why I said "Obviously the team itself wouldn't automatically win cups just because one of those players were there, because it's a team game. But they'd have a great start." Weird how you say this and then immediately go back to talking about the individual players.

If you don't think the best players in the world can dominate on worse teams, you simply have no idea what you are talking about. Most people are capable of noticing top players take over a game without needing to consult the nhl standings. You are the first person I've ever seen who thinks Lidstrom was a product of his team, lol.

 

[RR10*]

What is this nonsense you are spewing? Lidstrom made Detroit as good as they were. Just look how fast they fell after he retired. Just because a player wins or doesn't win awards, has no major impact on how they play. The writers are idiots anyway. Lidstrom would be an all time great no matter who he played for because he was that good. Period.

Detroit was on a downhill even before Lidström retired. Winning awards is very important when you talk about all-time great, also your individual stats and how successfull your team is. That's what made Lidström great, he was good and played on a contending team. If Lidström played in Buffalo he would not have +40, he could be -5, and I doubt they would even be a playoff team. If that's the case he could forget about being in the dicussion of being an all-time great. Please tell me a player that is all-time great but that has played his entire carrier in a ****** team. I wonder why there is noone of them...

 

[RR10*]

Hey I never said they were good his first year. In fact, I said they were worse than Buffalo. That team never sniffs a Cup without Crosby. No team wind a cup without a great supporting cast, but he still turned tht franchise around. End of story. Crosby would be the best player in the world no matter what team he played on.

Ofcourse Crosby helped, he's the best player in the world. But having Malkin and Staal the season after made them complete.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

Detroit was on a downhill even before Lidström retired. Winning awards is very important when you talk about all-time great, also your individual stats and how successfull your team is. That's what made Lidström great, he was good and played on a contending team. If Lidström played in Buffalo he would not have +40, he could be -5, and I doubt they would even be a playoff team. If that's the case he could forget about being in the dicussion of being an all-time great. Please tell me a player that is all-time great but that has played his entire carrier in a ****** team. I wonder why there is noone of them...

Winning awards has absolutely zero to do with being an all-time great, especially the Norris. It's voted on by idiot writers who don't know the first thing about playing defense. All they care about is offensive numbers. I think you'd be hard pressed to find many people outside of Ottawa that would say Erik Karlsson is better than Shea Weber simply because he has a Norris. Take Lidstrom out of Detroit's lineup and it completely changes the dynamic of the team, even at their peak. If you'll notice, every great team had at least one defenseman who they run through. One guy that gets everything going. Just look at how much worse the Blues are when Petro doesn't play. As for your assertion that no all time great player has played for crappy teams, well you're just plain wrong. Mike Gartner played for brutal teams for most of his career and he scored over 700 career goals. There goes that argument. Even discounting Gartner, there's a very good reason that most all-time greats, especially defenseman, didn't play for bad teams. It's because they were so good that they made their teams good.