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When does dump-and-chase make more sense than carrying the puck?

DAChampion

DAChampion

Registered User
May 28, 2011
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There are some teams (coaches) in the NHL that prefer to carry the puck into the zone, and other teams that prefer to dump-and-chase.

In which context is one strategy superior to the other? What is it about the Habs roster that makes Therrien believe that the Habs are suited to a dump-and-chase system? How would the roster need to be changed for carry-the-puck to become more effective?
 
DAChampion said:
There are some teams (coaches) in the NHL that prefer to carry the puck into the zone, and other teams that prefer to dump-and-chase.

In which context is one strategy superior to the other? What is it about the Habs roster that makes Therrien believe that the Habs are suited to a dump-and-chase system? How would the roster need to be changed for carry-the-puck to become more effective?
Click to expand...
I think it all comes down to the players you have in your organization. If you have small forwards, dump and chase is not favorable unless you're playing against a defensive squad that lacks mobility but in today's NHL those are rare. Now with the way the NHL is being refereed, there's no point in doing a dump and chase when you have small players, the penalties barely get called and they wear out as the season goes by. I think Martin's system (at least the idea of it) was smarter than what Therrien has in place right now. Martin never got to have two excellent puck movers on the team at the same time. Now I don't know what changed from the first 30 games of last season to now but we play a different game. A lot more passive on the forecheck and last year the transitions were a lot faster. We play almost a collapse style in our own end (partly the reason why Gorges hasn't been brutal this season) and the identity that we had last season is now gone. That stretch last season was the most dominant stretch I've seen as a fan. We were not only winning, but we were dominant and we were outpossessing other teams. We can't say the same this year. I don't know if teams have figured out our weaknesses and are capitalizing on them or the player's are just tired of Therrien.

I think what Therrien has in mind is plays like the one Eller makes on this goal: Now obviously it took practically a perfect shot to beat Lehtonen but I don't know why we don't see plays like that more often on the PP or at ES. It can lead to a) a shot like the one Eller took b) a 2 on 1 if one of the player gets in a favorable postion or c) puck carrier goes behind the net and a player can crash the net.

I think in today's NHL what makes a team better than another are their depth up front (you don't need any superstars) and their defense + goalie. You need a balance of size and skill. I think the team we need to follow isn't Chicago but teams like St. Louis and LA. We have some similitude but we have a lot of work to do to compete with their depth both on defense and offense. We have some elite talent in all positions (Pacioretty, Subban and Price). Those teams have guys that they groomed but they also have a lot of guys that they either signed or traded for. Bergevin can't rely solely on building from within because while the DLR/Hudon/Tinordi/Beaulieus of our prospect pool are developing, Plekanec/Markov aren't getting any younger.
 
It never makes more sense.

There was a table of different teams showing when each team carry the puck in vs dump it in and how many shots they generate using each strategy.
Every single team generates more shooting when they carry it in. I don't think you really needed a table to figure this one out, but it was good to see.

Here's a link:
http://www.sloansportsconference.co..., Neutral, And Defensive Zone Performance.pdf
 
We are a dump and chase team cause there's only guy 2 guys that can carry the puck into the zone, one plays D and the other's out with a broken hand, but there's a 'minor' component missing from the dump and chase plan

Retrieve

Otherwise it's just turning over possession

Early in the season we had more success with it when the refs actually called interference on the D for holding the player up and we could use our speed

Now it usually comes down to a board battle, unfortunately the only guys we have that win those have limited offensive skill

Square Peg meet Round Hole, Habs are just not built to be a gritty puck retrieving team and most of our prospects will struggle as well
 
Yeah have to say I think employing a dump and chase strategy could be reasonable if the coach assumes his forwards can win the board battles. Habs' forwards are sometimes a foot shorter and 40lbs lighter than the defencemen they'll be meeting and battling down low, however some insist size and strength do not matter in a physical contest... :dunno:
 
JLP said:
Yeah have to say I think employing a dump and chase strategy could be reasonable if the coach assumes his forwards can win the board battles. Habs' forwards are sometimes a foot shorter and 40lbs lighter than the defencemen they'll be meeting and battling down low, however some insist size and strength do not matter in a physical contest... :dunno:
Click to expand...

They may not matter if you don't want to win the boards battle.
 
What's funny is a lot of the bigger and stronger teams in the league are possession beasts, not dump and chase teams - the Kings for instance. Dump and chase makes sense for bottom lines to tire out the opposition, but if your entire team is doing it...you probably aren't a very skilled team.

JLP said:
Yeah have to say I think employing a dump and chase strategy could be reasonable if the coach assumes his forwards can win the board battles. Habs' forwards are sometimes a foot shorter and 40lbs lighter than the defencemen they'll be meeting and battling down low, however some insist size and strength do not matter in a physical contest... :dunno:
Click to expand...

The insecurity among some fans is amazing.
 
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Kriss E said:
It never makes more sense.

There was a table of different teams showing when each team carry the puck in vs dump it in and how many shots they generate using each strategy.
Every single team generates more shooting when they carry it in. I don't think you really needed a table to figure this one out, but it was good to see.

Here's a link:
http://www.sloansportsconference.co..., Neutral, And Defensive Zone Performance.pdf
Click to expand...


The Habs definately have the skillset to carry but Therrein seemingly insists on dump-and-chase.

I'd love to see a breakdown of Chicago's zone entry stats.

Below is an analysis of LA's shot differential (related to zone entry):

http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2014/1/9/5278996/los-angeles-kings-stats-shot-differential-really-good
 
When your defensive system cannot spring back into offense fast enough you are typically forced to dump and chase because the opposition's defense has plenty of time to setup whatever neutral zone containment strategy they see fit.

Basically the context is how good your defense is and how much freedom your forwards have to spring your offense. If it's good enough then your forwards will have plenty of space to carry the puck, otherwise it'll be dump and chase.
 
When on average a team is a foot taller and a lot more physical than the current Habs. You need size and a willingness to use it for dump and chase to work. When a team of the size of the Habs try it the offense end up dying in the corners.
 
Kriss E said:
Therrien is being saved by one hot point streak. But ever since we've been spiraling down.
Click to expand...

Habs were pretty bad midway into that streak too. Managed to fluke out wins that they are no longer able to do.
 
Big team, strong on the boards, with a limited skillset.

Sounds like the Habs? It shouldn't, because the Habs are the polar opposite of that.
 
impudent_lowlife said:
The Habs definately have the skillset to carry but Therrein seemingly insists on dump-and-chase.

I'd love to see a breakdown of Chicago's zone entry stats.

Below is an analysis of LA's shot differential (related to zone entry):

http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2014/1/9/5278996/los-angeles-kings-stats-shot-differential-really-good
Click to expand...

I dont know about the stats, but from the 4 or 5 Hawks games I saw so far, they try to carry the puck as much as they can... they dont give you the puck, you want it ? got to take it from them, even on line changes tey try not to dump too often. They basiclly play with a "it's MY puck, get yourself another one" mentality.
 
Chris Cutter said:
I think it all comes down to the players you have in your organization. If you have small forwards, dump and chase is not favorable unless you're playing against a defensive squad that lacks mobility but in today's NHL those are rare. Now with the way the NHL is being refereed, there's no point in doing a dump and chase when you have small players, the penalties barely get called and they wear out as the season goes by. I think Martin's system (at least the idea of it) was smarter than what Therrien has in place right now. Martin never got to have two excellent puck movers on the team at the same time. Now I don't know what changed from the first 30 games of last season to now but we play a different game. A lot more passive on the forecheck and last year the transitions were a lot faster. We play almost a collapse style in our own end (partly the reason why Gorges hasn't been brutal this season) and the identity that we had last season is now gone. That stretch last season was the most dominant stretch I've seen as a fan. We were not only winning, but we were dominant and we were outpossessing other teams. We can't say the same this year. I don't know if teams have figured out our weaknesses and are capitalizing on them or the player's are just tired of Therrien.

I think what Therrien has in mind is plays like the one Eller makes on this goal: Now obviously it took practically a perfect shot to beat Lehtonen but I don't know why we don't see plays like that more often on the PP or at ES. It can lead to a) a shot like the one Eller took b) a 2 on 1 if one of the player gets in a favorable postion or c) puck carrier goes behind the net and a player can crash the net.

I think in today's NHL what makes a team better than another are their depth up front (you don't need any superstars) and their defense + goalie. You need a balance of size and skill. I think the team we need to follow isn't Chicago but teams like St. Louis and LA. We have some similitude but we have a lot of work to do to compete with their depth both on defense and offense. We have some elite talent in all positions (Pacioretty, Subban and Price). Those teams have guys that they groomed but they also have a lot of guys that they either signed or traded for. Bergevin can't rely solely on building from within because while the DLR/Hudon/Tinordi/Beaulieus of our prospect pool are developing, Plekanec/Markov aren't getting any younger.
Click to expand...


good post, Habs are still retooling, we all want to win now but the habs still need to make changes. It's no longer a small team but Habs still have too many small top 6 players. Proof is the 5 on 5 play, it's bad because habs lose almost all the battles 1 on 1 ( try hard but still too small). Change only 3 players or so for some as good but bigger players and the 5 on 5 would be a lot better. Yes some prospects are looking good but still NOT the BIG assets needed. The good news is MB can and will make 2 trades that will make that BIG impact. No 50 goal guys but just BIG strong and can put up 20-25 goals but be very hard to play against. MB will have a war chest this summer. Now that the habs are getting better many UFA's will want to come to MTL now. Some of the Hab prospects will come up and remember they will be cheap for a few years and giving MB more WAR CHEST. Make this years playoffs? yes but 1st or 2nd round and OUT again. Now next year will be a different matter. Beaulieu and Tinordi will come up but don't expect them to hit a good stride until the second half of next year. With 2-3 changes on the top 9 this also will take half the season to show the results. I fully expect the Habs to do a lot better for NEXT years playoffs. Much harder to play against. The biggest factor of all is that the Habs management know exactly what they have and what is needed, it's really clear. MB can't just go crazy making trades, it takes two to make a trade and everybody wants are best players. The money keeps rolling in so Molson has NO PROBLEM waiting for the MB plan to bring the Habs to the top 4 of the league. It's we fans that have a problem waiting.
 
ECWHSWI said:
I dont know about the stats, but from the 4 or 5 Hawks games I saw so far, they try to carry the puck as much as they can... they dont give you the puck, you want it ? got to take it from them, even on line changes tey try not to dump too often. They basiclly play with a "it's MY puck, get yourself another one" mentality.
Click to expand...

The Habs had good possession stats last year, really good at 5-on-5. WTF happened between last year and this year?
 
DAChampion said:
There are some teams (coaches) in the NHL that prefer to carry the puck into the zone, and other teams that prefer to dump-and-chase.

In which context is one strategy superior to the other? What is it about the Habs roster that makes Therrien believe that the Habs are suited to a dump-and-chase system? How would the roster need to be changed for carry-the-puck to become more effective?
Click to expand...

I'm sure every coach in the NHL will tell their players to carry it in if there is a lane. If the opposition has 3-4 guys on the blueline then you have little choice but to dump it.

It's not really a coaching strategy it's about game situations. Fans can't seem to grasp that...
 
Kriss E said:
Therrien is being saved by one hot point streak. But ever since we've been spiraling down.
Click to expand...

He has a 54-29-10 since taking over...must be some kind of winning steak!

impudent_lowlife said:
The Habs had good possession stats last year, really good at 5-on-5. WTF happened between last year and this year?
Click to expand...

A lot of guys have dropped off...Eller Gallagher Bourque Ryder/Briere...lost the 3rd scoring line.
 
Monctonscout said:
I'm sure every coach in the NHL will tell their players to carry it in if there is a lane. If the opposition has 3-4 guys on the blueline then you have little choice but to dump it.

It's not really a coaching strategy it's about game situations. Fans can't seem to grasp that...
Click to expand...

The conservative, old-school approach is dump-and-chase.

Chicago, St, Louis, San Jose obviously employ a system that emphasizes carrying rather than dumping. The Sloan link posted above shows why:

More shots and more goals for - by a large margin.

Obviously score effects, line changes etc. will have an impact on in-game strategy but teams that carry more will score more and win more.
 
Most teams dump and chase at times. Heck Pittsburgh did against Edmonton last night. Kunitz even said it in his interview between periods. They were trying to get pucks in deep to get the D to have to turn and battle for pucks down low. The idea was to eventually tire, grind them out.

I can see why this makes sense for the Habs, not a lot of skill to beat teams on the rush, but a lot of speed, so odds are you can get to pucks first a lot of the time and you're reducing the chances of neutral zone turnovers.
 
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impudent_lowlife said:
The conservative, old-school approach is dump-and-chase.

Chicago, St, Louis, San Jose obviously employ a system that emphasizes carrying rather than dumping. The Sloan link posted above shows why:

More shots and more goals for - by a large margin.

Obviously score effects, line changes etc. will have an impact on in-game strategy but teams that carry more will score more and win more.
Click to expand...

You must not have watched a lot of Chicago St Louis and San Jose games, those teams dump the puck when they don't have numbers. The only exception is Kane who has ridiculous stickhandling skill and will sometimes carry it in against 3-4 man fronts. Most players trying to carry the puck in against 3-4 players on the line will cause a turnover and their coach will be pissed.

No team in the NHL dumps the puck on a 3 on 2 or 2 on 1...it's about numbers not a system. Ev ery team will dump in coming in 1 on 3(with very rare exceptions).
 
Monctonscout said:
He has a 54-29-10 since taking over...must be some kind of winning steak!
Click to expand...

The Habs were a good possession team last year. Dump-and-chase was not their system.

A lot of guys have dropped off...Eller Gallagher Bourque Ryder/Briere...lost the 3rd scoring line.
Click to expand...

As we have established that dump-and-chase is a failed system employed by conservative coaches that generates far less offence than carrying, is it any wonder that players numbers are lower this year than last?
 
impudent_lowlife said:
The Habs were a good possession team last year. Dump-and-chase was not their system.



As we have established that dump-and-chase is a failed system employed by conservative coaches that generates far less offence than carrying, is it any wonder that players numbers are lower this year than last?
Click to expand...

Pittsburgh is the highest scoring team in the East and Chris Kunitz was interviewed between periods last night and said very clearly their strategy was to dump pucks in behind the Edmonton D and grind them down low.

You've established what again?
 
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