What should happen to Civic Arena site?

[Fordy]

Ditto!!! A slum is a slum, a project a project, a bad neighborhood a bad neighborhood... regardless of what the diversity or race that resides there.

They're all equally trash to you, we get it. They don't deserve the jobs or the houses that were taken from them, as you've said. You even went as far as to lie about what percentage of employment they were asking for.

 

[Shady Machine]

I'm not arguing that. I'm fine with them getting a higher percentage of jobs. I just don't think housing there is the best idea. To me, housing is a fixed income. Say you have 50 houses, you can only earn income from the rent on those 50 houses.

If businesses go there instead, the income earned is variable because obviously leasing fees are higher for businesses, as well as property tax, etc. Much more money to be made from businesses than housing.

Literally the only thing we are disagreeing on is the housing. I'm all for providing jobs to those who need them. The more people that have jobs, and can contribute to the economy, the better.

That's fair but the Penguins' development site is including residential housing. If that's the case, should there be any consideration for low income housing? I'm asking in your opinion.

 

[mikethelegacy]

You don't think having a house affects people having jobs and contributing to the economy? 8000 homes were destroyed. You don't even want to put half of them back?

I'm saying that the businesses will contribute to the existing residents of the Hill in greater numbers than housing, yes. Those 8000 residents aren't still living on the streets. They've found new homes, you're talking about expanding the Hill District, i'm talking about bettering the lives of the people that already live there. We are talking about two different things.

I'm not trying to argue with you, dude.

 

[Fordy]

I'm saying that the businesses will contribute to the existing residents of the Hill in greater numbers than housing, yes. Those 8000 residents aren't still living on the streets. They've found new homes, you're talking about expanding the Hill District, i'm talking about bettering the lives of the people that already live there. We are talking about two different things.

I'm not trying to argue with you, dude.

Again, the fantasy world. You can't say that at all, and regardless, it doesn't matter. The Hill District was hurt, not just the individuals.

 

[mikethelegacy]

That's fair but the Penguins' development site is including residential housing. If that's the case, should there be any consideration for low income housing? I'm asking in your opinion.

If it does, there are plenty of people on the Hill that work hard and are upstanding people. They should get first dibs. The problem is, how is that achieved? Obviously, there should be criminal background checks to live there, just as there when applying for section 8, etc. Perhaps the people that live there should be required to work in or around the area of the arena/hill district, etc?

It's a rocky road, because how do you contribute positively to the Hill, without contributing to the crime that lives there as well? Typically, someone who holds a job isn't someone living a life of crime, so maybe that's a prerequisite? IDK.

All I can say is, I'm glad I'm not a politician.

 

[Shady Machine]

From the site that Jaded posted on the effect's of building the civic arens:

Construction of the Civic Arena began when ground was broken on April 25, 1958. The Civic Arena was an architectural and engineering success. It provided Pittsburgh with a stage to host large concerts and sporting events for fifty years. Millions of Pittsburgh area residents celebrated the glory days of arena rock and championship sports seasons at the arena. But the urban renewal project that the arena was the center piece of was a failure. A culturally vibrant historic neighborhood was totally destroyed to clear way for the un-built "cultural acropolis". The Civic Arena became the symbol of the uncaring top-down planned urban "removal" project. Not a single historic building was persevered Funds were never provided to build the promised concert hall, theaters, art museum, and exhibit space. With its street connection to downtown cut off and the loss of the lower Hill population the entire Hill District and its great musical and social cultures went into ruin not "renewal".

Pittsburgh by 1960 became one of the most segregated big cities in the country. With access to downtown cut off by the Crosstown Boulevard and the loss of hundred of business and thousands of people the remaining Centre Avenue businesses and the rest of the Hill District went into decline. Population of the Lower Hill dropped from 17,334 in 1950 to 2,459 in 1990. Population of the entire Hill District dropped from a high of 62,500 residents in 1950 to 17,050 in 2010. The Urban Renewal of the Lower Hill was a disastrous failure.

Yes it's 50 years later and there is a limit to what the Penguins are responsible for, but let's at least admit this is a serious issue and a sensitive one to people that still live in the Hill today. Regardless of whatever development path is chosen, it seems logical to include community leaders in that area in the discussions. The development needs to tie the Hill District to the rest of the city in some way.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

That's fair but the Penguins' development site is including residential housing. If that's the case, should there be any consideration for low income housing? I'm asking in your opinion.

I know that you asked his opinion, but I will ask a question back to you.

Is the point of this project a social welfare exercise, or making the Pens a success so that they can stay here for the next century? To me that was always the primary goal. They already got screwed with having the casino go by the Steelers and Pirates rather than by them, along with all the activity and commerce that would have generated. And as I pointed out, they have given back a lot already to the Hill. Millions of dollars in projects and favorite position in hiring. Where goes the line you draw?

And why single out the hill? At any given time I would imagine a hundred or more properties in the region are being taken by eminent domain. In the last half century thousands if not tens of thousands of properties have been taken by the government for projects or to make sure the property gets its highest and best use.

Do we owe them anything a half century later? I am imagining the the Native Americans who were here two and a half centuries ago are wondering what all the fuss is about, they got it a lot whole lot worse.

The point is that we need to be cognizant of our past, but we also need to be careful about our future. We do no one any good if we do not ensure that whatever we do there causes the area to thrive and succeed.

 

[VirginiaBob]

What a shame that repaying debts properly takes time. What a shame that your family has to see poor people that have no jobs and nowhere else to live after their business and homes were leveled for a theater. Poor you, it must be hard.

Poor you, if they built more businesses there, you'd have to see more Asian people.

 

[mikethelegacy]

I know that you asked his opinion, but I will ask a question back to you.

Is the point of this project a social welfare exercise, or making the Pens a success so that they can stay here for the next century? To me that was always the primary goal. They already got screwed with having the casino go by the Steelers and Pirates rather than by them, along with all the activity and commerce that would have generated. And as I pointed out, they have given back a lot already to the Hill. Millions of dollars in projects and favorite position in hiring. Where goes the line you draw?

And why single out the hill? At any given time I would imagine a hundred or more properties in the region are being taken by eminent domain. In the last half century thousands if not tens of thousands of properties have been taken by the government for projects or to make sure the property gets its highest and best use.

Do we owe them anything a half century later? I am imagining the the Native Americans who were here two and a half centuries ago are wondering what all the fuss is about, they got it a lot whole lot worse.

The point is that we need to be cognizant of our past, but we also need to be careful about our future. We do no one any good if we do not ensure that whatever we do there causes the area to thrive and succeed.

Well said.

Side note, there needs to be a like button on this site.

 

[Fordy]

If it does, there are plenty of people on the Hill that work hard and are upstanding people. They should get first dibs. The problem is, how is that achieved? Obviously, there should be criminal background checks to live there, just as there when applying for section 8, etc. Perhaps the people that live there should be required to work in or around the area of the arena/hill district, etc?

It's a rocky road, because how do you contribute positively to the Hill, without contributing to the crime that lives there as well? Typically, someone who holds a job isn't someone living a life of crime, so maybe that's a prerequisite? IDK.

All I can say is, I'm glad I'm not a politician.

The point is to help the people in poverty, not the ones that already have a job.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

As an aside, I feel bad for Cole when he comes for the cleanup on aisle five that we left for him.

 

[Fordy]

Poor you, if they built more businesses there, you'd have to see more Asian people.

Hilarious! The thread has moved on, now you're just trying to get it closed.

 

[Shady Machine]

If it does, there are plenty of people on the Hill that work hard and are upstanding people. They should get first dibs. The problem is, how is that achieved? Obviously, there should be criminal background checks to live there, just as there when applying for section 8, etc. Perhaps the people that live there should be required to work in or around the area of the arena/hill district, etc?

It's a rocky road, because how do you contribute positively to the Hill, without contributing to the crime that lives there as well? Typically, someone who holds a job isn't someone living a life of crime, so maybe that's a prerequisite? IDK.

All I can say is, I'm glad I'm not a politician.

Agreed all around. It is extremely tough to live in a community where criminal activity is common and not get caught up in it. To me, that's all the more reason to encourage giving people that want opportunities to better their lives those opportunities.

My wife was a GM of a DQ in Cleveland and had an employee who was from East Cleveland (a really tough area of the city). He took a bus 50 minutes to and from work and worked really hard. He has a rough family history. Anyway, he got beat up frequently by gang members and such because they said he thought he was better than them. All for holding a 10 dollar an hour job.

My point in sharing that story is that it's easy to look in from the outside and just say "we don't want that crime or those people living near us" but we don't fully understand the picture. What if my wife's employee was your nephew? What if you were born there? These are real issues and as a society we need to understand them before we can find real solutions.

I don't know what role the Penguin's should play here, but as a major member of that community and with development rights of that land, I think it's in their best interests to at least listen to leaders in the Hill. It sounds as though they are doing that.

 

[Fordy]

I know that you asked his opinion, but I will ask a question back to you.

Is the point of this project a social welfare exercise, or making the Pens a success so that they can stay here for the next century? To me that was always the primary goal. They already got screwed with having the casino go by the Steelers and Pirates rather than by them, along with all the activity and commerce that would have generated. And as I pointed out, they have given back a lot already to the Hill. Millions of dollars in projects and favorite position in hiring. Where goes the line you draw?

The effects of the construction require it to be, I'd say.

And why single out the hill? At any given time I would imagine a hundred or more properties in the region are being taken by eminent domain. In the last half century thousands if not tens of thousands of properties have been taken by the government for projects or to make sure the property gets its highest and best use.

It's not singling anything out. Eminent domain happens all the time and is usually an injustice every time, this one just happens to be well publicized and its effects well documented. This doesn't make it less important.

Do we owe them anything a half century later? I am imagining the the Native Americans who were here two and a half centuries ago are wondering what all the fuss is about, they got it a lot whole lot worse.

The severity of that crime doesn't make this one matter less. What was done to the Native Americans could never be repaid. It was a genocide. You do your best for them. This was on a much smaller scale and therefore more can be done it make good.

 

[mikethelegacy]

The point is to help the people in poverty, not the ones that already have a job.

I'm saying the new business development could employ AND HOUSE the people that they employ. This keeps not only the property taxes within the Hill, it also earns local tax revenue from the Hill residents it's employing as well.

The people of the Hill District who own/rent homes are gaining some sort of income, they aren't just living there for free (well, some maybe), so a lot hold down jobs, even if it's just McDonalds or doing work on the side for people.

My thoughts are that employment comes first, housing comes second. Who knows, all someone may need is to get that reference from a business that is created and that can teach them the skills and gain them the notoriety needed to continue/advance their careers. I've met plenty of down-on-their-luck people who literally just needed to be taught the confidence to believe that they are good enough to succeed.

A long-term social change in mindset is much more important than a few houses if you ask me.

 

[Shady Machine]

I know that you asked his opinion, but I will ask a question back to you.

Is the point of this project a social welfare exercise, or making the Pens a success so that they can stay here for the next century? To me that was always the primary goal. They already got screwed with having the casino go by the Steelers and Pirates rather than by them, along with all the activity and commerce that would have generated. And as I pointed out, they have given back a lot already to the Hill. Millions of dollars in projects and favorite position in hiring. Where goes the line you draw?

And why single out the hill? At any given time I would imagine a hundred or more properties in the region are being taken by eminent domain. In the last half century thousands if not tens of thousands of properties have been taken by the government for projects or to make sure the property gets its highest and best use.

Do we owe them anything a half century later? I am imagining the the Native Americans who were here two and a half centuries ago are wondering what all the fuss is about, they got it a lot whole lot worse.

The point is that we need to be cognizant of our past, but we also need to be careful about our future. We do no one any good if we do not ensure that whatever we do there causes the area to thrive and succeed.

I agree in general. Like I said, I don't know all of the history or how much the Penguin's have done. I was just saying that IF residential properties are a part of the development, it isn't unreasonable to have some low income housing there. The Penguin's are agreeing to that on some level. I think what the Hill leaders are asking for is going too far. Having housing for people that make 30% of median income in that development doesn't really make a lot of sense. Having jobs where those people can start making more than 30% of median income makes more sense.

I don't really get the point of bringing up worse injustices though. If it was wrong, it was wrong. The more challenging question is how do we right a historical wrong. I don't think anyone has figured out the answer to that. You are right though that at some point you just have to move on.

 

[blueliner18]

Wow really? Obviously home or businesses weren't there in the last 20 years because there was a giant arena there. You just seem to want to complain for the sake of complaining.

I'm not the one who claimed that there were any homes or businesses there... Fordy was... I was arguing his point about how the Penguins should be responsible for offering Hill District residents housing and handouts now for a building that was built in 1961 and that the Penguins never owned. So if you want to be official nothing was there but the arena for 50 years. Even then what was there, was empty, run down, or abandoned buildings.

 

[Shady Machine]

As an aside, I feel bad for Cole when he comes for the cleanup on aisle five that we left for him.

As do I. I know the thread will be on it's last leg once a mod sees it.

 

[Fordy]

I'm saying the new business development could employ AND HOUSE the people that they employ. This keeps not only the property taxes within the Hill, it also earns local tax revenue from the Hill residents it's employing as well.

The people of the Hill District who own/rent homes are gaining some sort of income, they aren't just living there for free (well, some maybe), so a lot hold down jobs, even if it's just McDonalds or doing work on the side for people.

My thoughts are that employment comes first, housing comes second. Who knows, all someone may need is to get that reference from a business that is created and that can teach them the skills and gain them the notoriety needed to continue/advance their careers. I've met plenty of down-on-their-luck people who literally just needed to be taught the confidence to believe that they are good enough to succeed.

A long-term social change in mindset is much more important than a few houses if you ask me.

But it doesn't. For the vast majority housing needs to come first.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The effects of the construction require it to be, I'd say.



It's not singling anything out. Eminent domain happens all the time and is usually an injustice every time, this one just happens to be well publicized and its effects well documented. This doesn't make it less important.



The severity of that crime doesn't make this one matter less. What was done to the Native Americans could never be repaid. It was a genocide. You do your best for them. This was on a much smaller scale and therefore more can be done it make good.

I don't think that we are disagreeing. It just becomes hard when you try and quantify a 'wrong' with a set dollar amount. Add race into the mixture and all reason goes out the window as we see in this thread.

As you saw I am not only cognizant but sympathetic to the history of what happened on the hill. But we can not lose sight of what this entire project is about either.

And should be able to have a reasonable conversation about that and where to draw those lines.

Right now we have an arena and very little around it as a draw. The Hill should have some bones thrown its way, and they have had many already, but the primary focus should be to change the fact that aside from CEC there is almost nothing there.

 

[Fordy]

I'm not the one who claimed that there were any homes or businesses there... Fordy was... I was arguing his point about how the Penguins should be responsible for offering Hill District residents housing and handouts now for a building that was built in 1961 and that the Penguins never owned. So if you want to be official nothing was there but the arena for 50 years. Even then what was there, was empty, run down, or abandoned buildings.

I don't know how you expect to post in this thread when you can't even agree with everyone else on the factual history of the area.

 

[Fordy]

I don't think that we are disagreeing. It just becomes hard when you try and quantify a 'wrong' with a set dollar amount. Add race into the mixture and all reason goes out the window as we see in this thread.

As you saw I am not only cognizant but sympathetic to the history of what happened on the hill. But we can not lose sight of what this entire project is about either.

And should be able to have a reasonable conversation about that and where to draw those lines.

Right now we have an arena and very little around it as a draw. The Hill should have some bones thrown its way, and they have had many already, but the primary focus should be to change the fact that aside from CEC there is almost nothing there.

Well then the primary focus is what we disagree on. Although I don't consider it mutually exclusive. I think the priorities are out of whack.

 

[mikethelegacy]

Agreed all around. It is extremely tough to live in a community where criminal activity is common and not get caught up in it. To me, that's all the more reason to encourage giving people that want opportunities to better their lives those opportunities.

My wife was a GM of a DQ in Cleveland and had an employee who was from East Cleveland (a really tough area of the city). He took a bus 50 minutes to and from work and worked really hard. He has a rough family history. Anyway, he got beat up frequently by gang members and such because they said he thought he was better than them. All for holding a 10 dollar an hour job.

My point in sharing that story is that it's easy to look in from the outside and just say "we don't want that crime or those people living near us" but we don't fully understand the picture. What if my wife's employee was your nephew? What if you were born there? These are real issues and as a society we need to understand them before we can find real solutions.

I don't know what role the Penguin's should play here, but as a major member of that community and with development rights of that land, I think it's in their best interests to at least listen to leaders in the Hill. It sounds as though they are doing that.

I agree. I try to take that approach when thinking of things as well. It's easy to get caught up in our own fortunate situations and forget about those that are struggling.

I want to help low-income citizens as much as the next guy, the only thing I don't want closer to me is the crime, and that makes it hard, since normally those two things go hand-in-hand.

A few bad people give an entire community a bad name and it's unfortunate. I wish the system was better-suited to reward people like your wife's employee and it's not. That's the real shame.

 

[Fordy]

I agree. I try to take that approach when thinking of things as well. It's easy to get caught up in our own fortunate situations and forget about those that are struggling.

I want to help low-income citizens as much as the next guy, the only thing I don't want closer to me is the crime, and that makes it hard, since normally those two things go hand-in-hand.

A few bad people give an entire community a bad name and it's unfortunate. I wish the system was better-suited to reward people like your wife's employee and it's not. That's the real shame.

If you increase crime but help a larger number of people who cares?

 

[blueliner18]

They're all equally trash to you, we get it. They don't deserve the jobs or the houses that were taken from them, as you've said. You even went as far as to lie about what percentage of employment they were asking for.

Actually I did... I should have said 50%!!!! 35% minorities, 15% women (I guess who may or may not also be minority).