What is wrong with this team - rant thread

[DueDiligence]

It's pretty simple really: the team gives up way too many goals against. It's not a new problem and has been happening all season long.

Not rocket science.

Actually the Leafs give up far too many scoring opportunities which leads to goals. All season they have played a risk/reward style relying on making the most of their chances and having their goalies play well.
In California the leafs could have easily lost all three games if Bernier and Reimer had not played well. They come back with 4 out of 6 points they didn't really deserve. Most fans are happy with that and ignore the obvious warning signs of the Leafs poor play.
Now that the Leafs aren't scoring as much and that they are getting very average goaltending they are losing and everyone's picking on individuals like Reimer and Clarkson. BUT nothing has changed with how the team plays. If Bernier comes back and plays well people will be happy; he will disguise their faults. But the Leafs will still be a bad defensive team that takes too many chances, gives up too many turnovers and are sloppy in their own end.

 

[LeafOfBread]

^ I can get behind that. I don't think I'd let Jay walk though, he's one of the best 4th line centres in the league, Randy just overuses him. Keep him at 10 minutes a game, out for defensive zone draws and PK and he's golden. Obviously depends on how much he asks for, but if he's cheap there's no reason to let him go.

I'm really considering shipping out Lupul. He kind of epitomizes the things I don't like about this team. Don't get me wrong, I'm still a fan of him and when he's ON it's a thing of beauty to watch, but when he's off, he's horrible, and his defensive effort really hurts this team.

Phaneuf I think is injured. He's taken off multiple practices as "maintenance days" and looks noticeably slower than usual lately. Plus he takes a century to get up if he falls... we need other d-men to support him because it's clearly breaking him down to have to continuously shoulder the toughest minutes alone. Tbh, I think Wilson used him better than Carlyle, Randy is running him into the ground.

 

[Joey Hoser]

Ultimately it comes down to not rebuilding, specifically coming out of the previous lockout in '04.

Burke had a pretty good go at building a team without doing so through the draft. He made some stellar trades and did a great job building up assets for the organization, but at the end of the day, you can't just shove a bunch of players onto a bench and expect them to be a contender regardless of talent. You gotta let the oganization slowly build itself up and create their own identity, then just smooth out the wrinkles when the time is right.

 

[hotpaws]

The teams flaws have been masked by stellar goaltending all year and now that we've received avg goaltending (yes avg) outside of last night we're not good enough to win.

Soft one way wingers who are weak/mediocre defensively combined with sub par defensive defenseman as a group isn't a recipe for success.

The wingers in philosophy of team building which goes against how successful teams are built is going to lead us no where . Using the goalie or the coach as a scapegoat is just ignoring the flaws and is an excuse for a fan base desperate to believe we're better than we are .

We're a capped out team with no potential impact players in our system . The only hope for this team is to somehow turn some of our current assets into hard working two way players even if we give up some offense in the process.

I'll put it this way , are the Rangers a better team by trading Callahan-Dubinsky-Anisimov for Nash and MSL ? Skill wise they improved but it hasn't translated to the standings so far .

 

[janesy12]

I honestly think its a mental thing.
Team seems to be more confident with Bernier in the net. They have confidence to take chances and allow their goaltender to make the save that they need.
Its easy for Kessel and JVR to take chances and fly the zone because they know they'll get a save from Bernier.

Seems like with Reimer the entire team is so nervous to let a shot on goal they just don't want to be creative. To me, we haven't been playing that bad as a team. It's just hard to win a game when you have to stage a comeback, every. single. game.

If Bernier comes back soon, the Leafs may get that confidence back and make a run at a playoff spot. If Bernier is out past the Blues game, you can kiss the playoffs good bye, because every Leaf has given up on James Reimer, whether they admit it or not.

 

[sommervr]

Here's what I posted in another thread



I usually disagree with Interactif on most things, but he nailed it with his complaints of the team's strength and conditioning and Belza's training programs earlier in the season and beyond.

I'm not going to pretend like I'm some expert who knows it all, but generally from what I've gathered reading about Belza's training programs, Roberts and other people with a background in sports training/kinesiology and those who do hockey specific training have been rather critical of aerobic training and movements and the kind of stuff Belza apparently does with the team.

This goes with other guys as well. Biggs basically trained in the offseason like a defensive lineman. Check out YT to see him dead lifting 500 lbs... Impressive but hardly hockey training. He came in this year way too heavy and not enough quick-twitch.

For the amount of money the leafs are investing in these guys the training seems haphazard.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I also think - if the Leafs miss the playoffs - [and I'm still thinking they can make it]..

in the last three years this team has been part of three mindblowingly devastating collapses

the Eighteen Wheeler
Game Seven
And how this one shapes up

Eleven players were part of it, remove Orr - he's moot in this discussion.

Reimer
Phaneuf, Gunnarson Gardiner [for the most part]
McClemment [Orr]
Lupul [Kadri], Kulemin
Bozak, Kessel [JVR]

(Kadri wasn't really a part of the 18 wheeler, neither was JVR, and Orr's just Orr)

that's horrendously bad. I honestly think there needs to be a shot across the bow of this team. I personally would at this point, let McClemment walk, trade Lupul, and quite frankly - and I don't mind him - if you can get a great deal on Phaneuf - I'd do it.

I don't have an issue with Clarkson - [brutal year], but if you can get rid of him, I'd do it, and I'd just make this team older in some positions.

... Is this the real Daisy?

And yes I agree - if the Leafs bow out this season something in the core needs to be shaken up ... Your key guys cannot keep being apart of these big collapses, fortunately I think Nonis will not allow this team to remain as is if the bottom completely falls out (or if they barely get in and get dummied in the first round) ... Remember prior to the win streak in January Nonis allegedly went down to the dressing room and told the team that if they don't start playing better, big changes will happen .. I can see Nonis doing that in the off season in this scenario.. In-season this is a risky move that can lead to a short-sighted decision, but give Nonis time to work some things around prior to the draft and June could be quite the shake up for the Leafs

 

[LeafOfBread]

This goes with other guys as well. Biggs basically trained in the offseason like a defensive lineman. Check out YT to see him dead lifting 500 lbs... Impressive but hardly hockey training. He came in this year way too heavy and not enough quick-twitch.

For the amount of money the leafs are investing in these guys the training seems haphazard.

Lol his form while deadlifting made me cringe too, oh my god I felt my back lock up while watching that..

 

[Joey Hoser]

This goes with other guys as well. Biggs basically trained in the offseason like a defensive lineman. Check out YT to see him dead lifting 500 lbs... Impressive but hardly hockey training. He came in this year way too heavy and not enough quick-twitch.

For the amount of money the leafs are investing in these guys the training seems haphazard.

Of course. Seeing as that's the only excersize we saw him do on youtube, we can conclude with certainty that that's the only type of training he did all summer.



I don't mean to imply that the Leafs organization is infallible, but they have professional trainers with decades of experience in building up hockey players. They know better than do you from watching a several-second long youtube video and concluding he's doing if wrong, FFS.

 

[LeafOfBread]

Of course. Seeing as that's the only excersize we saw him do on youtube, we can conclude with certainty that that's the only type of training he did all summer.

He's referring to a video where he did multiple workouts, the deadlifting was just one part of it. Tbh I don't think there's anything wrong with deadlifting though even for hockey, it's great for your entire body and helps develop a lot of core and lower body strength

 

[Daisy Jane]

... Is this the real Daisy?

And yes I agree - if the Leafs bow out this season something in the core needs to be shaken up ... Your key guys cannot keep being apart of these big collapses, fortunately I think Nonis will not allow this team to remain as is if the bottom completely falls out (or if they barely get in and get dummied in the first round) ... Remember prior to the win streak in January Nonis allegedly went down to the dressing room and told the team that if they don't start playing better, big changes will happen .. I can see Nonis doing that in the off season in this scenario.. In-season this is a risky move that can lead to a short-sighted decision, but give Nonis time to work some things around prior to the draft and June could be quite the shake up for the Leafs

apparently i'm scaring some people - I guess I've been a little too cranky lately

Like I said - I don't know why I have this feeling, but I just think a coaching change will come. But I don't know [now] if the change will happen if Nonis is more in charge - because I think if something isn't changed next year, Leiweke will not hesitate to blow it up. And he's the ultimate wild card. He has his fingers ALL over TFC: and they look good. He brought in a stud in that basketball guy, and even with the very very very very weak eastern conference, the Raptors are making the playoffs.

And the Leafs - once again is spiraling out of control. And let's not kid ourselves. if TFC won the championship, Raptors won ... whatever they win, the Rock wins almost every few years and the Leafs still look bad it wouldn't matter. And I don't think Leiweke will like that. But we can't have this cycle:

Quinn is demoted to coach. JFJ comes in.
Quinn is fired. Maurice is brought in.
Maurice is fired. Wilson is hired
JFJ is fired. Burke comes in.
Wilson is fired. Carlyle comes in
Burke is fired. Nonis is in.
So it's going to be both - or none.

because I don't see this organization firing one, giving Nonis one more year and then fire both. that makes no sense. [so - naturally this is probably exactly what's gonna happen ]

Yah. I remember that. Nonis said changes will come if they don't play well. again - it can't be a 'weak' trade. It needs to be two [or more] core players. So I'm willing to give Nonis one more year.

 

[Trapper]

Think you just made my point for me.

Thanks pal

I absolutely made your point.
That good players don't always become good teams even if you wish it.

 

[htpwn]

New Jersey shots: 24
Toronto shots: 23

Montreal shots: 36
Toronto shots: 36

Tampa shots: 30
Toronto shots: 39

Detroit shots: 31
Toronto shots: 33

Washington shots: 29
Toronto shots: 32

Even when we lose, we give a giant middle finger to Corsi.

The other thing, though, that this shows is that we haven't been playing bad. I think everybody is kind of stuck in October. I'm reading this thread, I'm listening to Tim and Sid, and everything is about how bad this defense is and how we're leaving our goalies out to dry. It still is bad and we do still give up too many Grade A chances, but the team has greatly improved since then. Just as you would expect, the defense couldn't keep playing as bad as it was, the addition of Gleason helped stabilize it a bit, and we've been better for it.

The key difference over the past five games has been goaltending. Where we are used to getting stellar goaltending from Bernier, we are now getting probably the worst goaltending in the league at the moment from Reimer. If we had merely average goaltending, we probably come away with a few points and nobody's having this discussion. But I guess Corsi predicted Bernier would be injured too, right stat geeks?

That isn't to say that the rest of the team is blameless. The offense has slowed down, the PK continues to be so-so, and the PP has been awful since that spree of short-handed goals. The bottom line is that they need to find a way to win games. They need to find a way to overcome. If that means putting up a touchdown to cover Reimer's errors, then so be it. If this falls apart, and remember we are still in it right now, then everybody should take the blame. I agree with those saying that big chances should follow in the off-season, including looking at moving 'core' pieces like Phaneuf or Lupul, if we fail to make the playoffs.

 

[pspot]

Best players aren't the hardest workers

 

[sommervr]

Of course. Seeing as that's the only excersize we saw him do on youtube, we can conclude with certainty that that's the only type of training he did all summer.



I don't mean to imply that the Leafs organization is infallible, but they have professional trainers with decades of experience in building up hockey players. They know better than do you from watching a several-second long youtube video and concluding he's doing if wrong, FFS.

I've been watching him play all season. He is basically a linebacker on skates. Strong as a mule but slow in transition.

FYI it is a training video and you can see exactly what he is doing. He is training in a powerlifting gym exactly like a linebacker or dlineman. Source: me who was a linebacker

 

[Beleafer19]

Ultimately it comes down to not rebuilding, specifically coming out of the previous lockout in '04.

Burke had a pretty good go at building a team without doing so through the draft. He made some stellar trades and did a great job building up assets for the organization, but at the end of the day, you can't just shove a bunch of players onto a bench and expect them to be a contender regardless of talent. You gotta let the oganization slowly build itself up and create their own identity, then just smooth out the wrinkles when the time is right.

Enough of this rebuild stuff people. We kind of already did a rebuild through trades. We have a enough players on this team who are top 15 picks. Just because we didn't draft the personally doesn't mean we didn't rebuild. What if we tanked and drafted JVR 2nd overall is there a difference that we acquired him through trade. Kadri was 7th overall, Phaneuf 9th overall, Bernier 11th overall, Kessel 5th overall, Rielly 5th overall, Gardiner 15th overall and I'm sure Lupul was good pick too. On top of that these players were already NHL ready when we got them.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Enough of this rebuild stuff people. We kind of already did a rebuild through trades. We have a enough players on this team who are top 15 picks. Just because we didn't draft the personally doesn't mean we didn't rebuild. What if we tanked and drafted JVR 2nd overall is there a difference that we acquired him through trade. Kadri was 7th overall, Phaneuf 9th overall, Bernier 11th overall, Kessel 5th overall, Rielly 5th overall, Gardiner 15th overall and I'm sure Lupul was good pick too. On top of that these players were already NHL ready when we got them.

Also the Marlies are icing a very young roster this year full of picks made in the Burke era and are contenders for the Calder .. There are some quality players that will be able to help the Leafs as depth/role players in the near future, with more prospects joining the Marlies next season

 

[Joey Hoser]

Enough of this rebuild stuff people. We kind of already did a rebuild through trades. We have a enough players on this team who are top 15 picks. Just because we didn't draft the personally doesn't mean we didn't rebuild. What if we tanked and drafted JVR 2nd overall is there a difference that we acquired him through trade. Kadri was 7th overall, Phaneuf 9th overall, Bernier 11th overall, Kessel 5th overall, Rielly 5th overall, Gardiner 15th overall and I'm sure Lupul was good pick too. On top of that these players were already NHL ready when we got them.

Did you skip my second paragraph?

 

[indigobuffalo]

An abundance of fans with no competition are what fuel this Organizational Negligence.

Until a 2nd - or even 3rd team is introduced to Southern Ontario you can expect more of the same results regardless of personnel.


Competitive Intrusion

Ottawa and Buffalo already look like Leafs home games.

You'd need more than 2 more teams to render the ACC to anything below 100% capacity.

Even at that, Toronto is such a major centre for commerce that there will always be businesses looking to get more seats.

There's absolutely zero chance of the Leafs ever being hurt by additional teams in SO.

Furthermore, the fanbase is as loyal as it gets. Few people would swap sides, other than, like me, they get season tickets to another franchise (in my case, Winnipeg) just to go to the Leafs road games, and sell off the rest of their tickets, or ostensibly attend a few games here or there but really under the context of a fan of NHL hockey and not actually as a fan of the new team.

It would be very hard for teams to have success in the SO market BECAUSE people are so nuts about the Leafs.

 

[indigobuffalo]

apparently i'm scaring some people - I guess I've been a little too cranky lately

Like I said - I don't know why I have this feeling, but I just think a coaching change will come. But I don't know [now] if the change will happen if Nonis is more in charge - because I think if something isn't changed next year, Leiweke will not hesitate to blow it up. And he's the ultimate wild card. He has his fingers ALL over TFC: and they look good. He brought in a stud in that basketball guy, and even with the very very very very weak eastern conference, the Raptors are making the playoffs.

And the Leafs - once again is spiraling out of control. And let's not kid ourselves. if TFC won the championship, Raptors won ... whatever they win, the Rock wins almost every few years and the Leafs still look bad it wouldn't matter. And I don't think Leiweke will like that. But we can't have this cycle:

Quinn is demoted to coach. JFJ comes in.
Quinn is fired. Maurice is brought in.
Maurice is fired. Wilson is hired
JFJ is fired. Burke comes in.
Wilson is fired. Carlyle comes in
Burke is fired. Nonis is in.
So it's going to be both - or none.

because I don't see this organization firing one, giving Nonis one more year and then fire both. that makes no sense. [so - naturally this is probably exactly what's gonna happen ]

Yah. I remember that. Nonis said changes will come if they don't play well. again - it can't be a 'weak' trade. It needs to be two [or more] core players. So I'm willing to give Nonis one more year.

I would venture it's any of Lupul, Kadri, and Franson

Gardiner has stepped up his play way too much to be turfed at this point. I could see Mo Riles being dealt but I don't think other organizations value him at the same degree as Nonis, yet. If it did happen it would be a major deal like Rielly/Myers or something like that.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I would venture it's any of Lupul, Kadri, and Franson

Gardiner has stepped up his play way too much to be turfed at this point. I could see Mo Riles being dealt but I don't think other organizations value him at the same degree as Nonis, yet. If it did happen it would be a major deal like Rielly/Myers or something like that.

I don't think it's Morgan. Loiselle, Poulin and Nonis have flat out said they want the core to develop together. I don't think they'll split it.

And I agree - Lupul, gone. Franson, gone, and truthfully if you had a gun to my head and i had to CHOOSE? I'd save Morgan over Nazem. I'd also choose Jake over Nazem - again that's if I had to choose. I'd rather have an amazing backend, and work on getting the centres back eventually.

I'd also try to make a move to get myers and try to chara him up.

 

[blueberrie]

Enough of this rebuild stuff people. We kind of already did a rebuild through trades. We have a enough players on this team who are top 15 picks. Just because we didn't draft the personally doesn't mean we didn't rebuild. What if we tanked and drafted JVR 2nd overall is there a difference that we acquired him through trade. Kadri was 7th overall, Phaneuf 9th overall, Bernier 11th overall, Kessel 5th overall, Rielly 5th overall, Gardiner 15th overall and I'm sure Lupul was good pick too. On top of that these players were already NHL ready when we got them.

That's exactly the problem. They "kind of" half assed a rebuild and arrogantly thought they could take whatever scoring wingers were on the market at the time, throw them on a team and instantly vault to contention.

Kessel was drafted as a C, if he had developed into a two-way force who could matchup against the leagues best would Boston have traded him? Why has Lupul bounced from team to team to team never seeming to find a place for his super flashy offensive talent?

Our captain and #1 D was had for scraps in a deal that shocked many around the league. Why was Calgary so willing to give up on such a stud D for so little? Rumours of personality clashes, "cancer" in the locker room and a massive contract.

Either we're deluded ourselves into thinking that all those other GM's are idiots and gave away these seemingly irreplaceable players for little prices or that more likely they're damaged goods with big flaws in their games.

That's not to say you can't acquire good pieces through trades and FA but those always seem to be secondary pieces that push a team over the edge. The Leafs leadership core is almost entirely composed of other team's outcasts and unwanted.

The type of players the Leafs need Kopitar, Toews, Bergeron or a Pietrangelo, Doughty, Keith. None of those players are available for trade, and will likely finish their careers with their teams, or move on when they're past their prime. It's clear since the cap era started that good teams draft their core, then keep them and fill in the rest with trades.

 

[BertCorbeau]

It wasn't so long ago that people wanted Gards shipped out .. As with Kadri, they've both shown the ability to dominate game at the NHL level - the issue is consistency with them, which is the biggest issue with young players ... Unfortunately playing the kids means having to live with the growing pains, personally I'm willing to hold on to both while they learn the game at the NHL level


Lupul would likely be the core piece to get moved IMO (much to my girlfriend's dismay) - I wish it would be Clarkson, but I don't think he'll be moved after 1 year of poor play

Replace Lupes with someone like Ladd or Callahan and I think that second line becomes a lot better on a game to game basis

 

[Daisy Jane]

It wasn't so long ago that people wanted Gards shipped out .. As with Kadri, they've both shown the ability to dominate game at the NHL level - the issue is consistency with them, which is the biggest issue with young players ... Unfortunately playing the kids means having to live with the growing pains, personally I'm willing to hold on to both while they learn the game at the NHL level


Lupul would likely be the core piece to get moved IMO (much to my girlfriend's dismay) - I wish it would be Clarkson, but I don't think he'll be moved after 1 year of poor play

Replace Lupes with someone like Ladd or Callahan and I think that second line becomes a lot better on a game to game basis

that's why i said if I had to have a gun to my head and had to choose. Which is why I think Nonis doesn't move them unless a big deal comes up that brings in equal youth. Which is why I think it will take a while longer because Nonis moves slow and won't let himself get ripped off.

that's what makes this summer so interesting. they have to be aggressive regarding the team defensive side of the puck, so I know they'll strip payroll around draft time, [let some assets walk] and try again.

 

[Al14]

Because it's a rant thread I reserve the right to make no sense.

The best run we had was just before the Olympics and the common thread through that run -- strong starts in the first 10 mins of every game. Meanwhile, every game since the break has been just the opposite.

Since Bernier's injury Reimer's been inadequate - obviously he has to take the brunt of the load on this but honestly -- what possible benefit did it serve Carlyle with his "just OK" comments: he does realize he's coaching Toronto, right? Everything is a controversy.

I haven't been happy with Carlyle's system all year. I admire his tenacity for line matchups but how many times in the past 7 games have we seen breakaways or 2-on-1's because of on-the-fly line changes while juggling lines? I know Scotty Bowman used to devote practice time to line-changes, I'm not sure Carlyle has done the same perhaps someone here knows.

And what's with all the pinching lately? If we're down 1-0 in the first we don't need to start pinching right away, there's lots of game to be played, yet 4 out of the last 7 games have us down by 2 goals, largely on this ill-advised play.

Finally, seeing Kadri put in on defensive zone faceoffs, just highlights Carlyle's stubborn adherence to line-matching in a manner that makes no sense. Kadri is statistically among the worst centres on faceoffs; you're literally asking for a fire drill almost every time.

I had hoped this would be a year we wouldn't see the wheels fall off the bus but it's appearing that time is now, at the most critical stage in the season. The players need to execute, but I feel the coaching has been listless and inadequate in making any adjustments. It's like watching a repeat EVERY GAME. How about keeping it simple: play for a tie; stick to a dump and chase format; change your forecheck; try a left-wing lock --- anything for goodness sake! The status quo is NOT working.

You make no sense! Good job!