What if Curtis Joseph re-signed with Toronto and never signs in Detroit?

[LeafsNation75]

Recently I saw this interview with Curtis Joseph where he says how he regrets leaving the Toronto and signing with Detroit in July 2002.



That got me wondering how would things have turned out for Toronto if that never happened? Obviously the Leafs don't end up signing Ed Belfour, so in the 2003 playoffs do they end up defeating the Flyers and possibly defeat the Senators in the second round?

In the 1999 playoffs the Maple Leafs and Joseph defeated the Flyers in six games so maybe that could have been a factor going into their 2003 series.

Plus at that point in history Joseph was apart of the Maple Leafs teams who eliminated the Senators in 2000, 2001, and 2002.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Maybe a little more money for their 2004 deadline spending spree I guess?

From what Ive heard Belfour slotted right in Josephs place and there was hardly a difference. Personally I like Joseph slightly better as I think he brought a bit more passion and emotion, where Belfour was more stable.

Either way it wont fix the core defensive issues with the team (gee this all sounds so familiar)

 

[Brodeur]

I wish I could remember where I read/heard it, but an unnamed scout said something to the effect that he expected Belfour to age better than CuJo. His observation was that Belfour was the better technical goalie and CuJo was more reliant on his reflexes which were showing signs of decline.

 

[Langdon Alger]

I thought Cujo was starting to decline his last year in Toronto. Not to mention there were rumours of a rift between him and Quinn because of the Olympics. Not sure if there was a problem between them, but the rumours were out there.

I think getting Belfour was better for Toronto than re-signing Joseph. Belfour played amazing against Ottawa in round one in 2004. No guarantee Joseph gets Toronto further than Belfour in 2003 or 2004.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I thought Cujo was starting to decline his last year in Toronto. Not to mention there were rumours of a rift between him and Quinn because of the Olympics. Not sure if there was a problem between them, but the rumours were out there.

I think getting Belfour was better for Toronto than re-signing Joseph. Belfour played amazing against Ottawa in round one in 2004. No guarantee Joseph gets Toronto further than Belfour in 2003 or 2004.

During the 2001-02 season Joseph's record with Toronto was 29-17-5 with a .906 SV%, 2.23 GAA and 4 shutouts. The only reason he played in 51 games was because he hurt his hand in the Maple Leafs first game back after the Olympics and missed 4-6 weeks. So I don't know if he was starting to decline that year.

 

[VanIslander]

It would have made TSN very happy.

 

[Langdon Alger]

During the 2001-02 season Joseph's record with Toronto was 29-17-5 with a .906 SV%, 2.23 GAA and 4 shutouts. The only reason he played in 51 games was because he hurt his hand in the Maple Leafs first game back after the Olympics and missed 4-6 weeks. So I don't know if he was starting to decline that year.

I didn’t think he was great in the playoffs, but he may have been fine in the regular season.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I didn’t think he was great in the playoffs, but he may have been fine in the regular season.

Here was his stats in each series Toronto played in 2002.

Against the Islanders he was 4-3 with a .891 SV%. Although those numbers are skewed by some bad games in Long Island where he allowed 6, 4, and 6 goals. During the games played in Toronto he allowed 1, 0, 3, and 2 goals.

Against the Senators he was 4-3 with a .917 SV%.

Against the Hurricanes he was 2-4 with a .937 SV%.

 

[Langdon Alger]

Here was his stats in each series Toronto played in 2002.

Against the Islanders he was 4-3 with a .891 SV%. Although those numbers are skewed by some bad games in Long Island where he allowed 6, 4, and 6 goals. During the games played in Toronto he allowed 1, 0, 3, and 2 goals.

Against the Senators he was 4-3 with a .917 SV%.

Against the Hurricanes he was 2-4 with a .937 SV%.

His numbers may have been allright, but he just didn’t seem the same to me. Ottawa scored 15 goals on him in the first five games of that series. To be fair, he only allowed one goal in the final five periods of that series, so he came up big when it mattered most. Lalime went the opposite way. Allowing just 8 goals in the first five games, and allowing 7 goals in the final two games.

He just seemed more beatable that year than in years past. I don’t mean to say he wasn’t good. Just not standing on his head like he did in previous years. Some of the games against the Isles he wasn’t very good.

 

[Doctor No]

Once you adjust for the scoring environment, his save percentage (insert standard caveats regarding save percentage) were decently below average (about 0.4 standard deviations below the league).

2001-2002 Toronto Maple Leafs Goaltender Game-by-Game Performance

Definitely pulled down by the couple of stinkers against the Islanders (one aforementioned caveat - save percentage overly reflects poor games compared to good ones).

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Here was his stats in each series Toronto played in 2002.

Against the Islanders he was 4-3 with a .891 SV%. Although those numbers are skewed by some bad games in Long Island where he allowed 6, 4, and 6 goals. During the games played in Toronto he allowed 1, 0, 3, and 2 goals.

Against the Senators he was 4-3 with a .917 SV%.

Against the Hurricanes he was 2-4 with a .937 SV%.

He always struck me as an "in the moment" kind of player. Amped up by the crowd at home, and always seemed to put on his best performances when his team played bad in front of him.

I don't think Cujo staying in Toronto would have really made much of a difference. Those early 2000s Toronto teams were borderline contenders whose one missing piece was not having a true elite #1 defenseman like Blake, Pronger, Lidstrom or Niedermeyer. They needed to get faster and more disciplined, not better goaltending.

 

[danincanada]

His numbers may have been allright, but he just didn’t seem the same to me. Ottawa scored 15 goals on him in the first five games of that series. To be fair, he only allowed one goal in the final five periods of that series, so he came up big when it mattered most. Lalime went the opposite way. Allowing just 8 goals in the first five games, and allowing 7 goals in the final two games.

He just seemed more beatable that year than in years past. I don’t mean to say he wasn’t good. Just not standing on his head like he did in previous years. Some of the games against the Isles he wasn’t very good.

I'm with you here and thought so at the time as well. I watched tons of Leafs games back then and I thought he looked different in '02. Many here in Toronto said he lost his confidence after the Swedes shelled him at the Olympics and Quinn went with Brodeur the rest of the way. He wasn't great against the Isles in the first round and he wasn't terrible in the next two rounds but it wasn't the same Cujo that we saw since he came to Toronto.

I was hoping for the best when the Red Wings signed him but I had major concerns they just signed someone who was on the downside of his career and not what they were expecting. Belfour would have been a much safer signing in hindsight. If Hasek tried to come back into the fold with Belfour already there it would have been even more crazy though. I think one of the reasons why they let Hasek come back at all was becasue they weren't happy with Cujo in Detroit. Once Belfour settled down in Toronto he looked almost like his prime years and maybe he would have been better on a team like Detroit that didn't allow as many scoring chances. Cujo seemed to thrive on lots of shots.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I'm with you here and thought so at the time as well. I watched tons of Leafs games back then and I thought he looked different in '02. Many here in Toronto said he lost his confidence after the Swedes shelled him at the Olympics and Quinn went with Brodeur the rest of the way. He wasn't great against the Isles in the first round and he wasn't terrible in the next two rounds but it wasn't the same Cujo that we saw since he came to Toronto.

I was hoping for the best when the Red Wings signed him but I had major concerns they just signed someone who was on the downside of his career and not what they were expecting. Belfour would have been a much safer signing in hindsight. If Hasek tried to come back into the fold with Belfour already there it would have been even more crazy though. I think one of the reasons why they let Hasek come back at all was becasue they weren't happy with Cujo in Detroit. Once Belfour settled down in Toronto he looked almost like his prime years and maybe he would have been better on a team like Detroit that didn't allow as many scoring chances. Cujo seemed to thrive on lots of shots.

Like I said before in Toronto's first game after the Olympics Joseph broke his hand and missed 4-6 weeks. So wouldn't something like that been more of a factor than what happened with him and Quinn after that game against Sweden?

 

[LeafsNation75]

He always struck me as an "in the moment" kind of player. Amped up by the crowd at home, and always seemed to put on his best performances when his team played bad in front of him.

I don't think Cujo staying in Toronto would have really made much of a difference. Those early 2000s Toronto teams were borderline contenders whose one missing piece was not having a true elite #1 defenseman like Blake, Pronger, Lidstrom or Niedermeyer. They needed to get faster and more disciplined, not better goaltending.

The only difference between Joseph and Belfour for their playoff success in Toronto was this.

With Joseph the Leafs made the Eastern Conference Finals in 1999 and 2002. Plus in 2002 you can say they were unlucky since they lost Games 2, 3, and 6 in overtime, along with the fact Artus Irbe played like he was a multiple time Vezina Trophy winner.

With Belfour the Leafs only made it as far as the Eastern Conference Semi-Finals in 2004, where as in 2003 they lost in the Eastern Conference Quarter-Finals. Plus in 2003 and 2004 when they were eliminated it was against Philadelphia.

 

[Fantomas]

What would happen is that the Leafs would be worse because Joseph was no longer a great, or even good, goalie after his days in Toronto.

Belfour was still excellent for at least two seasons and then fell off after the lockout.

 

[LeafalCrusader]

Cujo was my favourite player back in the day but Belfour was better. Most likely they still lose to Philly and possibly drop the series to the Sens in 04.

What does Detroit do if Cujo re-signs in TO? Do they sign Belfour? Give the starter job to Legace? Bring back Osgood earlier?

 

[LeafsNation75]

Cujo was my favourite player back in the day but Belfour was better. Most likely they still lose to Philly and possibly drop the series to the Sens in 04.

What does Detroit do if Cujo re-signs in TO? Do they sign Belfour? Give the starter job to Legace? Bring back Osgood earlier?

Since Joseph had defeated Ottawa in the 2000, 2001, and 2002 playoffs why would you think they lose to them in 2004, if he re-signs and they don't get Belfour.

 

[LeafalCrusader]

Since Joseph had defeated Ottawa in the 2000, 2001, and 2002 playoffs why would you think they lose to them in 2004, if he re-signs and they don't get Belfour.

The Leafs gave Belfour no goal support before Lalime craped the bed in the first period of game 7. We scored two goals in games 1,2,3,5 and one goal in games 4 and 6. If Cujo is just a little bit worse than Belfour (who was pretty much perfect that series with 3 shutouts) they likely lose.

 

[Stephen]

The Leafs probably would have fared about the same if not a little worse. Belfour was just as good, if not better than Cujo in the 2003 and 2004 seasons so they didn't miss a beat in goal. Would be interesting to see if Joseph could have maintained his 2002 level of play in more comfortable surroundings in Toronto, but isn't a big what if for most Leafs fans other than seeing a hometown hero sour on the franchise rather unexpectedly.

 

[Brodeur]

What does Detroit do if Cujo re-signs in TO? Do they sign Belfour? Give the starter job to Legace? Bring back Osgood earlier?

When I saw the thread title, my first thought about Detroit rather than Toronto. The Islanders had made the playoffs the previous year and would trade Osgood to St. Louis at the 2003 trade deadline. Other ̶2̶0̶0̶3̶ 2002 UFA goalies: Mike Richter, Byron Dafoe, Tom Barrasso, Mike Vernon, Felix Potvin (one site listed him as UFA but it looks like there was a club option which was exercised).

Richter was most likely going back to the Rangers. I had forgotten that Dafoe signed after the 2002-03 season already started.

I'd have to think Belfour would have been their fall back option if CuJo stayed in Toronto. Although I forget if Belfour had any personality conflicts with the Wings (maybe Chelios while in Chicago) that might have prevented Detroit from having interest. Maybe Dafoe on a short deal could have fit too?

 

[Stephen]

When I saw the thread title, my first thought about Detroit rather than Toronto. The Islanders had made the playoffs the previous year and would trade Osgood to St. Louis at the 2003 trade deadline. Other 2003 UFA goalies: Mike Richter, Byron Dafoe, Tom Barrasso, Mike Vernon, Felix Potvin (one site listed him as UFA but it looks like there was a club option which was exercised).

Richter was most likely going back to the Rangers. I had forgotten that Dafoe signed after the 2002-03 season already started.

I'd have to think Belfour would have been their fall back option if CuJo stayed in Toronto. Although I forget if Belfour had any personality conflicts with the Wings (maybe Chelios while in Chicago) that might have prevented Detroit from having interest. Maybe Dafoe on a short deal could have fit too?

Belfour would have made perfect sense in Detroit. Certainly would have met the age requirement to be a Red Wing in 2002, and he had a Chicago teammate in Chris Chelios. In terms of outstanding feuds with Detroit from his Norris Division days? I doubt it would have factored into the decision making process. He was certainty familiar with Steve Yzerman and Brendan Shanahan through the Team Canada program, and if you think about it, the Toronto-Chicago playoff rivalry in the mid 90s (1994 and 1995) was just as much a factor as Chicago-Detroit (1992 and 1995). Plus it would have been cool for Belfour to have taken over from Dominik Hasek, having crossed paths previously when they were both starting out.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I'd have to think Belfour would have been their fall back option if CuJo stayed in Toronto. Although I forget if Belfour had any personality conflicts with the Wings (maybe Chelios while in Chicago) that might have prevented Detroit from having interest. Maybe Dafoe on a short deal could have fit too?

Belfour would have made perfect sense in Detroit. Certainly would have met the age requirement to be a Red Wing in 2002, and he had a Chicago teammate in Chris Chelios. In terms of outstanding feuds with Detroit from his Norris Division days? I doubt it would have factored into the decision making process. He was certainty familiar with Steve Yzerman and Brendan Shanahan through the Team Canada program, and if you think about it, the Toronto-Chicago playoff rivalry in the mid 90s (1994 and 1995) was just as much a factor as Chicago-Detroit (1992 and 1995). Plus it would have been cool for Belfour to have taken over from Dominik Hasek, having crossed paths previously when they were both starting out.

If Joseph had re-signed in Toronto do we eventually see Hasek wanting to come back out of retirement after the 2002-03 season, if the Red Wings had signed Belfour? Although I wonder how much of that was seeing Detroit get swept by Anaheim in the first round of the playoffs, even though it wasn't Joseph's fault.

 

[CharlestownChiefsESC]

Belfour would have made perfect sense in Detroit. Certainly would have met the age requirement to be a Red Wing in 2002, and he had a Chicago teammate in Chris Chelios. In terms of outstanding feuds with Detroit from his Norris Division days? I doubt it would have factored into the decision making process. He was certainty familiar with Steve Yzerman and Brendan Shanahan through the Team Canada program, and if you think about it, the Toronto-Chicago playoff rivalry in the mid 90s (1994 and 1995) was just as much a factor as Chicago-Detroit (1992 and 1995). Plus it would have been cool for Belfour to have taken over from Dominik Hasek, having crossed paths previously when they were both starting out.

Remember he also had Hull there from 99 in Dallas too. Had he signed there I do wonder if the sweep by Anaheim is ever reality. Remember the Wings lost 2 games in ot and blew a lead in 1. If those are reversed Detroit is now up 3-1. However they would draw Vancouver next round who would want revenge. But say they beat the Canucks and Wild and get the Devils , imo Belfour would have been out for blood and wanted revenge for 2000.

 

[Stephen]

Remember he also had Hull there from 99 in Dallas too. Had he signed there I do wonder if the sweep by Anaheim is ever reality. Remember the Wings lost 2 games in ot and blew a lead in 1. If those are reversed Detroit is now up 3-1. However they would draw Vancouver next round who would want revenge. But say they beat the Canucks and Wild and get the Devils , imo Belfour would have been out for blood and wanted revenge for 2000.

Oh that's right, when Detroit started cannibalizing the Dallas Stars championship teams. And then one year later they brought in Derian Hatcher too. Looking back, those late DPE powerhouses are such random assemblages of talent.

 

[LeafsNation75]

The Leafs gave Belfour no goal support before Lalime craped the bed in the first period of game 7. We scored two goals in games 1,2,3,5 and one goal in games 4 and 6. If Cujo is just a little bit worse than Belfour (who was pretty much perfect that series with 3 shutouts) they likely lose.

Who knows what happens in that hypothetical. Maybe we would also have a repeat of their 2001 playoff series when Toronto swept Ottawa when Joseph had shutouts in Game 1 and Game 2.

In Game 3 the Senators did not score their first goal of that series until the 16:51 mark of the 3rd period and scored again at the 19:24 mark to send the game into overtime, which Toronto won and in Game 4 Joseph only allowed 1 goal.

So in total Joseph only allowed 3 goals in four games played.