What happens with Roy and Montreal if December 2nd, 1995 is just a normal game?

[Big Phil]

Let's rewind. It got me thinking ever since I recently saw a picture on this board with Roy playing in Montreal AGAINST the Avs in early 1995-'96. It was the only time in his career he played against the Avs and it looks weird seeing him there. Shortly after that he's traded there and then of course the Cup follows and the second half of his career is written in Colorado.

But what if that blowout game against Detroit never happens on December 2nd? This is what set off the fireworks. Mario Tremblay, probably the worst coach in NHL history, leaves Roy in the net in an eventual 11-1 blowout at the Montreal Forum. Roy allows 9 goals in about 31 minutes before he is pulled. Tremblay just let him rot in there on a night you can tell your goalie is having a bad game.

One interesting thing to note with the boxscore. It wasn't all that bad for Montreal in the first period, most of it. Detroit builds up a 3-1 lead and then with about two minutes to go in the period Patrice Brisebois gets a 5 minute major for hitting from behind. This opens the floodgates. Detroit has a 5 minute power play and scores two late in the first. 5-1 Detroit. Then one early in the 2nd - 6-1 Detroit. Okay, you PULL your goalie. You just do it by then, if not by the end of the 1st. You let him know it isn't his fault and let him re-group. Then three more goals come in the next 10 minutes and it is 9-1. Roy is pulled. We all know the story, he goes to Ronald Corey behind the bench and tells him this is the last time he is playing for Montreal. Tremblay looks confused, and yet still arrogant at the same time. 4 days later he is traded to Colorado.

To this day, I count that as the time when the storied Habs franchise just lost its aura. Three months later the Forum closed and it was just a whole different franchise after that, to this day. There is still the idea that it is a legendary franchise and such, but when you think of 1995 that was a time when this franchise was on the same level historically as the New York Yankees in baseball as far as championships and reverence went. Immediately after 1995 those two franchises took different paths and one of them actually went on to win a lot, to this day.

But what happens if that game never happens? I know things would boil over eventually. Roy hated Tremblay, and Savard and Demers were fired early in the season as GM and Coach. This gave Montreal Tremblay and Rejean Houle as coach and GM and that is just utter ugliness and a recipe for disaster. I understand the Bronx Cheer the fans gave Roy during that game didn't help and maybe they treat him better if they know it is his last game. But what if Brisebois doesn't get that major penalty and the Habs lose, say 4-2? No big deal right? I am going to guess that tensions still boil over eventually as the Habs had missed the playoffs the previous year. But I think things last until the end of the season. He is there for the closing of the Forum, also the playoffs, and he gives Montreal a much better chance to beat the Rangers in the 1st round. I think eventually he gets traded but to where? Probably not Colorado like that in the heat of the moment, and then all of the sudden the best rivalry with the Red Wings in recent memory never happens.

Or does Roy get Tremblay fired and stay with Montreal? Who knows. What are your thoughts about what happens if December 2nd is just a regular game?

 

[CupInSIX]

Serge Savard almost traded him for Brett Hull just before this.

 

[Big Phil]

One thing I always found intriguing and you can tell Patrick had basically had enough and almost didn't care by this point was the reaction to the "Bronx Cheer" from the fans. It is 7-1 and Fedorov lets a long slapper go that is easily stopped. Roy pushes it to the side and his defenseman gets it but Fedorov is in hot pursuit and to tell you the truth he almost picks his pocket right at the side of the net with Roy not paying attention and more or less mocking the crowd. The video clip is at 1:00 here.

 

[Big Phil]

Serge Savard almost traded him for Brett Hull just before this.

Really? That I didn't know about. I wonder if Roy knew about this "almost" trade. That would be weird though, do Hull AND Fuhr come to Montreal? Because Fuhr was in the middle of a 79-game season for the Blues. That wouldn't have been half bad. At least the Habs have good goaltending for a few years after this.

 

[c9777666]

I count that as the time when the storied Habs franchise just lost its aura. Three months later the Forum closed and it was just a whole different franchise after that, to this day. There is still the idea that it is a legendary franchise and such, but when you think of 1995 that was a time when this franchise was on the same level historically as the New York Yankees in baseball as far as championships and reverence went. Immediately after 1995 those two franchises took different paths and one of them actually went on to win a lot, to this day.

This is my personal opinion, but I thought the Habs aura waned a little bit when they had the early playoff exits of the 80s (until 1986) or perhaps when they missed the playoffs in 1995.

How much do you think the Habs were able to stay on that level even when they had a 15 year stretch of 2 Cups when they squandered some fine seasons and even Boston turned the tables on them from 1988-19940?

 

[Big Phil]

This is my personal opinion, but I thought the Habs aura waned a little bit when they had the early playoff exits of the 80s (until 1986) or perhaps when they missed the playoffs in 1995.

How much do you think the Habs were able to stay on that level even when they had a 15 year stretch of 2 Cups when they squandered some fine seasons and even Boston turned the tables on them from 1988-19940?

True enough, it waned a bit in the 1980s to the point where they weren't the favourites year in and year out anymore but they were always top 5ish. In 1982 if you watch the deciding game between the Penguins and Islanders where the Islanders mount that comeback you'll hear the crowd react to an announcement that the Habs were bounced out of the playoffs by Quebec. Imagine this, the fans of a franchise who won two Cups in a row cheered wildly when the mighty Habs were eliminated. That tells you the impact they had.

I think the Cups in 1986 and 1993 sort of gave you that impression that the Habs were never out of it. They had Roy, they played in the Forum still and there was still this mystique about them. Even from 1993 to 1998 they never lost a playoff overtime game (1993 they lost to Quebec and then 1998 to Buffal0 eventually). I think losing Roy made them lose their last superstar until they got Price. It was just so weird to see Montreal be dysfunctional back then. I'm a Leaf fan, so when you endure Harold Ballard you pretty much envy every way the Habs ran things. So when they looked like a deer in headlights I will admit I was stunned. But they've been that way since.

 

[Normand Lacombe]

I know Tremblay and Roy were roommates during training camp in Roy’s rookie year. Was there an incident that sparked their feud?

Had the Detroit game never occurred, Roy would have been dealt by the deadline. It was inevitable that there was going to be a blowup between Roy and Tremblay. Before that season, Savard had the parameters of a Roy deal with Colorado in place. The day Savard and Demers were fired, Av’s GM Pierre Lacroix was trying to call Savard to finalize the Roy trade.

 

[ahmedou]

It was inevitable our raid into hell... We digged our own grave... Whatever it was a normal game or not. It was only the straw that broke the camel's back...

 

[MadLuke]

So when they looked like a deer in headlights I will admit I was stunned. But they've been that way since.

And it was going so bad in so many way's, draft, trades, coaches choice, top talent, leadership:

1999-00	Saku Koivu	25	24	3	18	21	7	14
1998-99	Vincent Damphousse	31	65	12	24	36	-7	46
1997-98	Vincent Damphousse	30	76	18	41	59	14	58
1996-97	Vincent Damphousse	29	82	27	54	81	-6	82
1996-97	Pierre Turgeon	27	9	1	10	11	4	2
1995-96	Mike Keane	28	18	0	7	7	-6	6
1995-96	Pierre Turgeon	26	80	38	58	96	19	44
1994-95	Mike Keane	27	48	10	10	20	5	15
1994-95	Kirk Muller	28	33	8	11	19	-21	33
1993-94	Guy Carbonneau*	33	79	14	24	38	16	48

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Being named captain meaning you were expected to get trade became a bit of a joke, then Koivu got the C for a very long time but was missing so much time that you still had a musical chair about it going on. That 6 different captain in 7 season's, before 94-95 the Habs 7 Captains in 33 season's, every Canadian captain since Toe Blake in 1940 got into the Hall of Fame before Kirk Muller, none since.

 

[Big Phil]

And it was going so bad in so many way's, draft, trades, coaches choice, top talent, leadership:

1999-00	Saku Koivu	25	24	3	18	21	7	14
1998-99	Vincent Damphousse	31	65	12	24	36	-7	46
1997-98	Vincent Damphousse	30	76	18	41	59	14	58
1996-97	Vincent Damphousse	29	82	27	54	81	-6	82
1996-97	Pierre Turgeon	27	9	1	10	11	4	2
1995-96	Mike Keane	28	18	0	7	7	-6	6
1995-96	Pierre Turgeon	26	80	38	58	96	19	44
1994-95	Mike Keane	27	48	10	10	20	5	15
1994-95	Kirk Muller	28	33	8	11	19	-21	33
1993-94	Guy Carbonneau*	33	79	14	24	38	16	48

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Being named captain meaning you were expected to get trade became a bit of a joke, then Koivu got the C for a very long time but was missing so much time that you still had a musical chair about it going on. That 6 different captain in 7 season's, before 94-95 the Habs 7 Captains in 33 season's, every Canadian captain since Toe Blake in 1940 got into the Hall of Fame before Kirk Muller, none since.

And while I loved and respected Saku Koivu, I mean you got to give the guy props just for the cancer survival alone, he was the face of the franchise for a long, long time and that was just...............mediocre I guess you could say. It was weird at that time when Montreal didn't have any stars on their team. That just never happened before.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I don’t think there’s a scenario by which Pierre Lacroix does not get Patrick Roy from Montreal in 1995-96 (having orchestrated the trade both with Savard and Houle), but hypothetically had Roy been able to stay in Montreal long enough to surpass Jacques Plante’s record for Wins, maybe he mellows out a little bit.

From Terry Frei:

Right after the deal, Keane told me something that stuck with me. “He’s hungry to prove a lot of people wrong,” Keane said of Roy. “When Patrick says he’s hungry, you know he’s going to play up to another level and that could be scary.”


There’s a good chance that if nothing sets him off in 1995-96 the way it did, and if Lacroix doesn’t manage to get him that year, he probably just goes about his business, helps Montreal challenge for a division title, and maybe at some point one of the Hart nominees out East (Lemieux, Lindros, Messier) helps their team get the best of Montreal.

Or, because he’s Patrick Roy, basically hockey’s equivalent of The Incredible Hulk just waiting for an opportunity for someone to make him angry so he can evolve into a playoff beast who smashes tanks and military helicopters and can only be soothed by winning a Stanley Cup, maybe he’s still totally on-edge after December 2nd and something different sets him off. Something like the mid-April 1996 announcement of the World Cup roster.

 

[bobholly39]

It's hard to say. Clearly there had to have been some bad blood between Roy and Tremblay heading into that game already, or it wouldn't have boiled over so badly.

Maybe if Montreal wins that game 3-1 he stays in Montreal all year and goes on to stay with Habs for a mediocre few years. Or maybe - he helps them steal another cup, or have success at least, in years to come. Or maybe - a trade was inevitable and happens anyways.

The post above mine makes sense too - Lacroix seemed adamant in getting Roy. If that was the case, maybe it happens anyways, the only difference being that the return for Roy could have been much higher for Montreal if Col had been the one come asking to pry him out of montreal, rather then the way it happened.

 

[Number8]

Serge Savard almost traded him for Brett Hull just before this.

Wow! Not pulling the trigger on that deal and Tremblay leaving him to rot in that game was a tough one two punch. Avs deal wasn’t exactly Brett Hull return. Hull scored something like 250 goals over the next 9 seasons after Roy was shipped to COL.

 

[CupInSIX]

Wow! Not pulling the trigger on that deal and Tremblay leaving him to rot in that game was a tough one two punch. Avs deal wasn’t exactly Brett Hull return. Hull scored something like 250 goals over the next 9 seasons after Roy was shipped to COL.

Yup. The 2 names I remember hearing were Hull and Nolan. I think the Nolan + Fiset offer was confirmed.

It would be pretty ironic if Corey shut down those deals only to have Patrick walk up to him mid-game and demand a trade (the trade rumors were probably a factor in his frustration).

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

The post above mine makes sense too - Lacroix seemed adamant in getting Roy. If that was the case, maybe it happens anyways, the only difference being that the return for Roy could have been much higher for Montreal if Col had been the one come asking to pry him out of montreal, rather then the way it happened.

i wonder how high lacroix would have gone. i think he knew that roy was the most important possible piece he could acquire.

considering how he overpaid for both clark and ozolinsh, would he have given up forsberg if houle had insisted on it? like, if houle had said, “ok pierre, it’s roy for forsberg or i’m turning around and taking detroit’s lapointe, primeau, and osgood offer,” would lacroix go for it?

and how would that

deadmarsh sakic young
kamensky ricci lemieux
rucinsky ? kovalenko
simon yelle/murray keane

team do?

could they have flipped thibault to someone else for a center?

 

[quoipourquoi]

i wonder how high lacroix would have gone. i think he knew that roy was the most important possible piece he could acquire.

considering how he overpaid for both clark and ozolinsh, would he have given up forsberg if houle had insisted on it? like, if houle had said, “ok pierre, it’s roy for forsberg or i’m turning around and taking detroit’s lapointe, primeau, and osgood offer,” would lacroix go for it?

and how would that

deadmarsh sakic young
kamensky ricci lemieux
rucinsky ? kovalenko
simon yelle/murray keane

team do?

could they have flipped thibault to someone else for a center?

With how Forsberg ended the 1995 season and began the 1996 season (53 points in his first 29 games), I don’t think Lacroix makes that trade. That’s gambling your team’s best player on Patrick Roy’s thirties when basically Tony Esposito was the only example of a post-expansion goaltender to have that type of longevity. It would require a lot of foresight to know Patrick Roy would essentially have a second HOF career from 1995 onward, whereas Forsberg was too sure of a thing.

 

[Voight]

He still gets traded, Clearly he was done w/ the Habs and their window was shutting.

Say the Avs never trade for them, I wonder if they make a move for Belfour.

 

[bobholly39]

He still gets traded, Clearly he was done w/ the Habs and their window was shutting.

Say the Avs never trade for them, I wonder if they make a move for Belfour.

I dunno maybe they go for Belfour - wouldn't have been the same though.

This may be the best trade in NHL history for me. Not so much in terms of lopsided value, or trying to imply Roy is more valuable than even when #99 was traded - but it was such a perfect fit and Roy ended up being exactly what Colorado needed to both win their first cup, get properly established in the new market, and go on to form a "mini-dinasty" as one of the top teams over the next 7-8 years. Rarely has a trade worked out so well for a team.

 

[mrhockey193195]

Roy alone could have maintained Montreal's respectability and at least gotten them to the playoffs every year in the late 90s and early 2000s, but I don't think Roy alone gives Montreal a chance to be a cup contender. As Phil mentioned, those teams were just...mediocre. I'm not sure what happens with the leadership and management if that Detroit game never happens, but I think it was clear that a choice needed to be made between Roy & Tremblay at some point.

The other what-ifs, in addition to Roy, make it more interesting to me. Obviously, the Chelios-Savard trade is #1 in my books, but even trading Turgeon (and Conroy) for Corson has to be up there. If they go into the late 90s with center depth of Turgeon, Koivu, and Conroy, and they still have Damphousse and Recchi on the wings, and Roy in net - I think that team can win a few playoffs rounds (despite their porous defense). They also had some youth on offense that was promising - Bure & Savage in particular.

Also - if Roy isn't traded, then Keane is still in Montreal.

 

[yukoner88]

What if Roy doesnt meet up with Mike Vernon (who floated the idea to Roy about demanding a trade) for lunch the day before that game. Roy was already very frustrated and voiced his displeasures to Vernon and Vernon told Roy how much things improved for him after leaving Calgary in 94.

 

[ForsbergForever]

The other what-ifs, in addition to Roy, make it more interesting to me. Obviously, the Chelios-Savard tratradedde is #1 in my books, but even trading Turgeon (and Conroy) for Corson has to be up there. If they go into the late 90s with center depth of Turgeon, Koivu, and Conroy, and they still have Damphousse and Recchi on the wings, and Roy in net - I think that team can win a few playoffs rounds (despite their porous defense). They also had some youth on offense that was promising - Bure & Savage in particular.

Also - if Roy isn't traded, then Keane is still in Montreal.

The thing is Montreal needlessly traded away sooo many quality defensemen in the early to mid 90s. They had Chelios, Schneider, Desjardins, Svoboda, Lumme, Odelein, and then a few years later add Markov, Robidas, Beauchemin, Streit...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

^ our hypothetical 1996 habs, if money were no object—

leclair turgeon lemieux
damphousse koivu keane
brunet carbonneau stevenson
brashear/savage bureau bure

chelios malakhov
lefebvre desjardins
odelein diduck

roy

spares: lumme, breezy, daigneault

on the farm: tucker, conroy, petrov, rivet (with theodore and vokoun a year away)

 

[The Macho King]

What if Roy doesnt meet up with Mike Vernon (who floated the idea to Roy about demanding a trade) for lunch the day before that game. Roy was already very frustrated and voiced his displeasures to Vernon and Vernon told Roy how much things improved for him after leaving Calgary in 94.

Oh Vernon - hoisted on your own petard.

 

[FerrisRox]

Really? That I didn't know about. I wonder if Roy knew about this "almost" trade. That would be weird though, do Hull AND Fuhr come to Montreal? Because Fuhr was in the middle of a 79-game season for the Blues. That wouldn't have been half bad. At least the Habs have good goaltending for a few years after this.

I have never heard Hull mentioned in a trade to Montreal.

Serge Savard has said that just prior to the 1995-96 season, shortly before training camp he had discussions with Colorado for a completely different (and I think, better) trade that would have sent Owen Nolan, Rene Corbet and Stephane Fiset to the Canadiens for Patrick Roy and David Wilkie.

Lacroix and Savard had hammered out the details and Savard asked Lacroix if he could "sleep" on it. In the morning Savard decided that he would be "hated" in Montreal for making the trade and informed Lacroix it wasn't going to happen. Lacroix asked if he things could change once the season got underway and Savard said he didn't see a scenario where he could trade Patrick Roy and keep his job. He must have been aware he was on thin and was perhaps having a conversation about trading Roy out of desperation.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Roy alone could have maintained Montreal's respectability and at least gotten them to the playoffs every year in the late 90s and early 2000s, but I don't think Roy alone gives Montreal a chance to be a cup contender.

Consider the teams that rode hot goaltending to a Stanley Cup Finals appearance from 1996-2003: the 1996 Florida Panthers, the 1998 Washington Capitals, the 1999 Buffalo Sabres, the 2002 Carolina Hurricanes, the 2003 Mighty Ducks of Anaheim.

Mostly Eastern Conference teams. Even if in Montreal he doesn’t perfectly match his actual level of play from the 1996, 1997, 2000, and 2001 playoffs, there’s probably enough kicks at the can for some deep runs.