Speculation: What does Kyle Dubas do with less than 7 million dollars?

[ShaneFalco]

I wish Dubas didn't dial up the rhetoric like that, should be more about constant evaluation and building the best program possible with resources at hand, and keep the messaging generic. The Leafs success isn't about your career or any individual player or group of players. He doesn't get it.

It should really be a fireable offence. This is my plan, this is my core, and I'm sticking to it, regardless of the results. And then add in "they care deeply". But we have Shanny, also with no NHL success whatsoever at the helm, supporting this rookie GM and his buddy coach

 

[Ianturnedbull]

WHY DO YOU PEOPLE KEEP TRYING TO MOVE NYLANDER?

Seriously... what?

For a great return, for balance, to bolster the roster in places that the Leafs lack, and for a player who doesn't need to be reminded to play harder/better.

 

[TorMapleJays]

Actually, it isn't easy to accumulates points in the regulary season 'cause there are only so many points to go around and therefore you have to take those points from another NHL team. It only seems easy when you have a good team. Ask bad teams how easy it is.

The loser point was the reason Florida finished first.

The regular season is easy.

The first round is on expert level

The second round is just a old wives tail. I have seen no proof it even exists.

 

[TorMapleJays]

For a great return, for balance, to bolster the roster in places that the Leafs lack, and for a player who doesn't need to be reminded to play harder/better.

Kadri 2.0

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Kadri 2.0

Nylander is not like Kadri

 

[Nylanderthal]

For what Holl and Kerfoot bring + their cap hit , you cant replace that at a better cap hit. Holl is liked by the coach and Kerfoot is a Swiss Army knife.

If the belief that Kerfoot is on the trade block, add his production to the list of support players that will not be back, Mikheyev (20 goals) , Kase (14 goals), Engvall (15 goals), Spezza (12 goals), Kerfoot (13 goals) .. that's 73 goals you need to replace with not alot of cap space , plus add a starter goalie... tough task.

I moved Simmonds, Kerfoot, Holl to the minors (fastest way to simulate the cap) there is some recapture on the cap when you move certain players to the minors, lets say the recapture its 2 mil. Lets say that the starting point is Bunting, Matthews, Marner, Tavares, Nylander, Kampf, Rielly, Brodie, Muz, Lilly, Gio, Kallgren, this would be approx 68 mil in cap space, you need to sign a 2nd line LW, a 3rd line Lw and a 3rd line RW, an entire 4th line, +Sandin and a starting goalie for $14.5 mil.

I'm not saying I know more than you because I don't, i feel it's tough to trade a 2nd pairing dman who makes 2 mil and a tweener forward who can play on any line , any position when asked. I would not be surprised to see all 3 gone but when I step back and look at those 3, Holl and Kerfoot are good value for the cap. With that said next season, Kerfoot is owed 2.7 mil in salary with a 3.5 mil cap hit, 1.95mil is a signing bonus which I think is paid July 1st and 750k in actual salary, Those players are attractive to poor teams like Arizona and Ottawa. Of the 3 I think Holl is the most likely to stay.

Problem is you have rielly Brodie muzzin Gio and the two Swedish kids. All 5 will play next year, Then you want a different look with the last guy, someone like lyubushkin who provides something different to the team. Maybe not boosh but someone more physical than Holl.
I think Holl’s a goner as they need to clear playing time and recoup some spent draft capital.
Kerfoot is a guy I’ve been a defender of since he got here and finally he seems to have carved out a role and identity on the club, unfortunately he’s heading into his FA year and I’m not sure he’s a guy you can keep long term. Also, With how these playoffs unfolded we saw two teams in the finals who have elite elite top end talent like the leafs, just complimented very differently. Freeing up Kerfs cap space allows the team to bring in a different kind of player with that money. The leafs need to get bigger and more north/south in the bottom/middle 6.
I feel the prudent thing to do is to move those two and redirect their money into a different look for their roster spots via FA.

 

[Nineteen67]

Last Summer

With $7 mil cap space last year Dubas signed Mrazek 3 years at $3.8 mil & Nick Ritchie 2 years at $2.5 mil & Ondrej Kase for 1 year @ $1.25 mil = $7.55 mil

He also let Zach Hyman walk as UFA, but used his $2.5 mil on David Kämpf's @ $1.5 mil & Michael Bunting @ $950k instead.

This Summer.

So this year its looking like Leafs are going to let Jack Campbell and Ilya Mikheyev walk as UFAs , and after re-signing Giordano and Liljegren they have a little less that $7 mil to spend on new replacements, however that number will be reduced further, by sending qualifying offers and re-signing RFA Sandin ($1 mil) , Kase ($1.25), and Engvall ($1.25 mil), cutting that amount in half at minumum.

Why would they sign Kase?

 

[All Mod Cons]

So let me try to recap.

You think the regular season is the best benchmark for team quality and future predictor of team success, so the Stanley Cup and winning rounds isn't that important.

You cited that there actually is a trophy for regular season success, because it's a big accomplishment.

You think winning the Presidents Trophy isn't relevant when talking about regular season success, because we didn't win it.

In summary, being the best team in the playoffs or regular season, as confirmed by a trophy, is not relevant when determining team quality. Sounds like you've attained hockey nirvana state.

It's a riddle wrapped inside a puzzle wrapped inside a conundrum.

 

[Mess]

It is time to put some youth, whether through the draft, free agents juniors signed after draft day, college free agent signings, acquired via trades ... in the line-up with ELC type deals.

If there is nothing in the system you can do that with that is a failure.

The coach does have to have the gonads to play them though!

...

34 picks between 2017-2018, so 8.25 per year.

2017 -Liljegren
2018 - Durzi (LA), Sandin
2019 - Abruzzese, Robertson
2020 -

The 3 picks they had last year aren't relevant to this year, however they might hit 2 out of the 3 there.

2017 -Don't see anything else coming from the 7 picks in 2017.
2018 - Holmberg this year?
2019 - Abruzzese and Robertson ... some hope?

2016 out of scope, but it looks decent.

Sadly, I don't believe you and I and "Play the Kids", aligns with what Leafs management is actually doing by their actions.

If you're dealing away picks and prospects for ready made aging vets and your putting Sandin and Liljegren in the pressbox in the playoffs to play a journeyman Dman like Holl, then its really not about building from within.

If you acquire a 38 year old Dman like Giordano for a 2022 2nd round pick & 2023 2nd round pick and 2024 3rd round pick and then re-sign him to play at age 39 and 40 (as one of the oldest players in the league) at the expense of the entry draft, its kind of the exact opposite of mortgaging the future, as opposed to drafting and developing well to build for the future. Leafs will still be dealing out drafts beyond retirement of the player you traded for and are playing in place of the kids.

You mentioned Sean Durzi above as a former Leafs 2nd round pick, but Leafs packaged Sean Durzi (2017 2nd round #52) & Carl Grundstrom (2016 2nd round #57) and Leafs 2019 first round pick (#22-Tobias Bjornfot) to LA for Jake Muzzin.. All 3 of those former Leafs picks including young Dman Bjornfort whom LA selected with Leafs 1st all played for the Kings last year on their playoff team. While Jake and his concussions if often injured and may be nearing the end due to injury history.

Leafs signed John Tavares and as a result Leafs dealt Patrick Marleau • first round pick in 2020 (#13-Seth Jarvis) to Carolina to free up cap space. to re-sign their own players, but Jarvis (68 games 17- 23- 40 points & playoffs 14 games 3-5-8 points) is already a contributing player for the Canes who won the Metro DIv.

After dealing their 2nd in this draft for Gio they still already traded away their 3rd (Dave Rittich), 4th (Nick Folgino), 5th (Ben Hutton) and 6th (Reilly Nash) and paying off their debts for losing to Montreal in 2020.

Jarvis, Durzi, Grundstrom and Bjornfort could all be playing for the Leafs right now if "playing the kids" was the objective

It seems like other teams are benefiting from "Playing the Kids" at Leafs expense for prospects and picks so Leafs can "Play the Vets" ..

 

[Mess]

Why would they sign Kase?

Unsigned RFAs​

RFA	Qualifying Offer
Pierre Engvall	1,250,000
Ondřej Kaše	1,250,000
Rasmus Sandin	874,125

The Maple Leafs have until July 11 to issue Qualifying Offers to their RFAs or re-sign them. We will know soon if the Leafs plan on retaining the rights of their RFAs or walk away.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So let me try to recap.
You think the regular season is the best benchmark for team quality and future predictor of team success, so the Stanley Cup and winning rounds isn't that important.
You cited that there actually is a trophy for regular season success, because it's a big accomplishment.
You think winning the Presidents Trophy isn't relevant when talking about regular season success, because we didn't win it.
In summary, being the best team in the playoffs or regular season, as confirmed by a trophy, is not relevant when determining team quality.

Now let's recap what actually happened...

In a discussion about team quality - stemming from a discussion regarding Toronto and the New York Rangers, I noted how the regular season is a much better representation of team quality than the playoffs. This is undeniable. Results from an 82-game sample and 6+ month time period against shared teams will obviously be more representative than results from a 4-7 game sample and 2-week time period against a singular opponent. I think we can all agree that Montreal was not the 2nd best team in the league in 2021.

Winning the Stanley Cup is obviously important. That is the ultimate goal. But that doesn't automatically make what round you got to the best representation of team quality. Even if we are to include the playoffs in our evaluation, there's a lot more that's relevant than just what round you got to.

Then you came in making dinner analogies and talking about trophies for some reason. While the President's trophy is an accomplishment, it was only noted because you suggested there was no regular season trophy. The President's trophy is relevant to regular season success in the sense that it goes to the team with the most points, but the discussion was about the team quality of Toronto, and to a lesser extent, New York, and the President's trophy wasn't relevant to them.

Your summary is an incredibly skewed interpretation of what's been said.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Nylander is not like Kadri

Yeah, Nylander's much better and more important.

 

[zeke]

Unsigned RFAs​

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]RFA[/TH]
[TH]Qualifying Offer[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pierre Engvall[/TD]
[TD]1,250,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ondřej Kaše[/TD]
[TD]1,250,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rasmus Sandin[/TD]
[TD]874,125[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

The Maple Leafs have until July 11 to issue Qualifying Offers to their RFAs or re-sign them. We will know soon if the Leafs plan on retaining the rights of their RFAs or walk away.

Those are easy re-ups for ~$1.5 each imo.

1yr for the vets 2yrs for Ras.

 

[Stephen]

Now let's recap what actually happened...

In a discussion about team quality - stemming from a discussion regarding Toronto and the New York Rangers, I noted how the regular season is a much better representation of team quality than the playoffs. This is undeniable. Results from an 82-game sample and 6+ month time period against shared teams will obviously be more representative than results from a 4-7 game sample and 2-week time period against a singular opponent. I think we can all agree that Montreal was not the 2nd best team in the league in 2021.

Winning the Stanley Cup is obviously important. That is the ultimate goal. But that doesn't automatically make what round you got to the best representation of team quality. Even if we are to include the playoffs in our evaluation, there's a lot more that's relevant than just what round you got to.

Then you came in making dinner analogies and talking about trophies for some reason. While the President's trophy is an accomplishment, it was only noted because you suggested there was no regular season trophy. The President's trophy is relevant to regular season success in the sense that it goes to the team with the most points, but the discussion was about the team quality of Toronto, and to a lesser extent, New York, and the President's trophy wasn't relevant to them.

Your summary is an incredibly skewed interpretation of what's been said.

Constantly diminishing other teams, their accomplishments, regular season and playoffs trophies, and pointing to whatever the Leafs do as "quality" doesn't really seem to be the most rigorous analytical process.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Constantly diminishing other teams, their accomplishments, regular season and playoffs trophies, and pointing to whatever the Leafs do as "quality" doesn't really seem to be the most rigorous analytical process.

Except I haven't done any of that. I've simply noted the basic fact that the regular season is a much better representation of team quality than the playoffs, especially if all you're doing is looking at what round a team got to, because results from an 82-game sample and 6+ month time period against shared teams will obviously be more representative than results from a 4-7 game sample and 2-week time period against a singular different opponent.

 

[Stephen]

Except I haven't done any of that. I've simply noted the basic fact that the regular season is a much better representation of team quality than the playoffs, especially if all you're doing is looking at what round a team got to, because results from an 82-game sample and 6+ month time period against shared teams will obviously be more representative than results from a 4-7 game sample and 2-week time period against a singular opponent.

So, in your mind, would Florida Panthers would be a better team than Toronto?

They won a Presidents Trophy in the regular season (the better representation of team quality), and also won a playoff round. Or are you going to cite the small sample of how they lost to Tampa as a disqualifier? Or perhaps nitpick regulation wins vs OT wins to stack the deck once again?

Let's just win real trophies in real life and cut out all this stuff, eh?

 

[hamzarocks]

Not really.

NHL regular season of today is not the same as the past. It's 32 teams, highly diluted, full parity between the middle class. Slap a couple of superstars on your team like ours and you are guaranteed to make the playoffs.

Our GM hasn't figured this out yet and keeps building for 82 regular season games instead of the real season called the playoffs.

Dubas does try to build for the playoffs, issue is he's either badly misguided on the quality and impact of our captain come the playoffs or he's got to settle and try and work around a 11M center who paces for 57 or so points in the playoffs as a leaf

JT was always going to be overpaid but he's been horrific in the playoffs. We're getting maybe 60% of his 11M value for him in the playoffs when we were expecting 85%.

If dubas could somehow get JT playing to expectations I think the team could win a few rounds at least

Matthews and Nylander look dynamic in the playoffs since 2020 (outside if mtl for 34

Marner had a great showing as well this year

We just need JT to be an elite 1C like he's paid to be I'm the playoffs and we shouldn't be dreading game 7s anymore

 

[hamzarocks]

Well then you're talking about something else entirely, and I'm not sure why you're replying to me. The discussion was about team quality. The regular season is a better representation of team quality than the playoffs - especially if all you're looking at is round number. That's just basic fact. Montreal was not the 2nd best team in the league in 2020-2021.

Florida was not the better team in the playoffs. We did significantly better against the only common team.

Florida making a horrible decision in their coaching hire doesn't change the fact that the regular season is a better representation of team quality.

Yes really.

He's building for both, like any GM. It's called building a good team. It makes you more likely to do better in the regular season, and more likely to go further in the playoffs.

Nope still wrong dekes

Playoffs >> regular season

No team has leafs as a top 5 contender

We're a round 1 bye at the moment. Losing in the 1st round drastically drops your team ranking despite a strong reg season.

The Habs were a better team then TML unfortunately in 2021

The leafs lost head to head. Habs won. The discussion on if they were the 2nd best team or 3rd or 4th etc isn't one the leafs were relevant in. Wherever you ranked toronto, Habs were above that

Yeah, Nylander's much better and more important.

Definitely not better than 2022 Kadri

Well see next year

 

[Dekes For Days]

So, in your mind, would Florida Panthers would be a better team than Toronto?

They're likely going to have a lot more difficulty sustaining their result going forward, and Toronto certainly played better in the playoffs, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that Florida was a better team than Toronto this season.

Let's just win real trophies in real life and cut out all this stuff, eh?

I'd love to win trophies, but whether we do or don't doesn't change anything being discussed.

 

[ITM]

Dubas does try to build for the playoffs, issue is he's either badly misguided on the quality and impact of our captain come the playoffs or he's got to settle and try and work around a 11M center who paces for 57 or so points in the playoffs as a leaf

JT was always going to be overpaid but he's been horrific in the playoffs. We're getting maybe 60% of his 11M value for him in the playoffs when we were expecting 85%.

If dubas could somehow get JT playing to expectations I think the team could win a few rounds at least

Matthews and Nylander look dynamic in the playoffs since 2020 (outside if mtl for 34

Marner had a great showing as well this year

We just need JT to be an elite 1C like he's paid to be I'm the playoffs and we shouldn't be dreading game 7s anymore

But if Matthews scores at a clip close to his regular season output (and certainly in deciding games) all issues, including JT's contract become moot.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Nope still wrong dekes

Nope, still right Ham.

Playoffs >> regular season

For us as fans, sure. For evaluating team quality, no, especially if instead of evaluating anything, you're just looking at what round somebody got to.

No team has leafs as a top 5 contender

Actually, pretty much everybody has the Leafs as a top contender.

The Habs were a better team then TML unfortunately in 2021

Incorrect. I guess the loss wasn't a big deal to you then, since we lost to the better team? Do you believe Montreal was the 2nd best team in the league in 2021?

Definitely not better than 2022 Kadri

Definitely better than Kadri when he was traded, which is what was being discussed.

 

[hamzarocks]

But if Matthews scores at a clip close to his regular season output (and certainly in deciding games) all issues, including JT's contract become moot.

Matthews did his part.

JT needs to be held accountable

We talk about him like he's Nylander. He doesn't make 7M but 11M. He's not still young and can develop as a player but rather a 13 year NHL vet

JT should face the same expectations as 34 and 16

He's been no where near as good as those 2 since coming to Toronto.

If he can't play with Nylander then he better go ppg with kampf and kerfoot.

The dude can't keep getting excuses made for his poor play. Everyday is John Tavares day for this guy in the playoffs. He plays usually poor and people still don't call him out for it ( fans, media, management)

 

[hamzarocks]

Nope, still right Ham.

For us as fans, sure. For evaluating team quality, no, especially if instead of evaluating anything, you're just looking at what round somebody got to.

Actually, pretty much everybody has the Leafs as a top contender.

Incorrect. I guess the loss wasn't a big deal to you then, since we lost to the better team? Do you believe Montreal was the 2nd best team in the league in 2021?

Definitely better than Kadri when he was traded, which is what was being discussed.

We were a worse team then the Habs because we lost.

The results provide who is better and who is not.

You think us coming in the better team in the reg season and losing is a sign of the teams quality? It was a sign that the Leafs once again are a team that can't win in the playoffs.

Regular season accomplishments can't be used as a defense when a team has a established that they don't win in the playoffs

And for your question about Habs as 2nd I think they were 2nd/3rd with the NYI.

Both were 7-10 spots ahead of the leafs

For the nylander-kadri part, missed that it was at the time of the trade. Your right Nylander is definitely much better than Kadri was coming off the 2019 year.

 

[ITM]

Matthews did his part.

JT needs to be held accountable

We talk about him like he's Nylander. He doesn't make 7M but 11M. He's not still young and can develop as a player but rather a 13 year NHL vet

JT should face the same expectations as 34 and 16

He's been no where near as good as those 2 since coming to Toronto.

If he can't play with Nylander then he better go ppg with kampf and kerfoot.

The dude can't keep getting excuses made for his poor play. Everyday is John Tavares day for this guy in the playoffs. He plays usually poor and people still don't call him out for it ( fans, media, management)

Marner's been (rightly) held in suspicion every game post-contract.

Tavares is our poster child for unmet expectations. The constant trade chatter in our fanbase about John Tavares is all the evidence anyone needs to know he's also being held accountable.

In his first season here, he was arguably our best player. He absolutely was as good as a Matthews and Marner. Subsequently, whether fatherhood and/or injury have slowed him down isn't known to a certitude. But in all fairness, he returned to form somewhat in these playoffs. He was our best player in Game 6. A game that was ours and then wasn't for reasons out of our control.

Matthews is supposed to be the x-factor in scoring goals and scoring goals when it counts. Games 6 and 7, we saw more of Tavares than we did Matthews.

Pressure and accountability being what they are, what Matthews is supposed to do, is be the difference in goals and game outcome for our team. I'll take Holl as the difference maker if it came, but Holl wasn't and wasn't expected to be. Matthews is, and how anyone can place the crest first and say sincerely that Matthews has done his part raises questions about what they're watching.

Great regular season. Flashes in the playoffs. Timidity in the most important games.

If he gets over this last hurdle I think the sky's the limit for our club. But Nylander and Tavares and Campbell aren't reasons anyone can turn to and reasonably say, here are options for THE reason we haven't competed in the second round. Matthews and Marner...different story...so far.

 

[tmlms13]

You sound like Raptors fans did after winning 59 games and getting swept by LeBron again. It's not working, you have to do a major shakeup

Find me a player a GM that is willing to trade a underperforming superstar for pennies on the dollar.

If Jack Eichel wasn't just traded to LV getting him would be like the perfect example. You could probably get him for Nylander and some picks. Thats more than what they got from LV.

But those situations and the ability to take advantage are just so rare. A lateral move for the sake of it is pointless. The move has to be one where the potential is a massive upgrade