WCH and FIFA World Cup

[Kshahdoo]

I'm not going to compare these two tournaments, it would be like comparing Sun and Moon. But I want to say, I understand the idea behind WCH - to become what FIFA World Cup is for football, where Olympics don't mean a lot.

There is a nuance though. FIFA World Cup is a trully international event. FIFA owns it, but FIFA is an international federation, and you can't say, that there are countries, organizations or leagues, that rule over it. WCH is an NHL buisiness, and NHL is an NA league above all, so it's kinda estranged to non-NHL public, even in hockey.

FIFA World Cup is the main and most important tournament for every football fan, WCH isn't. And the way NHL is going to promote it, it may never become one. Because money is important, but not for every hockey fan. Especially, NHL money. That's why NHL should be more open and less greedy, if it wants WCH to become the most important hockey event in the world. Otherwise there will always be some tensions around the tournament.

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[Zamuz]

WCH will have a long, long road to achieve the status of Olympics. I don't like how WCH is not consistent, it's held every now and then. For example Olympics and FIFA world cup are every 4 years.
Also WCH doesn't have prestige, and feels like there is nothing to win. FIFA has the cup, and Olympics have Olympic gold. I don't even know what the WCH cup looks like, is there even one?

but yeah, I think NHL should work with Olympics if they really want to have an actual World Cup. I'd rather compare Hockey to Basketball where I believe Olympics are also the most important international competition.

 

[Kshahdoo]

WCH will have a long, long road to achieve the status of Olympics. I don't like how WCH is not consistent, it's held every now and then. For example Olympics and FIFA world cup are every 4 years.
Also WCH doesn't have prestige, and feels like there is nothing to win. FIFA has the cup, and Olympics have Olympic gold. I don't even know what the WCH cup looks like, is there even one?

but yeah, I think NHL should work with Olympics if they really want to have an actual World Cup. I'd rather compare Hockey to Basketball where I believe Olympics are also the most important international competition.

I think, NHL takes a wrong way to get WCH where the league wants it to be. It's going to oppose not IIHF or IOC, it's going to oppose hockey fans, which is plain stupid. I can admit, that hardcore and semi-hardcore hockey fans will love WCH, but casual ones will be indifferent to it at best, because to them Olympics mean so much more.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'm not going to compare these two tournaments, it would be like comparing Sun and Moon. But I want to say, I understand the idea behind WCH - to become what FIFA World Cup is for football, where Olympics don't mean a lot.

There is a nuance though. FIFA World Cup is a trully international event. FIFA owns it, but FIFA is an international federation, and you can't say, that there are countries, organizations or leagues, that rule over it. WCH is an NHL buisiness, and NHL is an NA league above all, so it's kinda estranged to non-NHL public, even in hockey.

FIFA World Cup is the main and most important tournament for every football fan, WCH isn't. And the way NHL is going to promote it, it may never become one. Because money is important, but not for every hockey fan. Especially, NHL money. That's why NHL should be more open and less greedy, if it wants WCH to become the most important hockey event in the world. Otherwise there will always be some tensions around the tournament.

That's a bit presumptuous. At the moment, it's not clear that even the NHL knows what they want the WHC to be.

 

[snipes]

The NHL can do whatever they want. Canadian and American hockey aren't governed by the IIHF.

 

[snipes]

NHL>>>>>>>>>IIHF

At least the players themselves get a 50% profit share.

 

[snipes]

WCH will have a long, long road to achieve the status of Olympics. I don't like how WCH is not consistent, it's held every now and then. For example Olympics and FIFA world cup are every 4 years.
Also WCH doesn't have prestige, and feels like there is nothing to win. FIFA has the cup, and Olympics have Olympic gold. I don't even know what the WCH cup looks like, is there even one?

but yeah, I think NHL should work with Olympics if they really want to have an actual World Cup. I'd rather compare Hockey to Basketball where I believe Olympics are also the most important international competition.

The IOC refused to cover the insurance costs (they have every Olympics since 1998). If the NHL don't participate, blame the IOC and IIHF.

 

[Xokkeu]

I guess you could kind of compare the World Cup of hockey to the early FIFA world cups. They never went full on farcical teams but a lot of teams boycotted FIFA for petty reason before the war.

 

[Kshahdoo]

The IOC refused to cover the insurance costs (they have every Olympics since 1998). If the NHL don't participate, blame the IOC and IIHF.

So IOC doesn't want NHL players at Olympics? Sounds stupid. I bet, it's not that simple.

And 80% of hockey fans in the world are casuals, and they just don't give a damn what reasons will be behind hockey absence in PyeongChang. They will blame NHL, because the league will make the final decision.

 

[snipes]

So IOC doesn't want NHL players at Olympics? Sounds stupid. I bet, it's not that simple.

And 80% of hockey fans in the world are casuals, and they just don't give a damn what reasons will be behind hockey absence in PyeongChang. They will blame NHL, because the league will make the final decision.

They decided to not cover the insurance costs for NHL participation at the 2018 Olympics. The IOC has covered them since 1998 (when NHLers started going).

Look into it yourself. This one is on the IOC and IIHF if the NHL guys don't go.

 

[Booster*]

If NHL is internationally governed i will agree. We wouldn´t want corruption...

No, seriously it´s about national bias that exist in every true hockey persons heart, even if you´re in a ruling or judging position.

World Cup Hockey every second year too is suitable, comparing to FIFA where they have major continental national cups rolling in a 4-year cycle overlapping the World Cup.

 

[Murky]

International tournaments are not about pay check for the players, although lately in many sports they have become about the paycheck for organizations. Sharing profit is completely irrelevant.

International tournaments and especially The World Cup is about the sport and national pride and achievement. Players play hurt and hide injuries etc. because those games are what matters. The paycheck from Barcelona or AS Roma is nice, but that is just a day job.

I understand that it is very hard concept to grasp for many in HF because hockey especially in Canada is about the teams. It can be argued that one or the other way is "better" or even that it doesn't matter which way is better. The reality however is that the views do not mix very well. Another point is that it is easy for a person living in an NHL city to brush the thing aside and look down on the rest of the world. It might not be the wise thing in the long run though. As great as NFL is and as great as Superbowl is World Cup is still in another tier. NFL is the golden standard and NHL might one day reach that status (they won't but that's another topic) whereas hockey people like us, who do not own the teams, should strive for better because of love of the sport.

 

[Xokkeu]

So IOC doesn't want NHL players at Olympics? Sounds stupid. I bet, it's not that simple.

And 80% of hockey fans in the world are casuals, and they just don't give a damn what reasons will be behind hockey absence in PyeongChang. They will blame NHL, because the league will make the final decision.

IOC wants the NHL players there. It is simply not interested in sharing any of the profits or risk with the NHL. For that I can understand why the NHL is very reluctant to shut down and go to Korea. That said, I don't see why everyone craps on the IIHF? It's essentially just a rubber stamp for international tournaments and has little to no leverage.

 

[Murky]

IOC wants the NHL players there. It is simply not interested in sharing any of the profits or risk with the NHL. For that I can understand why the NHL is very reluctant to shut down and go to Korea. That said, I don't see why everyone craps on the IIHF? It's essentially just a rubber stamp for international tournaments and has little to no leverage.

The amount of money in that dispute is marginal. It is not about that. It is about NHL getting a preferential treatment over everyone else. NHL is just using that money issue as an excuse for their PR purposes.

 

[Kshahdoo]

IOC wants the NHL players there. It is simply not interested in sharing any of the profits or risk with the NHL. For that I can understand why the NHL is very reluctant to shut down and go to Korea. That said, I don't see why everyone craps on the IIHF? It's essentially just a rubber stamp for international tournaments and has little to no leverage.

Nah, IIHF has enough leverage, because international tournaments are very important to all countries, but two. And even then WJC is very important to Hockey Canada and Canadian fans. It's just in the case of Olympic tournament IIHF pretends to be a poor relative to big and rich guys.

 

[snipes]

The amount of money in that dispute is marginal. It is not about that. It is about NHL getting a preferential treatment over everyone else. NHL is just using that money issue as an excuse for their PR purposes.

Nah, IIHF has enough leverage, because international tournaments are very important to all countries, but two. And even then WJC is very important to Hockey Canada and Canadian fans. It's just in the case of Olympic tournament IIHF pretends it's a poor relative to big and rich guys.

The issue is insurance on the contracts and travel expenses. The IOC wants the NHL to foot the bill and take the risk. Why should they? The IOC have always covered the expenses.

Think about it, why should the NHL cover all the expenses to go and then risk an injury to one of their players? Makes no sense.

The IOC should stop being greedy and pay the insurance costs, like they have always done! I think a deal will get done eventually. The IOC can't be that stupid.

 

[snipes]

International tournaments are not about pay check for the players, although lately in many sports they have become about the paycheck for organizations. Sharing profit is completely irrelevant.

International tournaments and especially The World Cup is about the sport and national pride and achievement. Players play hurt and hide injuries etc. because those games are what matters. The paycheck from Barcelona or AS Roma is nice, but that is just a day job.

I understand that it is very hard concept to grasp for many in HF because hockey especially in Canada is about the teams. It can be argued that one or the other way is "better" or even that it doesn't matter which way is better. The reality however is that the views do not mix very well. Another point is that it is easy for a person living in an NHL city to brush the thing aside and look down on the rest of the world. It might not be the wise thing in the long run though. As great as NFL is and as great as Superbowl is World Cup is still in another tier. NFL is the golden standard and NHL might one day reach that status (they won't but that's another topic) whereas hockey people like us, who do not own the teams, should strive for better because of love of the sport.

It's not about making money. It's about not taking all the risk. The NHL would be fine to "break even", but you can't expect them to pay all of the costs and take all of the risk.

 

[Section337]

It's not about making money. It's about not taking all the risk. The NHL would be fine to "break even", but you can't expect them to pay all of the costs and take all of the risk.

And not even be able to have a picture of a play from the Olympics on NHL.com.

That said, hockey is in a weird spot as far as international hockey. A tournament with non-national teams put on by a professional league, a yearly world championship that has been held outside of Europe once since '62 and an event where the organizers think everybody else should be happy to be invited (BYOBF).

 

[Murky]

It's not about making money. It's about not taking all the risk. The NHL would be fine to "break even", but you can't expect them to pay all of the costs and take all of the risk.

Why not? Everyone else does.

 

[Xokkeu]

The amount of money in that dispute is marginal. It is not about that. It is about NHL getting a preferential treatment over everyone else. NHL is just using that money issue as an excuse for their PR purposes.

Well it's not marginal. Hockey Canada had to limit their training camp in Sochi because they would have to pay about a $1 million a player for some of the big contracts. Crosby's contract is for over $100 million. These aren't paltry sums. I certainly understand the NHL's position that they are taking all the financial risk and only allowed an abstract reward. Due to the IOC's rights holder's agreements, the NHL can't even show their players playing in the Olympics.

 

[Mattpilf]

I'm not going to compare these two tournaments, it would be like comparing Sun and Moon. But I want to say, I understand the idea behind WCH - to become what FIFA World Cup is for football, where Olympics don't mean a lot.

There is a nuance though. FIFA World Cup is a trully international event. FIFA owns it, but FIFA is an international federation, and you can't say, that there are countries, organizations or leagues, that rule over it. WCH is an NHL buisiness, and NHL is an NA league above all, so it's kinda estranged to non-NHL public, even in hockey.

FIFA World Cup is the main and most important tournament for every football fan, WCH isn't. And the way NHL is going to promote it, it may never become one. Because money is important, but not for every hockey fan. Especially, NHL money. That's why NHL should be more open and less greedy, if it wants WCH to become the most important hockey event in the world. Otherwise there will always be some tensions around the tournament.

The World Cup of hockey is not like the FIFA World Cup. Any comparison is superficial and doesn't respect that the FIFA World Cup was already THE most important championship for soccer before the olympics allowed professionals in the last few decades and even then it's an age restricted team. The WCH is like the Basketball World Cup or much more closely the Canada Cup. They have prestige but they just aren't the top tournament yet.

 

[Xokkeu]

Nah, IIHF has enough leverage, because international tournaments are very important to all countries, but two. And even then WJC is very important to Hockey Canada and Canadian fans. It's just in the case of Olympic tournament IIHF pretends it's a poor relative to big and rich guys.

The IIHF signs off on pretty much everything, but really they don't have any leverage. Lets say they decided to threaten to withhold transfer certificates for players who are kept out of the World Juniors or World Championships. The NHL would simply laugh and continue on. That's why the IIHF signs off on the World Cup with fake teams, it's why USA Hockey and Hockey Canada sign off on fake teams. Because they know the NHL would do it anyway and they might as well benefit from it.

 

[Xokkeu]

The World Cup of hockey is not like the FIFA World Cup. Any comparison is superficial and doesn't respect that the FIFA World Cup was already THE most important championship for soccer before the olympics allowed professionals in the last few decades and even then it's an age restricted team. The WCH is like the Basketball World Cup or much more closely the Canada Cup. They have prestige but they just aren't the top tournament yet.

World Baseball Classic =/= Baseball World Cup. I know that may sound superficial but they are two separate tournaments. The World Cup of Hockey is very much identical to the world Baseball Classic. MLB didn't create fake teams like team Europe and North America U24, but you could argue that they are close because they allow players who aren't citizens to play for teams like Italy and Mexico.

 

[snipes]

The IIHF signs off on pretty much everything, but really they don't have any leverage. Lets say they decided to threaten to withhold transfer certificates for players who are kept out of the World Juniors or World Championships. The NHL would simply laugh and continue on. That's why the IIHF signs off on the World Cup with fake teams, it's why USA Hockey and Hockey Canada sign off on fake teams. Because they know the NHL would do it anyway and they might as well benefit from it.

The IIHF has no power over North American hockey. We have our own ice size and rule book, we would just continue on playing our game.

However, cooperation is better. The IIHF, IOC, and TV networks (my idea, the TV networks could foot some of this bill, they profit from the Olympics) should come together and cover the expenses for the NHL to go.

The NHL players want to go.

 

[Xokkeu]

Why not? Everyone else does.

That's not really a strong argument in the board room of the owners. Realize that this isn't what you and I want. If you were to go argue to a company that they have to put their $100 million asset on the line AND pay $1 million to insure that risk, and you offer only third degree marketing in return...... what company is going to accept that offer?