Wayne Gretzky and Mike Bossy - Time on ice

overpass · Tuesday at 10:33 AM

Wayne Gretzky dominated the scoring race in his prime like no other player. Most hockey fans, who didn't follow the NHL in his prime, can only take his statistical record at face value as a measure of his offensive dominance over the rest of the league.

However, when Gretzky played, there were other players that were sometimes mentioned in the same breath offensively. Mike Bossy was among them. While Gretzky scored more goals in the regular season, Bossy was widely considered the best goal scorer.

Why did Gretzky score more goals than Bossy if Bossy was the better goal scorer? One reason is that Gretzky played much more ice time. Bossy's coach Al Arbour and Gretzky's coach Glen Sather ran their bench in very different ways. Arbour balanced his ice time for his top 3 lines and divided special teams roles to help keep the ice time even. Sather sent Gretzky out as often as possible in all situations, and used his other top forwards very frequently as well.

I've tracked ice time for 3 Gretzky games and 3 Bossy games in an attempt to quantify the difference in ice time.

Games tracked:

Gretzky:
Game 1, 1983 Stanley Cup Finals vs New York Islanders
Islanders win 2-0.

Game 2, 1985 Conference Finals vs Chicago Black Hawks
Oilers win 7-3.

Game 1, 1988 Stanley Cup Finals vs Boston Bruins
Oilers win 2-1

Bossy:
Game 3, 1980 Conference Finals vs Buffalo Sabres
Islanders win 7-4

Game 4, 1981 Stanley Cup Finals vs Minnesota North Stars
North Stars win 4-2

Game 4, 1983 Conference Finals vs Boston Bruins
Islanders win 8-3

Results:

Player	Date	TOI	EVTOI	PPTOI	SHTOI
Wayne Gretzky	1983-05-10	28:45	18:22	8:19	2:04
Wayne Gretzky	1985-05-07	25:51	17:24	5:08	3:19
Wayne Gretzky	1988-05-18	29:01	17:22	5:57	5:42
Wayne Gretzky	Average	27:52	17:43	6:28	3:41

Player	Date	TOI	EVTOI	PPTOI	SHTOI
Mike Bossy	1980-05-03	18:18	12:54	5:24	0:00
Mike Bossy	1981-05-19	17:03	11:02	6:01	0:00
Mike Bossy	1983-05-03	16:10	12:03	4:07	0:00
Mike Bossy	Average	17:10	12:00	5:10	0:00

Bossy averaged 17:10 in the three games I tracked. Gretzky averaged 27:52, or over 10 minutes more than Bossy.

Most of the difference was that Gretzky played almost 1.5 times as much at even strength. Gretzky also played almost 4 minutes per game on the penalty kill, and Bossy didn't kill penalties at all. Finally, Gretzky also played over a minute more per game on the power play.

Here are the TOI numbers as a percentage of the team's ice time in those situations.

Player	Date	EV%	PP%	SH%
Wayne Gretzky	1983-05-10	40%	82%	50%
Wayne Gretzky	1985-05-07	36%	77%	67%
Wayne Gretzky	1988-05-18	40%	100%	51%
Wayne Gretzky	Average	39%	86%	56%

Player	Date	EV%	PP%	SH%
Mike Bossy	1980-05-03	28%	67%	0%
Mike Bossy	1981-05-19	30%	66%	0%
Mike Bossy	1983-05-03	28%	59%	0%
Mike Bossy	Average	29%	64%	0%

Bossy played about 30% of his team's EV ice time, and Gretzky played about 40% of his team's EV ice time. On the power play, Bossy played about 2/3 of the ice time, and Gretzky played about 85% of the ice time.

What does this mean for Bossy and Gretzky as offensive players? Let's look at Gretzky's four season goal scoring peak (81-82 to 84-85) in the regular season, and compare it to Bossy's four dynasty seasons from 79-80 to 82-83.

At even strength, Gretzky outpointed Bossy by 79%, and scored 38% more goals.

Player	Start	End	GP	EVG	EVP
Mike Bossy	79-80	82-83	313	162	312
Wayne Gretzky	81-82	84-85	314	224	560

But if Bossy played 12.5 EVTOI per game, and Gretzky 17 EVTOI per game, then at EV they were virtually equal as per 60 goal scorers, and Gretzky was only ahead by 32% as a point scorer per 60.

Player	Start	End	GP	EVG	EVP	EVTOI/GP*	EVTOI*	EVG/60	EVP/60
Mike Bossy	79-80	82-83	313	162	312	12.5	3912.5	2.48	4.78
Wayne Gretzky	81-82	84-85	314	224	560	17	5338	2.52	6.29

*estimated

On the power play, Bossy scored 23% more goals than Gretzky and Gretzky scored 25% more points than Bossy.

Player	Start	End	GP	PPG	PPP
Mike Bossy	79-80	82-83	313	79	162
Wayne Gretzky	81-82	84-85	314	64	202

But if Bossy played 4.5 PPTOI per game, and Gretzky 6 PPTOI per game, then Bossy was actually 7% better as a per 60 PP point scorer, and was 65% better as a per 60 PP goal scorer.

Player	Start	End	GP	PPG	PPP	PPTOI/GP*	PPTOI*	PPG/60	PPP/60
Mike Bossy	79-80	82-83	313	79	162	4.5	1408.5	3.37	6.90
Wayne Gretzky	81-82	84-85	314	64	202	6	1884	2.04	6.43

*estimated

We can't really compare their SH scoring because Bossy didn't kill penalties, but Gretzky was the greatest SH scorer of all time and it's unlikely Bossy would have matched him.

Overall, it's clear that Gretzky played much more ice time than Bossy. It was well known at the time, and the ice time tracking shows just how big the gap was.

If you adjust for TOI and look at per 60 stats, Bossy was clearly a better goal scorer. Gretzky was still better as an overall offensive player, but not by 50% as you might think by looking at the raw stats.

Finally, here are the more detailed TOI stats for each game.

Gretzky - 1983 05 10

Player Period Start of shift End of shift Shift length State
Wayne Gretzky
1
19:12
17:25
1:47
EV/PP
Wayne Gretzky
1
16:59
16:45
0:14
PP
Wayne Gretzky
1
16:39
16:04
0:35
SH
Wayne Gretzky
1
15:14
14:24
0:50
SH/EV
Wayne Gretzky
1
12:25
11:20
0:55
EV
Wayne Gretzky
1
10:40
8:22
2:18
EV/PP
Wayne Gretzky
1
7:44
6:46
0:58
EV/SH
Wayne Gretzky
1
4:26
3:36
0:50
SH
Wayne Gretzky
1
1:41
0:48
0:53
EV
Wayne Gretzky
2
19:33
18:05
1:28
EV/PP
Wayne Gretzky
2
15:09
13:44
1:25
EV
Wayne Gretzky
2
12:52
12:03
0:49
EV
Wayne Gretzky
2
10:33
8:19
2:14
PP/EV
Wayne Gretzky
2
6:20
5:01
1:19
EV
Wayne Gretzky
2
3:07
1:46
1:23
EV
Wayne Gretzky
3
19:32
17:34
1:58
EV/PP
Wayne Gretzky
3
16:32
14:02
2:30
EV
Wayne Gretzky
3
12:10
11:23
0:47
EV
Wayne Gretzky
3
9:37
8:54
0:43
EV
Wayne Gretzky
3
7:33
5:30
2:03
EV
Wayne Gretzky
3
3:50
3:17
0:33
EV
Wayne Gretzky
3
2:25
0:12
2:13
EV
Wayne Gretzky Total 28:45

Player TOI EVTOI PPTOI SHTOI
Dave Hunter
13:23
12:56
0:00
0:27
Ray Cote
12:45
12:40
0:00
0:05
Pat Hughes
14:41
13:29
0:00
1:12
Glenn Anderson
19:17
12:56
6:21
0:00
Wayne Gretzky
28:45
18:22
8:19
2:04
Jari Kurri
20:59
12:44
6:34
1:41
Mark Messier
18:26
13:01
4:09
1:16
Ken Linseman
14:55
11:52
2:53
0:10
Willy Lindstrom
12:14
9:54
2:20
0:00
Dave Semenko
5:25
4:41
0:44
0:00
Tom Roulston
3:26
3:26
0:00
0:00
Dave Lumley
5:33
5:27
0:06
0:00

Player Pos P1 TOI P2 TOI P3 TOI TOI
Dave Hunter LW
4:08
4:59
4:16
13:23
Ray Cote C
3:25
4:49
4:31
12:45
Pat Hughes RW
4:38
4:59
5:04
14:41
Glenn Anderson LW
5:28
6:16
7:33
19:17
Wayne Gretzky C
9:20
8:38
10:47
28:45
Jari Kurri RW
8:27
6:20
6:12
20:59
Mark Messier LW
5:28
5:53
7:05
18:26
Ken Linseman C
3:49
5:42
5:24
14:55
Willy Lindstrom RW
2:59
4:48
4:27
12:14
Dave Semenko LW
1:26
2:48
1:11
5:25
Tom Roulston C
1:26
2:00
0:00
3:26
Dave Lumley RW
1:26
2:48
1:19
5:33

Gretzky - 1985 05 07

Player Period Start of shift End of shift Shift length State
Wayne Gretzky
1
19:20
17:57
1:23
EV
Wayne Gretzky
1
15:26
14:30
0:56
PP
Wayne Gretzky
1
13:56
13:39
0:17
PP
Wayne Gretzky
1
11:47
10:15
1:32
SH/EV
Wayne Gretzky
1
8:15
6:50
1:25
EV
Wayne Gretzky
1
3:58
2:18
1:40
EV
Wayne Gretzky
1
1:18
0:00
1:18
PP/EV
Wayne Gretzky
2
17:52
16:42
1:10
EV
Wayne Gretzky
2
14:11
12:53
1:18
EV
Wayne Gretzky
2
9:07
7:42
1:25
EV
Wayne Gretzky
2
4:44
2:05
2:39
EV
Wayne Gretzky
2
1:28
0:00
1:28
EV/PP
Wayne Gretzky
3
20:00
18:32
1:28
PP/EV
Wayne Gretzky
3
17:31
16:29
1:02
SH/EV
Wayne Gretzky
3
12:31
10:40
1:51
EV
Wayne Gretzky
3
9:21
8:26
0:55
SH
Wayne Gretzky
3
7:51
6:26
1:25
EV/PP
Wayne Gretzky
3
5:23
4:15
1:08
EV
Wayne Gretzky
3
2:24
1:47
0:37
EV
Wayne Gretzky
3
1:32
0:38
0:54
EV
Wayne Gretzky Total 25:51

Player TOI EVTOI PPTOI SHTOI
Mark Napier
13:02
11:21
1:41
0:00
Mark Messier
20:20
13:46
3:58
2:36
Glenn Anderson
17:07
12:33
4:34
0:00
Dave Semenko
5:36
5:36
0:00
0:00
Wayne Gretzky
25:51
17:24
5:08
3:19
Jari Kurri
21:02
16:06
2:37
2:19
Dave Hunter
14:17
13:16
0:00
1:01
Kevin McClelland
9:42
9:42
0:00
0:00
Willy Lindstrom
11:07
11:07
0:00
0:00
Jaroslav Pouzar
7:26
7:26
0:00
0:00
Mike Krushelnyski
16:15
13:32
2:08
0:35
Pat Hughes
8:08
8:08
0:00
0:00

Player Pos P1 TOI P2 TOI P3 TOI TOI
Mark Napier LW
5:45
4:42
2:35
13:02
Mark Messier C
6:41
4:57
8:42
20:20
Glenn Anderson RW
5:56
5:16
5:55
17:07
Dave Semenko LW
1:55
3:41
0:00
5:36
Wayne Gretzky C
8:31
8:00
9:20
25:51
Jari Kurri RW
7:55
7:31
5:36
21:02
Dave Hunter LW
3:23
4:44
6:10
14:17
Kevin McClelland C
2:20
3:20
4:02
9:42
Willy Lindstrom RW
2:25
3:37
5:05
11:07
Jaroslav Pouzar LW
2:46
4:03
0:37
7:26
Mike Krushelnyski C
7:19
5:49
3:07
16:15
Pat Hughes RW
2:57
4:00
1:11
8:08

Gretzky - 1988 05 18

Player Period Start of shift End of shift Shift length State
Wayne Gretzky
1
19:16
16:59
2:17
EV/PP/EV
Wayne Gretzky
1
16:05
14:55
1:10
SH/EV/SH
Wayne Gretzky
1
13:58
12:40
1:18
SH/EV
Wayne Gretzky
1
11:04
8:43
2:21
EV/PP
Wayne Gretzky
1
6:59
4:58
2:01
EV/SH
Wayne Gretzky
1
3:58
3:24
0:34
SH/EV
Wayne Gretzky
1
1:10
0:00
1:10
EV
Wayne Gretzky
2
19:03
18:04
0:59
EV/PP
Wayne Gretzky
2
16:17
14:37
1:40
EV/SH
Wayne Gretzky
2
13:51
12:14
1:37
SH/EV
Wayne Gretzky
2
10:51
9:25
1:26
EV
Wayne Gretzky
2
5:10
1:32
3:38
EV/PP/EV
Wayne Gretzky
3
18:45
17:34
1:11
EV
Wayne Gretzky
3
16:29
15:02
1:27
SH/EV
Wayne Gretzky
3
13:39
12:24
1:15
SH
Wayne Gretzky
3
11:09
10:16
0:53
EV
Wayne Gretzky
3
8:39
7:30
1:09
EV
Wayne Gretzky
3
5:35
4:43
0:52
EV
Wayne Gretzky
3
3:18
2:15
1:03
EV
Wayne Gretzky
3
1:00
0:00
1:00
EV
Wayne Gretzky Total
29:01

Player TOI EVTOI PPTOI SHTOI
Craig Simpson
14:44
12:57
1:47
0:00
Mark Messier
23:10
14:35
3:22
5:13
Glenn Anderson
16:08
14:26
1:42
0:00
Esa Tikkanen
17:45
13:30
4:15
0:00
Wayne Gretzky
29:01
17:22
5:57
5:42
Jari Kurri
23:09
9:37
5:10
3:33
Mike Krushelnyski
12:09
10:36
0:48
0:45
Kevin McClelland
8:34
8:34
0:00
0:00
Keith Acton
11:59
9:11
0:00
2:48
Geoff Courtnall
5:01
5:01
0:00
0:00
Craig MacTavish
7:41
3:24
0:00
4:17
Normand Lacombe
3:35
3:35
0:00
0:00

Player Pos P1 TOI P2 TOI P3 TOI TOI
Craig Simpson LW
4:18
6:46
3:40
14:44
Mark Messier C
8:54
7:41
6:35
23:10
Glenn Anderson RW
5:49
6:46
3:33
16:08
Esa Tikkanen LW
6:06
6:02
5:37
17:45
Wayne Gretzky C
10:51
9:20
8:50
29:01
Jari Kurri RW
6:54
8:07
8:08
23:09
Mike Krushelnyski LW
2:39
3:49
5:41
12:09
Kevin McClelland C
0:46
2:50
4:58
8:34
Keith Acton RW
4:07
3:04
4:48
11:59
Geoff Courtnall LW
2:38
2:01
0:22
5:01
Craig MacTavish C
3:31
1:56
2:14
7:41
Normand Lacombe RW
1:24
1:49
0:22
3:35

Bossy - 1980 05 03

Player Period Start of shift End of shift Shift length State
Mike Bossy
1
18:30
17:10
1:20
EV
Mike Bossy
1
15:10
14:45
0:24
EV
Mike Bossy
1
13:32
12:02
1:30
PP
Mike Bossy
1
8:20
7:30
0:50
EV
Mike Bossy
1
4:33
3:03
1:30
PP
Mike Bossy
1
0:54
0:00
0:54
EV
Mike Bossy
2
17:13
15:38
1:35
EV
Mike Bossy
2
11:03
8:48
1:15
EV
Mike Bossy
2
6:39
5:29
1:10
EV
Mike Bossy
2
4:01
2:34
1:27
EV
Mike Bossy
3
20:00
19:00
1:00
EV
Mike Bossy
3
15:02
14:42
0:20
EV
Mike Bossy
3
14:25
12:26
1:59
EV/PP
Mike Bossy
3
8:18
7:18
1:00
EV
Mike Bossy
3
6:17
5:32
0:45
EV
Mike Bossy
3
2:25
1:06
1:19
EV
Mike Bossy Total
18:18

Player TOI EVTOI PPTOI SHTOI
Clark Gillies
17:26
14:21
3:05
0:00
Butch Goring
20:58
16:29
2:27
2:02
Mike Bossy
18:18
12:54
5:24
0:00
Bob Bourne
18:55
11:51
4:32
2:32
Bryan Trottier
17:09
11:48
3:57
1:24
Duane Sutter
15:36
15:36
0:00
0:00
John Tonelli
16:51
16:21
0:30
0:00
Wayne Merrick
15:06
14:53
0:13
0:00
Bob Nystrom
15:59
14:46
1:13
0:00
Lorne Henning
8:33
4:20
0:00
4:13
Garry Howatt
6:45
6:45
0:00
0:00

Player Pos P1 TOI P2 TOI P3 TOI TOI
Clark Gillies LW
6:59
5:26
5:01
17:26
Butch Goring C
6:42
5:35
8:41
20:58
Mike Bossy RW
6:28
5:27
6:23
18:18
Bob Bourne LW
6:04
5:25
7:26
18:55
Bryan Trottier C
6:06
5:34
5:29
17:09
Duane Sutter RW
5:37
6:01
3:58
15:36
John Tonelli LW
6:27
6:24
4:00
16:51
Wayne Merrick C
4:16
6:12
4:38
15:06
Bob Nystrom RW
4:49
5:46
5:24
15:59
Lorne Henning C
2:56
2:24
3:13
8:33
Garry Howatt LW
1:00
3:46
1:59
6:45

Bossy - 1981 05 19

Player Period Start of shift End of shift Shift length State
Mike Bossy
1
19:20
19:00
0:20
EV
Mike Bossy
1
16:50
16:13
0:37
EV
Mike Bossy
1
16:00
14:45
1:15
PP
Mike Bossy
1
12:40
11:50
0:50
EV
Mike Bossy
1
7:37
6:16
1:21
PP
Mike Bossy
1
4:16
2:14
2:02
EV/PP
Mike Bossy
2
19:05
18:17
0:48
EV
Mike Bossy
2
14:45
13:13
1:32
EV/PP
Mike Bossy
2
8:30
7:30
1:00
PP
Mike Bossy
2
2:46
1:46
1:00
EV
Mike Bossy
3
19:15
18:20
0:55
EV
Mike Bossy
3
15:56
15:01
0:55
EV
Mike Bossy
3
10:18
9:08
1:10
EV
Mike Bossy
3
7:34
6:54
0:40
EV
Mike Bossy
3
5:31
4:41
0:50
EV
Mike Bossy
3
1:48
0:00
1:48
EV
Mike Bossy Total
17:03
EV

Player TOI EVTOI PPTOI SHTOI
Clark Gillies
16:25
11:24
5:01
0:00
Bryan Trottier
20:51
10:00
5:36
5:15
Mike Bossy
17:03
11:02
6:01
0:00
Bob Bourne
16:28
7:15
4:10
4:35
Duane Sutter
3:13
3:13
0
0
John Tonelli
14:27
14:27
0
0
Butch Goring
18:45
8:07
3:35
6:43
Bob Nystrom
16:09
16:09
0
0
Billy Carroll
11:29
3:23
0
8:06
Wayne Merrick
16:16
16:16
0
0
Anders Kallur
12:13
7:20
3:10
3:43

Player Pos P1 TOI P2 TOI P3 TOI TOI
Clark Gillies LW
5:45
4:22
6:18
16:25
Bryan Trottier C
9:15
5:43
5:53
20:51
Mike Bossy RW
6:25
4:10
6:18
16:53
Bob Bourne LW
5:23
5:41
5:24
16:28
Duane Sutter F
0:39
0:12
2:22
3:13
John Tonelli LW
4:21
5:35
4:31
14:27
Butch Goring C
5:41
5:55
7:09
18:45
Bob Nystrom RW
4:41
5:48
5:40
16:09
Billy Carroll F
3:11
3:59
4:19
11:29
Wayne Merrick C
5:20
5:50
5:06
16:16
Anders Kallur RW
3:48
5:48
2:37
12:13

Bossy - 1983 05 03

Player Period Start of shift End of shift Shift length State
Mike Bossy
1
20:00
19:17
0:43
EV
Mike Bossy
1
15:39
14:14
1:25
EV
Mike Bossy
1
11:42
10:42
1:00
EV
Mike Bossy
1
9:56
9:10
0:46
EV
Mike Bossy
1
3:53
3:13
0:40
EV
Mike Bossy
1
2:23
1:11
1:12
PP
Mike Bossy
2
20:00
19:00
1:00
PP
Mike Bossy
2
17:01
15:55
1:06
EV
Mike Bossy
2
13:53
12:43
1:10
EV
Mike Bossy
2
11:32
9:52
1:40
PP
Mike Bossy
2
6:48
6:01
0:47
EV
Mike Bossy
2
4:10
3:10
1:00
EV
Mike Bossy
2
0:50
0:00
0:50
EV
Mike Bossy
3
20:00
19:07
0:53
EV
Mike Bossy
3
17:07
16:47
0:20
EV
Mike Bossy
3
13:36
12:32
1:04
PP/EV
Mike Bossy
3
9:36
9:02
0:34
EV
Mike Bossy Total
16:10

Player Pos TOI EVTOI PPTOI SHTOI
Bryan Trottier C
20:08
12:13
4:07
3:48
Bob Nystrom RW
17:36
17:36
0:00
0:00
Bob Bourne LW
17:31
11:17
2:54
3:20
Mike Bossy RW
16:10
12:03
4:07
0:00
John Tonelli LW
14:34
14:34
0:00
0:00
Duane Sutter RW
13:34
10:40
2:54
0:00
Brent Sutter C
13:24
10:30
2:54
0:00
Butch Goring C
12:46
9:33
0:00
3:13
Anders Kallur LW/RW
12:42
10:05
1:57
0:40
Clark Gillies LW
11:52
9:42
2:10
0:00
Billy Carroll LW/C
9:06
3:08
0:00
5:58
Wayne Merrick C
8:56
8:56
0:00
0:00

Player Pos P1 TOI P2 TOI P3 TOI TOI
Bryan Trottier C
9:22
7:33
3:13
20:08
Bob Nystrom RW
3:40
6:51
7:05
17:36
Bob Bourne LW
6:54
5:48
4:49
17:31
Mike Bossy RW
5:46
7:33
2:51
16:10
John Tonelli LW
4:10
5:41
4:43
14:34
Duane Sutter RW
3:14
5:36
4:44
13:34
Brent Sutter C
3:14
5:36
4:34
13:24
Butch Goring C
4:51
5:16
2:39
12:46
Anders Kallur LW/RW
1:08
6:13
5:21
12:42
Clark Gillies LW
5:04
2:18
4:30
11:52
Billy Carroll LW/C
3:15
0:00
5:51
9:06
Wayne Merrick C
3:22
1:35
3:59
8:56

Al Arbour:

Used Tonelli-Merrick-Nystrom as his #1 line at ES, and didn't use them on special teams, which balanced the TOI for the top 3 lines.
In one game, he changed the lines and moved the fourth liners farther up the lineup halfway through the game, which further balanced the lines. He also sat Trottier, Bossy, and Goring down halfway through the third period in a blowout win.
Started with 3 lines at EV, and added a 4th line in the second half of the game.
For defensive zone faceoffs, often replaced a winger with Goring or Trottier. They got off the ice at the first opportunity after the faceoff.
Rarely sent a forward out on special teams if he had just played a full EV shift, the second unit would start if needed to give the first unit a break.
Bossy and Trottier seemed to be less trusted defensively in the 1980 game than they were in 1981 and 1983
Goring played a smaller role in 1983 than he did in 1980 and 1981

Glen Sather

Used his best forwards, Gretzky, Messier, and Kurri, as his go-to forwards in all situations.
Started with 4 lines, and dropped to 3 lines halfway through the game
As a result, several bottom 6 forwards played under 10 minutes in each game, because they didn't play on special teams and played limited EV time.
Didn't send Gretzky out at the start of periods, he went out as the second or third line. Possibly to make it harder to match up against him, and easier for opponents to lose Gretzky.
Gretzky frequently stayed out longer and played with a second pair of wingers on the PP, and sometimes at ES
Always sent out Gretzky in a special teams situation, even if he had just played a full EV shift. Gretzky frequently played 2 minute shifts overlapping the start or end of a power play or PK

MadLuke · Tuesday at 11:16 AM

Looking at the numbers and description, even if we repeat it often and mentally understand it, it is a bit hard to fully take into account how much fitness-vo2max-endurance mental and physical Gretzky had as a tool in his toolbox, when people say he was not as physically gifted than some others big stars.

We do it for defenceman, really value being able to play high level over 30 minutes, the Bourque and Duncan Keith and so on, but less so for forward.

Imagine the coach playing against Gretzky and has the game goes on he get more and more ice.... you have to have a plan against him and matching at EV, PP and Short handed now ?

It is easier to find blazing speed or other more in your face physical advantage a great talent, but that level of endurance could go a bit against carrying all of that muscle mass.

overpass · Tuesday at 12:31 PM

Adding shift numbers and average shift lengths.

1980 05 03

Player	Period	Shifts	TOI	Average shift
Mike Bossy	1	6	6:28	1:04
Mike Bossy	2	5	5:27	1:05
Mike Bossy	3	5	6:23	1:16
Mike Bossy	Total	16	18:18	1:08

1981 05 19

Player	Period	Shifts	TOI	Average shift
Mike Bossy	1	6	6:25	1:04
Mike Bossy	2	4	4:20	1:05
Mike Bossy	3	6	6:18	1:03
Mike Bossy	Total	16	17:03	1:03

1983 05 03

Player	Period	Shifts	TOI	Average shift
Mike Bossy	1	6	5:46	0:57
Mike Bossy	2	7	7:33	1:04
Mike Bossy	3	4	2:51	0:42
Mike Bossy	Total	17	16:10	0:57

Bossy would have likely played closer to 19 minutes in the 1983 game if it was close. He, Trottier, and Goring didn't play a shift in the last 9 minutes of the game, when the Islanders led by 5 or 6 goals.

1983 05 10

Player	Period	Shifts	TOI	Average shift
Wayne Gretzky	1	9	9:20	1:02
Wayne Gretzky	2	6	8:38	1:26
Wayne Gretzky	3	7	10:47	1:32
Wayne Gretzky	Total	22	28:45	1:18

1985 05 07

Player	Period	Shifts	TOI	Average shift
Wayne Gretzky	1	7	8:31	1:13
Wayne Gretzky	2	5	8:00	1:36
Wayne Gretzky	3	8	9:20	1:10
Wayne Gretzky	Total	20	25:51	1:17

1988 05 18

Player	Period	Shifts	TOI	Average shift
Wayne Gretzky	1	7	10:51	1:33
Wayne Gretzky	2	5	9:20	1:52
Wayne Gretzky	3	8	8:50	1:06
Wayne Gretzky	Total	20	29:01	1:27

Gretzky played more shifts, and played longer shifts.

The longest shift I tracked was a 3:38 shift by Gretzky late in the second period of Game 1 against Boston in 1988. He played a full EV shift, then a full PP, then some time after the PP ended. There were 6 different Edmonton forwards out with him during this time.

Late in the second period, the score was 1-1. Esa Tikkanen, Wayne Gretzky, and Jari Kurri took the ice with 5:10 to go, following Simpson-Messier-Anderson. They played for 17 seconds and then there was a defensive zone faceoff. Mike Krushelnyski came out to take the faceoff, replacing Tikkanen. He played for 27 seconds at EV with Gretzky and Kurri, and then Tikkanen came back on for Krushelnyski. The EV shift continued until 3:52, when Willi Plett took a holding penalty to put Boston down a man. By this time Gretzky had been on the ice for 1:18.

Gretzky, Kurri, and Tikkanen stayed out for the power play, with Mark Messier joining them. Kurri played the right point. After 73 seconds on the PP, the Bruins cleared the puck, and Messier, Tikkanen, and Kurri all switched off. Kurri had played the last 2:36, and Tikkanen the last 1:47. Gretzky stayed on the ice for the remaining 47 seconds of the power play, centering Craig Simpson and Glenn Anderson. The three forwards stayed on the ice for 20 seconds after the power play ended, and then Gretzky finally left the ice together with Simpson and Anderson at 1:32, replaced by Krushelynski-McClelland-Acton.

Gretzky played with 6 other forwards during this shift. Kurri, Tikkanen, Krushelnyski, Messier, Simpson, and Anderson.

overpass · Tuesday at 2:21 PM

Now I'll use the on-ice plus-minus data to generate ice time estimates for Bossy's career and Gretzky's Edmonton career, and see how they compare to the three games I've tracked.

I'll estimate on-ice shorthanded goals for each player, and then get on-ice ESGF and ESGA by using TGF-PGF-estimated SHGF and TGA-PGA-estimated ESGA. I'll also remove any numbers from games where Gretzky and Bossy didn't play from the team totals.

For Bossy's career, he was on the ice for 39.9% of his team's ESGF, and 30.2% of his team's ESGA.

For Gretzky's EDM career, he was on the ice for 52.3% of his team's ESGF, and 43.4% of his team's ESGA.

For Bossy's career, he was on the ice for 74% of his team's PPGF, and 5% of his team's PPGA.

For Gretzky's EDM career, he was on the ice for 86% of his team's PPGF, and 35% of his team's PPGA.

For the three games I tracked, I had Bossy at 28.7% of his team's ESTOI, and Gretzky at 38.9% of his team's ESTOI. That's pretty close to the ESGA percentages. I also had Bossy at 64% of PPTOI and 0% of SHTOI, and Gretzky at 86% of PPTOI, and 56% of SHTOI.

So I'll make the assumption that Bossy and Gretzky played EV ice time roughly in proportion to their ESGA. The tracking data suggests they may have played slightly less ice time than that, but it's close enough. I'll also assume they played PP ice time roughly in proportion to their percentage of PP goals they were on the ice for (almost certainly not true because first units are more productive, but the error will be in the same direction and I'm not going to take the time to get a better estimate.) And I'll assume they played SH ice time roughly in proportion to their on-ice percentage of PPGA.

I'll estimate team PPTOI and SHTOI using (PP opportunities*2 - PPG)/1.1.

After all these calculations, I get:

Bossy with an estimated 14.3 ESTOI/game, 4.1 PPTOI/game, and 0.4 SHTOI/game, 18.8 total TOI/game.
Gretzky with an estimated 20.1 ESTOI/game, 5.4 PPTOI/game, and 2.7 SHTOI/game. 28.2 total TOI/game.

These are purely numbers-based estimates, but they're not far off the average of the three games that I tracked.

Using these estimates, here are the per-60 scoring rates for Bossy and for Edmonton Gretzky.

Bossy: 2.14 EVG/60, 4.11 EVP/60, 3.47 PPG/60, 7.29 PPP/60, 1.81 SHG/60, 2.04 SHP/60
Gretzky: 1.73 EVG/60, 4.82 EVP/60, 1.99 PPG/60, 7.00 PPP/60, 1.74 SHG/60, 3.41 SHP/60

Per these estimated scoring rates, Gretzky produced even strength points at a 17% higher per-60 rate than Bossy. Bossy had a slight edge in power play points per-60. As a per-60 goal scorer, Bossy was 24% ahead at even strength and 74% ahead on the power play. And of course Gretzky was a better playmaker in all situations, 57% ahead per EV60 and 31% ahead per PP60.

Again, this is all based on the official stats. I'm confident that these are in the right ballpark now that I've tracked some games for a check against the numbers.

Finally, is it 100% fair to compare per-60 scoring rates for a forward who plays 28 minutes per game against a forward who plays 18 minutes per game? Maybe not. Bossy got more recovery time between his shifts, and to my eye he did play with a high motor for a star forward.

But it's clearly not fair to compare per-game scoring rates without considering big differences in minutes played, either.

tarheelhockey · Tuesday at 5:45 PM

I don’t have a pre-determined opinion on this so I’m looking forward to seeing the commentary from those who know more than I do.

I will just contribute the two obvious lines of argument as I see them:

- Bossy could have scored more than Gretzky, but his team was more interested in winning hockey games than running up numbers.

- Well, if Bossy could skate all those minutes, and score all those goals, and still help his team win… then his name would be Wayne Gretzky.

Jumptheshark · Tuesday at 6:11 PM

Here is me being REALY old kicks in.

It was not until about 1990 that people started paying closer attention to TOI vs that that had been released to the different media outlets.. It is what I call part of the Boston Bruin rules.

What is the Boston Bruins rules?

Our dear old friend J. Jacobs used to love it when the bruins had lots and lots of shots and in the 70's and 80's (according to Donald S Cherry--so take it with a pound of salt) he made it clear to the in house staff counting shots on net that nearly any time pucks hit the goal posts, block shots, goalie handing the puck or other stuff along those long lines--it counted as a shot for the Bruins. In about 1990 the league become more stricter in the rules that the off ice officials had to go by. Do not know about now. But for many years off ice officials were employed by the NHL team and not the NHL and that is why if you watch many old playoff games from the 70's and 80's--you would hear "Todays off ice officials are from another team not involved in that game. Why? Long story short--one team was notorious for their off ice officials being a little slow at opening the box when a penalty for the other team was over and other things

MadLuke · Tuesday at 6:23 PM

Jumptheshark said:
It was not until about 1990 that people started paying closer attention to TOI vs that that had been released to the different media outlets.. It is what I call part of the Boston Bruin rules.

Is this apply to a poster that take time to himself count ice time and not rely on TOI stats (from the media or arena official, not sure if he have access to those from those eras...)

Maybe I am missing the point being made here.

tarheelhockey said:
- Well, if Bossy could skate all those minutes, and score all those goals, and still help his team win… then his name would be Wayne Gretzky.

That also a bit of my first reaction and thought when it came up about Bure, as long as you play even tired better than your team replacement level, the more you play kind of the better....

And we should trust the coaching staff decision here that you were. It is not nothing, specially if you were a bit buried like 91-92-93 Jagr in a dept chart.

But Gretzky large ice-time, even on loaded team Canada when they needed him are both a product of his greatness and one of the reason he was so great versus the other stars.

Ray Bourque loaded a lot of minutes over most of his competition, I would bet, but everyone integrate fully that Bourque minutes and what it mean for a team to have him on the ice for half of big games where his team won half of that game almost all the time almost against everybody is so valuable.

Peak Gretzky +/- do not show sign that it was a bad strategy to play him a lot.

overpass · Tuesday at 6:23 PM

For me, the big takeaway from knowing Gretzky played about 50% more ice time than Bossy is that it's a counter to the simple argument that "Gretzky scored more goals than Bossy, so there's no case for Bossy as the best goal scorer." Actually the people who saw them play tended to rate Bossy among the best goal scorer ever, so maybe the hockey card stats are misleading.

For Gretzky, it looks like maybe half his big regular season scoring leads can be explained by playing way more minutes than the competition. Hard to say without knowing what Stastny and Savard and other competitors were playing. We knew he played a ton of minutes already but it's good to have rhat quantified. Of course he was still a great great player and there's value to having that kind of stamina.

When you know that Gretzky was playing 27 minutes a game, maybe it's easier to understand why Gretzky didn't win the Conn Smythe with 35 point playoffs. Or why some hockey people rated Bossy and/or Trottier with Gretzky before Gretzky won the Cup, despite the scoring gaps.

And when you know Bossy was only playing 17-19 minutes a game, it makes sense why contemporary opinion had him among the very greatest goal scorers ever although his scoring-level adjusted goals aren't at that level.

overpass · Tuesday at 6:30 PM

MadLuke said:
Is this apply to a poster that take time to himself count ice time and not rely on TOI (from the media or arena official, not sure if he have access to those from those eras...)

Yeah, these aren't from the media or arena, I tracked the time myself from the TV broadcast on YouTube.

It's not an exact science because you don't see the bench for most of the changes on the fly, but if you've watched hockey you know when the teams are changing and can make a pretty good estimate when shift changes on the fly take place. I reconciled the numbers every time the broadcast mentioned the time remaining, and I was usually within one or two seconds.

Jumptheshark · Tuesday at 6:31 PM

MadLuke said:
Is this apply to a poster that take time to himself count ice time and not rely on TOI (from the media or arena official, not sure if he have access to those from those eras...)

Maybe I am missing the point being made here.

That also a bit of my first reaction and thought when it came up about Bure, as long as you play even tired better than your team replacement level, the more you play kind of the better....

And we should trust the coaching staff decision here that you were. It is not nothing, specially if you were a bit buried like 91-92-93 Jagr in a dept chart.

But Gretzky large ice-time, even on loaded team Canada when they needed him are both a product of his greatness and one of the reason he was so great versus the other stars.

Ray Bourque loaded a lot of minutes over most of his competition, I would bet, but everyone integrate fully that Bourque minutes and what it mean for a team to have him on the ice for half of big games where his team won half to that game almost all the time almost against everybody is so valuable.

Peak Gretzky +/- do not show sign that it was a bad strategy to play him a lot.

Starting in about 1990 the NHL got involved in TOI, shots and goals and other stats that the teams used to be charges of counting.

MadLuke · Tuesday at 6:31 PM

overpass said:
When you know that Gretzky was playing 27 minutes a game, maybe it's easier to understand why Gretzky didn't win the Conn Smythe with 35 point playoffs.

That feel counterintuitive, the more minute you played has a plus player the more important to your team winning it will tend to make you as the team is winning more and more of the minutes played.

It is true that it can mean something about who were the better raw goalscorer for sure, same for scoring effect.

overpass · Tuesday at 7:20 PM

MadLuke said:
That feel counterintuitive, the more minute you played has a plus player the more important to your team winning it will tend to make you as the team is winning more and more of the minutes played.

It is true that it can mean something about who were the better raw goalscorer for sure, same for scoring effect.

But if we're talking about Gretzky vs Messier in the 1984 and 1987 playoffs, it's worth knowing that they probably scored at similar rates, right? And scoring rates usually correlate with what you see on the ice aside from just the scoring plays, so you'd see Messier out there playing well, like Gretzky, while also matching up against Trottier and Savard and Hawerchuk.

MadLuke · Tuesday at 7:36 PM

25 EV points for Gretzky to 15 for Messier, that would be a lot more minutes to be on a same pace, 66% ? and at similar rate the more you play the better,

would the Isles try to match Trottier with Messier instead of using their best 2-way player and athlete to try to stop Gretzky ? At a point if you play that much you cannot choose too much who you face.

overpass · Tuesday at 8:19 PM

MadLuke said:
25 EV points for Gretzky to 15 for Messier, that would be a lot more minutes to be on a same pace, 66% ? and at similar rate the more you play the better,

would the Isles try to match Trottier with Messier instead of using their best 2-way player and athlete to try to stop Gretzky ? At a point if you play that much you cannot choose too much who you face.

In the game I tracked (1983 finals game 1), the commentators noted that Sather wanted Messier against Trottier, and Arbour was ok with that because he was matching Goring against Gretzky. I didn't track the matchups, and it obviously wasn't 1-1 with Gretzky playing that much ice time, but Messier-Trottier and Goring-Gretzky were frequent matchups.

MarotteMarauder · Tuesday at 8:28 PM

If one could find games where Bossy played significantly more minutes thatn his average and see how his performance was compared to his average game point production, we would get an idea if Bossy would have scored that much more or if he became ineffective with a great load of ice time.

overpass · Tuesday at 8:42 PM

MarotteMarauder said:
If one could find games where Bossy played significantly more minutes thatn his average and see how his performance was compared to his average game point production, we would get an idea if Bossy would have scored that much more or if he became ineffective with a great load of ice time.

I made an earlier thread on Bossy vs Gretzky as a goal scorer, and there was a post that pointed out that Bossy appeared to get more ice time when gunning for 50 in 50 in 80-81, and in the latter part of the 81-82 season. In those two time periods, Bossy combined for 73 goals in 69 games while shooting noticeably more shots per game, an indicator of more ice time.

See below.

Mike Bossy was a better goal scorer than Wayne Gretzky

I've noticed most arguments for Bossy make a better case for why he had a better shot rather than being a better overall goal scorer. Yes, he scored goals at a higher rate when he had scoring chances and didn't need as high % of chances as Gretzky to score goals due to his superior shot. But...

forums.hfboards.com

ContrarianGoaltender said:
Yeah, I think the coaching comparison is key to the argument that Bossy could have scored more. I also agree that Bossy was openly gunning for 50-in-50, if you watch interviews that was the thing he wanted above all else in terms of regular season accomplishments.

What makes Bossy a huge outlier among his top goal scoring peers is that he is the only one that wasn't a huge volume shooter, even though based on his skills there's no reason he couldn't have been putting as many pucks on net as anyone:

Top-3 finishes in shots:

Player Actual On Pace Total
Alex Ovechkin 14 2 16
Bobby Hull 11 2 13
Gordie Howe 9* 0 9*
Pavel Bure 5 4 9
Phil Esposito 7 1 8
Brett Hull 6 1 7
Wayne Gretzky 6 0 6
Mario Lemieux 1 5 6
Mike Bossy 0 0 0

[TBODY][/TBODY]
(*-Since 1959-60 only, could have been as many as 20 if we had shot data from every season)

There are two points in Bossy's career when it looks like he got the green light to go for individual stats, and as a result his shot totals climbed significantly. That was chasing 50 in 1980-81, and also towards the end of the 1981-82 season when the Islanders were pushing back against Gretzky and the Oilers grabbing all the attention in Edmonton's breakout year:

Period GP S S/GP
1977-78 to 1979-80 228 760 3.33
First 10 GP in 1980-81 10 35 3.50
Next 40 GP in 1980-81 40 194 4.85
Final 29 GP in 1980-81 29 86 2.97
First 51 GP in 1981-82 51 177 3.47
Final 29 GP in 1981-82 29 124 4.28
1982-83 to 1985-86 302 1107 3.67

[TBODY][/TBODY]
Bossy scored a hat trick against the Habs in game 11 in 1980-81, and apparently decided at that point that 50-in-50 was within reach. The 1981-82 season stands out as well, because Bossy tended to tail off in scoring towards the end of the year (which I think was related to his team saving itself for the playoffs to some degree), and up until that point in his career he wasn't blowing out the worst teams in the league at all (against my definition of weak teams he only had a 1.35 PPG from 1978-1981, but in 1981-82 he went 24-27-27-54 for 2.25 PPG). The Isles went on a 15 game win streak in late Jan/early Feb, and then kept the pedal down to finish 14-3-4 and take first overall (with Bossy and Trottier both finishing high in the scoring race). From the middle of the streak until the end of the season, Bossy's shots and scoring stats again took a pretty major jump.

The 1981-82 season and especially the stretch run was probably the closest Bossy got to playing in an Oilers-type regular season environment where the team was going for it offensively every single night. And the 50-in-50 was definitely the only time that Bossy had the equivalent of an Ovechkin/Hull-type usage where the whole team was set up just to get him shooting opportunities, accounting for that crazy 58% jump in shots per game over the rest of his season.

Not surprisingly, Bossy's stats were pretty eye-popping when his utilization rate increased:

GP G A P +/- S
Chasing 50 in 1981 40 45 27 72 34 194
Stretch Run in 1982 29 28 36 64 28 124
Total 69 73 63 136 62 318
Per 80 GP 80 84 73 158 72 369

[TBODY][/TBODY]
I doubt Bossy could have maintained that assist rate over an extended period of time, but the goals side doesn't really look that unsustainable since he had only a 22.8% shooting percentage, not far out of line for a guy that averaged 21.5% for his career excluding 1986-87. If he played on a team that was set up to allow him to take ~5 shots a game, I think 80 goals was clearly within reach. This is one of the reasons I don't buy the argument by @GlitchMarner that Bossy's peak wasn't high enough to enter the GOAT goal scoring debate (the other is that people underestimate the difference in scoring environments between 1978-79 and the early '80s).

The Panther · Tuesday at 8:48 PM

Some points:

-- I don't doubt that Bossy, on average, played fewer minutes than Gretzky. Just the fact that Gretzky was often on the 2nd-PK unit, while Bossy never killed penalties, would make that difference, even if all else was equal.

-- I appreciate the hard work to track ice-time (must be laborious), but I don't think you can watch only three important playoff games and draw a conclusion based on 750 or 1400 regular season games. I'm not surprised at Gretzky's significant ice-time in games 1 of the '83 and '88 Cup Finals, but that game 2 vs. Chicago is a little surprising. But these are all games from the mid-80s, when Gretzky ruled the roost. It would be interesting to compare, say, game 1 of the 1981 Montreal series, or post-Edmonton Gretzky. (I recall someone on here clocked him in game 7 of the 1993 Toronto series and his ice-time was suprisingly low, like 19 minutes or something.)

-- It's clearly NOT the case that simple added ice-time equals proportionately increased scoring. Maybe it somewhat is in Gretzky's case, as he was constantly driven to score, but for most players it isn't. More ice-time means players get more tired and make different kinds of plays. Then, there are 'score-effects'. If you're getting a lot of ice-time in a 7-1 game, you're probably not going all out to score like you were in the 1st period.

Gretzky did get ice-time when he needed it though. Dave Lumley recalled that when there were delays in the action and Sather was preoccupied with something else, Gretzky was sit at the bench's door and bang it open-and-shut so that Sather would hear it, and send him out...

overpass · Tuesday at 8:54 PM

In the 40 games when Bossy was gunning for 50 in 50 - game 11 to game 50 of 80-81 - he had almost twice as many shots on goal as any other Islander forward, and scored 45 goals in 40 games.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Shots on goal (NYI F)
Bossy 194
Bourne 105
Gilles 96
Trottier 88
Kallur 88
Goring 82

Then in the remaining 29 GP of the season, when Bossy was back to playing his normal lower ice time, probably being rested for the playoffs, he barely led the team in shots on goal and scored only 12 in 29 GP.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Shots on goal (NYI F)
Bossy 86
Bourne 77
Gillies 70
Nystrom 58
Kallur 56

Bossy likely would have had multiple 80 goal seasons if he played 23-24 minutes a game like he did while gunning for 50 in 50. As I posted in another thread, a newspaper article on one of the games just before he got to 50 said Bossy double shifted with the fourth line and played 24 minutes. Similar to what great goal scorers in more recent years like Bure and Ovechkin have played while ice time was recorded.

The Panther · Tuesday at 9:22 PM

Okay, we get it -- you worship Bossy.

Gorskyontario · Tuesday at 9:26 PM

The Panther said:
Okay, we get it -- you worship Bossy.

Why are you ignoring the statistical data in this thread?

MadLuke · Tuesday at 9:34 PM

overpass said:
Bossy likely would have had multiple 80 goal seasons if he played 23-24 minutes a game like he did while gunning for 50 in 50. As I posted in another thread, a newspaper article on one of the games just before he got to 50 said Bossy double shifted with the fourth line and played 24 minutes

Considering his career arc and back problem, not sure if likely is the right word for multiple 80 goals seasons, something no one ever did outside Gretzky and he did it only 2 time.

Not Hull, not Lemieux and there was only 4 of thoses seasons overall, no one scored 70 during Bossy career that was not Gretzkty or playing with him, even during that time 75 was an high bar. No almost or above gpg season cut short either.

Going for it all-in 24 minutes a night at his very peak and in a hot streak he barely reached 1 goal per game, Charlie Simmer scored 50 goals in 50 games at one points, Bossy and Nichols peaked at 51.

80+ goals in 80 games you need to have some margin (or extreme luck), player that could score 80+ in 80 tend to have scored near 60 or more in 50 (Lemieux-Hull-Gretzky-in a WW2 weak league Richard) did this. And that does not make it certain even then, Mogilny went up to 59 in 50 and had a 84 games seasons to do it and did not.

reckoning · Tuesday at 9:59 PM

As a hobby I like to track icetimes from old games (do I have an exciting life?), and for the last couple of years I've been trying to track every game I can find on YT from the 83-84 season. I've done about 20 or so games so far from that season. (I'm up to mid-Jan). Now these are only regular season games, so I would expect playoff games to have higher numbers for top-line players, but here's what I have for the two of them in admittedly small samples:

Bossy:
Oct 06 vs Mtl: 18:08 (PP- 0:00)
Nov 26 vs Chi: 15:22 (PP- 1:03)
Dec 04 vs Edm: 18:25 (PP- 2:40)
Dec 13 vs Edm: 19:13 (PP- 1:05)
Dec 15 vs Edm: 15:47 (PP- 2:17)

Gretzky:
Oct 13 vs Clg: 26:42 (PP- 4:07)
Nov 13 vs Chi: 32:33 (PP- 4:22)
Nov 19 vs Njd: 26:07 (PP- 3:51)
Dec 04 vs NYI: 26:25 (PP- 6:50)
Dec 13 vs NYI: 27:22 (PP- 5:21)
Jan 04 vs Min: 26:27 (PP- 6:49)

Bossy's numbers are startlingly low, but it could be explained by two factors: it was mentioned by announcers in a couple of games that Bossy was not 100%, so Arbour likely didn't want him aggravating any nagging injuries. I suspect his TOI was higher in his earlier healthier seasons. As well, in most of those games the Islanders had it clinched by the end of the second period, so there was no need to overplay their stars.

The Oilers were a three-line team for most of those games: Gretzky and Kurri with either Pouzar or Lindstrom on the first line, Mess-Linseman-Anderson on the second line, then a checking line with Hunter, Hughes and either Conacher or McClelland. They would always have a fourth line cobbled together from whoever else was available ( Semenko, Lumley, Habscheid, Roulston), but their time would be in the single digits.

Aside from Gretzky, the only other two forwards I had at over 25:00 in a game were Hawerchuk and Ogrodnick. Most icetime for a defenceman? Dave Babych at 37:31 in a game against the Islanders

The last point I want to make is that I don't think the higher TOI should be held against Gretzky. Most players can't handle that heavy a workload without becoming a liability late in games. But Gretzky never looks tired, even at the end of a two minute shift. Not many players can do that, and I consider the high TOI as a positive for Gretzky.

MadLuke · Tuesday at 11:18 PM

reckoning said:
Nov 13 vs Chi: 32:33 (PP- 4:22)

32 minutes and a half, for a forward with no overtime played, regular November game when the Oilers started that season 11-2-1....

Oilers were behind 3-2 since the end of the 2nd period, so they needed a goal.... wonder if the single shot registered for Gretzky is accurate here.

Michael Farkas · Tuesday at 11:22 PM

In my notes (as I do this and capture them in games that I watch too), I have a 32:51 for Gretzky in game 2 of the 1988 Smythe Division Final vs. Calgary (ended 7:54 into OT).

It's not the same guys, obviously...but just to help continue to paint a picture of Isles ice time distribution...I took Potvin and Langway ice time from the same game in '84. Langway played ~7 more minutes.

More even usage is more common for defensive teams.

Mike C · Wednesday at 12:01 AM

I think it's also worth noting that Gretzky had free reign to pretty much do what he wanted and ran a "fast break" offense if you will, while Bossy played inside a structured system

I think Gretzky and Orr are the best players of all time. That said, Bossy has to be recognized as a great pure goal scorer

Obscured becauce he WAS such a prolific scorer, his playmaking ability is grossly overlooked and undrr appreciated. Bossy only had 40 less assists than goals lifetime and 10 less in 129 playoff games

Player	Period	Start of shift	End of shift	Shift length	State
Wayne Gretzky	1	19:12	17:25	1:47	EV/PP
Wayne Gretzky	1	16:59	16:45	0:14	PP
Wayne Gretzky	1	16:39	16:04	0:35	SH
Wayne Gretzky	1	15:14	14:24	0:50	SH/EV
Wayne Gretzky	1	12:25	11:20	0:55	EV
Wayne Gretzky	1	10:40	8:22	2:18	EV/PP
Wayne Gretzky	1	7:44	6:46	0:58	EV/SH
Wayne Gretzky	1	4:26	3:36	0:50	SH
Wayne Gretzky	1	1:41	0:48	0:53	EV
Wayne Gretzky	2	19:33	18:05	1:28	EV/PP
Wayne Gretzky	2	15:09	13:44	1:25	EV
Wayne Gretzky	2	12:52	12:03	0:49	EV
Wayne Gretzky	2	10:33	8:19	2:14	PP/EV
Wayne Gretzky	2	6:20	5:01	1:19	EV
Wayne Gretzky	2	3:07	1:46	1:23	EV
Wayne Gretzky	3	19:32	17:34	1:58	EV/PP
Wayne Gretzky	3	16:32	14:02	2:30	EV
Wayne Gretzky	3	12:10	11:23	0:47	EV
Wayne Gretzky	3	9:37	8:54	0:43	EV
Wayne Gretzky	3	7:33	5:30	2:03	EV
Wayne Gretzky	3	3:50	3:17	0:33	EV
Wayne Gretzky	3	2:25	0:12	2:13	EV
Wayne Gretzky	Total			28:45

Player	Pos	P1 TOI	P2 TOI	P3 TOI	TOI
Dave Hunter	LW	4:08	4:59	4:16	13:23
Ray Cote	C	3:25	4:49	4:31	12:45
Pat Hughes	RW	4:38	4:59	5:04	14:41
Glenn Anderson	LW	5:28	6:16	7:33	19:17
Wayne Gretzky	C	9:20	8:38	10:47	28:45
Jari Kurri	RW	8:27	6:20	6:12	20:59
Mark Messier	LW	5:28	5:53	7:05	18:26
Ken Linseman	C	3:49	5:42	5:24	14:55
Willy Lindstrom	RW	2:59	4:48	4:27	12:14
Dave Semenko	LW	1:26	2:48	1:11	5:25
Tom Roulston	C	1:26	2:00	0:00	3:26
Dave Lumley	RW	1:26	2:48	1:19	5:33

Player	Actual	On Pace	Total
Alex Ovechkin	14	2	16
Bobby Hull	11	2	13
Gordie Howe	9*	0	9*
Pavel Bure	5	4	9
Phil Esposito	7	1	8
Brett Hull	6	1	7
Wayne Gretzky	6	0	6
Mario Lemieux	1	5	6
Mike Bossy	0	0	0

Period	GP	S	S/GP
1977-78 to 1979-80	228	760	3.33
First 10 GP in 1980-81	10	35	3.50
Next 40 GP in 1980-81	40	194	4.85
Final 29 GP in 1980-81	29	86	2.97
First 51 GP in 1981-82	51	177	3.47
Final 29 GP in 1981-82	29	124	4.28
1982-83 to 1985-86	302	1107	3.67

	GP	G	A	P	+/-	S
Chasing 50 in 1981	40	45	27	72	34	194
Stretch Run in 1982	29	28	36	64	28	124
Total	69	73	63	136	62	318
Per 80 GP	80	84	73	158	72	369

Wayne Gretzky and Mike Bossy - Time on ice

Registered User

Registered User

Registered User

Registered User

Offside Review Specialist

Rebooting myself

Registered User

Registered User

Registered User

Rebooting myself

Registered User

Registered User

Registered User

Registered User

Registered User

Registered User

Registered User

Registered User

Registered User

Registered User

Registered User

Registered User

Registered User

Celebrate 68

Registered User

Ad

Ad

Ad