Was Kharlamov over-rated? | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League

Was Kharlamov over-rated?

The "what if" element is a powerful one.

I think it applies to all kinds of players, including Kharlamov, Orr and Lindbergh, and to a lesser extent, guys like Bobby Hull, Jaromir Jagr and Eric Lindros.
 
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The "what if" element is a powerful one.

I think it applies to all kinds of players, including Kharlamov, Orr and Lindbergh, and to a lesser extent, guys like Bobby Hull, Jaromir Jagr and Eric Lindros.
I found it more curious that compared to other Russian greats (Makarov, Petrov Mikhailov, Maltsev), he was clearly behind them in terms of: top 10 finishes, MVP voting, and Vs2.
 
I found it more curious that compared to other Russian greats (Makarov, Petrov Mikhailov, Maltsev), he was clearly behind them in terms of: top 10 finishes, MVP voting, and Vs2.

Well, I think it speaks to the ignorance of the North American hockey media more than anything else.

1972 figures so prominently in the zeitgeist, so it's not all that surprising that Kharlamov and Tretiak, the two most formidable and noteworthy Soviet opponents in that series, are in the Hall.
 
I found it more curious that compared to other Russian greats (Makarov, Petrov Mikhailov, Maltsev), he was clearly behind them in terms of: top 10 finishes, MVP voting, and Vs2.
Would anyone actually take Petrov, Mikhailov, Maltsev, or Yakushev ahead of Kharlamov?

Makarov has slowly surpassed him in all-time rating. This is true. However, Makarov has not passed him in popularity, either here or in Russia. He probably never will. Makarov was ignored by HHOF voters until recently. Kharlamov was the second Soviet player to be inducted, after Tretiak. Last I checked, Soviet citizens don't vote for the HHOF induction. The Canadian media also rated Kharlamov ahead of these other Russian forwards.
 
Well, I think it speaks to the ignorance of the North American hockey media more than anything else.

1972 figures so prominently in the zeitgeist, so it's not all that surprising that Kharlamov and Tretiak, the two most formidable and noteworthy Soviet opponents in that series, are in the Hall.
You beat me to it. Yes, the Summit Series is remembered more than the 1987 Canada Cup. Kharlamov's performance in game 1 of that series is legendary. The Canadian defense looked lost against him.
 
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Well, I think it speaks to the ignorance of the North American hockey media more than anything else.

1972 figures so prominently in the zeitgeist, so it's not all that surprising that Kharlamov and Tretiak, the two most formidable and noteworthy Soviet opponents in that series, are in the Hall.

Would anyone actually take Petrov, Mikhailov, Maltsev, or Yakushev ahead of Kharlamov?

Makarov has slowly surpassed him in all-time rating. This is true. However, Makarov has not passed him in popularity, either here or in Russia. He probably never will. Makarov was ignored by HHOF voters until recently. Kharlamov was the second Soviet player to be inducted, after Tretiak. Last I checked, Soviet citizens don't vote for the HHOF induction. The Canadian media also rated Kharlamov ahead of these other Russian forwards.

I dont doubt hes one of the greatest, if not the greatest, but I never saw him play.

But if thats the case, why "only" three top 3 scoring finishes in his career, an four top 3 voting for MVP? Just curious if theres a reason. Was he just THAT much better in intl tournaments that his reg season doesnt matter as much?
 
I dont doubt hes one of the greatest, if not the greatest, but I never saw him play.

But if thats the case, why "only" three top 3 scoring finishes in his career, an four top 3 voting for MVP? Just curious if theres a reason. Was he just THAT much better in intl tournaments that his reg season doesnt matter as much?

I'm sure Russian posters could chime in, but a lot of the legend and tradition surrounding hockey appears to be based on international performance, success and achievements.

Anyway, I'm not really answering your question.

It does remind of the Swedish phenomenon where guys like Forsberg and Lidstrom are in Sundin's shadow in the eyes of many Swedes, while for those who follow the NHL, it's the other way around.
 
You beat me to it. Yes, the Summit Series is remembered more than the 1987 Canada Cup. Kharlamov's performance in game 1 of that series is legendary. The Canadian defense looked lost against him.
if it wasnt for 72 would he be regarded as highly, you think? Again, didnt see him play, but he was tied for 3rd in scoring for the Sovets with 7P in 7 games.
 
First off, I don't think any knowledgeable people really rate him ahead of Makarov at this point.

Second, it isn't just in NA that he's so highly regarded - he's viewed similarly in Russia.

Is he overrated? Probably in terms of his actual on-ice impact. But the reason he's canonized to the extent he is is the way he played the game, and that he was one of the most aesthetically amazing hockey players ever.

Like, Mark Recchi was probably a better all-around player than Pavel Bure. But *everyone* considers Bure to be a bigger star and more legendary player than Recchi, because of how he played the game and because of the things he did which pushed the sport forward as a whole. 50 years from now Recchi will be Bert Olmstead and mostly forgotten while Bure will still be talked about the way people talk about Orr and Richard and Kharlamov.

We all watch this sport to be entertained, and to be the most entertaining player on the planet pushing boundaries of what can be done on an ice rink isn't a small thing. It matters. You can get so caught up in statistics and spreadsheets you can't see the forest for the trees.
 
His resume doesn't match his legend. As a player though he might be generally rated correctly, it's hard to say without being able to get many looks at him. Kharlamov benefits from being viewed as a big moment player too, showing up big time for the biggest games like those at the 1972 and 1976 Olympics plus the Summit Series. I'd also guess that the Soviet league awarding secondary assists would help his point totals relative to some of his competition in that league. His 1976 accident limited his chance to age tremendously. Overall he is a very difficult player to rank, for me.
 
I wish Billy still posted here. Really thought he had a great shot of winning an ATD one day.

A lot of what he wrote was fairly popular on hfboards in 2014, but I feel a lot of it was at least partially answered in the HOH non-NHL Euros project. I'll let someone else go into the details.
 
My parents grew up in the Soviet Union and were teenagers during his prime.

I seriously doubt many (if any) league games were televised at that time throughout the nation. Hence why fans don't care about his league accomplishments. Unless you lived in Moscow, you probably never saw CSKA or Dynamo play. Meanwhile, International games against European opponents were televised. Olympics obviously. Same with the Summit Series.

If people see a player dominating against other countries, he becomes a hero and it increases his reputation. They're not going to care much about his accomplishments in a league they never watch. Or specifically how many MVP or top 10 scoring finishes he has compared to Petrov or whoever. This is the fallacy of comparing Soviet league finishes to how we'd rate players today in NHL.
 
just read this article, and it seems so....

https://thehockeywriters.com/valeri-kharlamov-the-most-overrated-player-in-history/

points out that compared to other Russian greats (Makarov, Petrov Mikhailov, Maltsev), he was clearly behind them in terms of: top 10 finishes, MVP voting, and Vs2.

MVP (Best Player) voting finishes before Kharlamov's first car crash (1976):

Kharlamov: 1, 1, 2, 2, 4, 4, 5, 5.
Maltsev: 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 8, 9, 9.
Mikhailov: 2, 5, 5, 5, 9, 10.
Petrov: 2, 4, 8, 9, 12, 13.

If not for Vladislav Tretyak who was exceptional for a Soviet goaltender, Kharlamov would have been: 1, 1, 1, 1, 4, 4, 5, 5.

if it wasnt for 72 would he be regarded as highly, you think? Again, didnt see him play, but he was tied for 3rd in scoring for the Sovets with 7P in 7 games.

His numbers were generated while he was the #1 target of the Canadian checking (Clarke, Ellis). They knew why it was him they were focusing on.

Harry Sinden: "He was our primary target. Every night it was, 'who's going to take care of that guy?' He was dynamite. He had the skill and the ability of any player in the NHL at the time. Serge Savard figures he's one of the greatest players he's ever seen, and that's good enough for me."

John Ferguson: "Kharlamov was killing us."

Bobby Clarke: "Every member of the Russian team could play in the NHL, but Kharlamov would be outstanding."

Ron Ellis: "In my NHL career, I had to shadow a number of superstars – Bobby Hull being one of them. I would certainly put Kharlamov on the same level as Hull in terms of talent and ability."

As for the domestic scoring numbers: just to repeat what has been said before quite a few times, the Soviet league didn't officially award assists for a long time and then they only awarded them stingily. Which would have hurt Kharlamov as the primary puck carrier on his line.

Beyond the statistics, appreciations of Kharlamov by coaches, opponents and sports journalists can be found in my recent Kharlamov post on the ATD board.
 
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His 1976 accident limited his chance to age tremendously as quoted from JSlater.

I read about the fatal accident in 81, horrible. I didn't see with a quick glance any reference to the 76 accident. Any details, links?

How was his play affected. This thread needs input from alko.
 
I didn't see with a quick glance any reference to the 76 accident. Any details, links?

See my other Kharlamov post from the ATD board:

He suffered a two-fold fracture of the right tibia, fractures of two ribs, a concussion and several bruises and abrasions. The doctors who treated him told him his career was over, but Kharlamov started working for a comeback as soon as he was back on his feet.

More about his comeback in the same post.
 
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I think Kharlamov is somewhat overrated by NA fans, because of obvious SS72 reasons. Tretjak somewhat as well.
 
Is he similar to Gilbert Perreault in terms of being a player who looked highly skilled and impressive but doesn't quite have the resume one might expect?
 
Would anyone actually take Petrov, Mikhailov, Maltsev, or Yakushev ahead of Kharlamov?

Well, I wouldn't. After Makarov and Fetisov, it is either Firsov or Kharlamov for me, with Mikhailov somewhat behind. It would be certainly interesting to see someone make a case for Yakushev over Kharlamov! I think I would have to sneer a bit at that, though.

Is he similar to Gilbert Perreault in terms of being a player who looked highly skilled and impressive but doesn't quite have the resume one might expect?

Even though there are some similarities, I wouldn't call Perreault 'overrated'... maybe he is overrated by me, heh heh, but hardly globally. I don't know how it is in Canada/USA, but I think your average Finnish or European hockey fan has barely even heard about Perreault.

Maybe Kharlamov was also a bit similar to Guy Lafleur; short(ish) prime but great peak? On the other hand, Lafleur had the great (domestic) resume/numbers to match his skills and reputation...

If it matters, Kharlanov passed the “eye test” for greatness

When I watch old games from 1969-76, Kharlamov certainly looks like the best Soviet skater (or at least post Firsov), and definitely better than his linemates Mikhailov and Petrov. Usually he looked and played better than Maltsev too, his only rival in terms of pure hockey skills. Much of Petrov's and Mikhailov's game back then seemed to revolve around "let's get the puck to Valeri, let him do his magic and we'll follow..." That changed a bit after 1976 and Kharlamov's accident, and Mikhailov was definitely a better player after that, maybe Petrov too. But at his peak (1972-76), I think Kharlamov was at least almost as good as the hype, and he did stand out among his peers.
 
The article of Bill Schoeninger is an interesting piece that puts forward good questions. However, it came out in 2014 and since then more information has been dug up. Numbers and award-count used in the article are dated or misused, and the writer forgot to include some other important factors about Kharlamov and his actual impact.

Question of league scoring finishes. It appears that Schoeninger only used the data from this very forum.
Kharlamov´s 1, 2, 3, 5, 5, 7 finishes exactly match what was posted here on the International & European Hockey Research and Information Thread. Problem is that the thread does not contain top 10s but only top 5s for the period of Kharlamov´s prime (1971-1976). Of course Kharlamov will then look bad next to several other players. If you use the data from eliteprospects.com, Kharlamov´s top 10 league scoring finishes are 1, 2, 3, 5, 5, 5, 7, 10, 10. Eliteprospects.com stats may be sometimes questionable but their Soviet league stats goes deep (no mere top 5s).

Kharlamov´s scoring finishes from hockeyarchives.com are 2, 2, 3, 5, 5, 5, 7. This site has only top 5s for three seasons of Kharlamov´s prime (1971, 1973, 1974), otherwise top 10s. As you can see, according to hockeyarchives.com Kharlamov loses scoring title from 1972 (to Vikulov) but he (Kharlamov) also adds one more top 5 scoring finish if you trust the hockeyarchives.com more. Additionally, if you look at the number of games, Kharlamov missed more league games than the other players which Schoeninger compares Kharlamov to. If you look at points-per-game stats, difference between Kharlamov and Maltsev/Petrov/Mikhailov/Makarov shrinks down further. I don´t know how you can jump over PPG and go straight toward more complicated and lesser known stats like Vs2.

Schoeninger writes:
"In terms of top 10 finishes in Soviet scoring, Valeri Kharlamov’s finishes are the worst. They appear to be better than Maltsev’s by a hair, but when you consider Kharlamov played on the best team in the league, CSKA (who was essentially the Soviet national team), and that Maltsev played for Dynamo with significantly worse teammates, it’s clear that Maltsev’s finishes are more impressive."

This is wrong conclusion for several reasons. First, it was more difficult to stand out for Kharlamov in CSKA precisely because the team contained other high quality players. CSKA thus gave more ice time to other players and rolled more lines and more frequently. I believe CSKA played more structured and disciplined game compared to Dinamo under the influence of A. Chernyshev who let his star players (i.e. Maltsev) to play a freer game. And although Dinamo didn´t have any other forward of Maltsev calibre, the team had arguably even better D than CSKA (Vasiliev, Pervukhin, Bilyaletdinov all played for Dinamo). Thus it was considerably easier for Maltsev to rack up points in domestic competition than Kharlamov. There are other examples (Balderis) that proves that being the great scorer on bad team was more conducive to a player´s stats-count than being a CSKA player.

Question of MVP voting. Schoeninger decides to list top 5s only and underscores Kharlamov´s record again when he lists player´s MVP voting results as follows: 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 4, 5, 5.
In reality, Kharlamov´s record is 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5 (plus 6th, 7th and 8th finishes in 1980, 1978 and 1977). Schoeninger confused 1972 (Kharlamov actually won the award along with Maltsev) and missed 1979 (Kharlamov third) due to no fault of his own - these information about 1972 and 1979 hadn´t been known back in 2014.

Question of Soviet All-Star teams. I don´t know where Schoeninger came up with this 1st and 2nd AS teams. I thought there were only official (first and no other second or third) Soviet AS teams from 1958 to 1991 (with missing or non-existing AS teams from 1960 and 1989). Am I the one who is missing something or did Schoeninger actually mixed up the AS teams and the yearly "Soviet Best Players" (top 34) lists?

Question of WHC All-Stars and Best Forward awards. Schoeninger lists 3 ASTs (1972, 1973, 1976) and zero BF awards for Kharlamov but this account does not do justice to the player. There are many contemporary evidence of Kharlamov actually receiving Best Forward award from the 1976 WHC and there is also some evidence (although minor) that Kharlamov was named into 1979 WHC all-star team. Apart from this, Kharlamov would almost certainly won both the AST and the Forward award from 1972 Olympics and he would have been a top candidate for the 1976 Olympics best LW all-star as well if the Olympic comitee allowed writers to vote the ASTs for the Olympic tournaments too. Taking these information into account, Kharlamov international accolades looks superior to both of his linemates and are not so far below that of Maltsev (if they even aren´t equal...).

Question of scoring at major international tournaments. Apparently Schoeninger lists WHC ppg rates, OG ppg rates and Summit Series´ individual points separately into 3 columns. He furthers the notion that Kharlamov did not distinguish himself from his linemates and Maltsev. Now I know numbers can differ but the stats that I have disprove Schoeninger´s assertions. For what it´s worth:

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD]V. Kharlamov[/TD][TD]123 games[/TD][TD]191 points[/TD][TD]1.55 ppg[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]B. Mikhailov[/TD][TD]120 games[/TD][TD]180 points[/TD][TD]1.50 ppg[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]V. Petrov[/TD][TD]117 games[/TD][TD]167 points[/TD][TD]1.43 ppg[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]A. Maltsev[/TD][TD]137 games[/TD][TD]193 points[/TD][TD]1.41 ppg[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]S. Makarov[/TD][TD]145 games[/TD][TD]182 points[/TD][TD]1.26 ppg[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]
These are numbers from WHCs, OGs and CCs combined. Maltsev with his 193 points actually has been, and likely will remain for the foreseeable future, the all-time international points leader but Kharlamov sits at the second place with merely 2 points behind - and with the best PPG from the elite 70s and 80s Soviets.

Question of reputation and clutch play. Kharlamov´s legend does not come only from a couple of good games at Summit Series 72 or NHL Super-series 1976 or what have you. It also didn´t come from his untimely death. One can confidently say that Kharlamov was considered to be a top 10 player in Europe since the 1969. Praise of his game did not come from the NA and Russian media only. Contemporary Czech press also vastly considered Kharlamov to be the best, the most dangerous, 1970s Soviet player.

Kharlamov also scored against North American opponents at a higher pace than Makarov, Mikhailov and Maltsev (while at roughly the same pace as Petrov). Combining all games with the NA pros, regardless of whether the games were played in Canada, USA, Moscow or on neutral sites in Europe, Kharlamov registered 129 points (55+74) in 102 games over his entire career.

The writer does have a point that Kharlamov´s visually appealing style of play might play a role in the award-votings but then you should also recognise the fact of Kharlamov usually being the primary puck carrier of his line and the originator of most of offensive actions on the ice.

To answer the OP, no, Kharlamov is not overrated. In fact, he could be underrated given that somewhat similar player of the roughly same era - Guy Lafleur - is routinely rated ahead of Kharlamov.
 
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Question of Soviet All-Star teams. I don´t know where Schoeninger came up with this 1st and 2nd AS teams. I thought there were only official (first and no other second or third) Soviet AS teams from 1958 to 1991 (with missing or non-existing AS teams from 1960 and 1989). Am I the one who is missing something or did Schoeninger actually mixed up the AS teams and the yearly "Soviet Best Players" (top 34) lists?

Presumably those are from the French hockeyarchives and I'm not quite sure where they've got them from. They don't have them for every year either.

1966
1967
1968
1969
1971
1973
 
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