Prospect Info: Vitali Kravtsov: Part IX

[SA16]

Did I say specifically the 3rd period ice time?
Was this game a tight game until the 3rd?
Wasn't it 4-1 after the 1st?

Why do you literally keep trying to find arguments against things that people did not actually say by trying to twist things?

You did not however you mentioned "much of the 3rd period is a blowout" and then listed the ice time of the kids. What does the game being a blowout in the third period have to do with ice time in the first and second period? When the game got out of hand DQ gave more ice time to Kakko/Chytil/Laf and less ice time to Panarin and Zibanejad. I am confused about what your issue is with the ice time because once the game got out of hand and he didn't need to ride the big guns to win anymore he adjusted and gave more ice time to the younger players.

 

[True Blue]

You'd prefer them to f***ing up tape-to-tape passes across all lines? What am I missing?

I see what we are back to railing against line shake ups, until.......the need to rail against not shacking lines up.

 

[bleedblue94]

You did not however you mentioned the "3rd period is a blowout" and then listed the ice time of the kids. What does the game being a blowout in the third period have to do with ice time in the first and second period? When the game got out of hand DQ gave more ice time to Kakko/Chytil/Laf and less ice time to Panarin and Zibanejad. I am confused about what your issue is with the ice time because once the game got out of hand and he didn't need to ride the big guns to win anymore he adjusted and gave more ice time to the younger players.

Here is the quote to help you:
"4 goal game last night, much of the 3rd period is a blowout" and we still have:
kk 14 mins
laf 14 mins
chytil 14 mins
krav 11 mins

As I said in the last post, it is 4-1 in the first period. You're telling me we can't trust these kids with more ice time as the spread evolves and pace them to land 3-4 more minutes of ice time overall (beyond their game averages) in a game that is being dominated early? And like I said earlier, this is also the kind of game you can ease VK into shifts with better players but he waits until 3 mins left in the game to give him one shift with strome and panarin for a whopping total of 11 mins of ice time? This is the exact kind of game that you try to give them all more ice, 4-1 after the first, 5-1 midway through the game, feed the kids some ice time, not minimal increases of an extra 2-3 shifts. If you want to shelter them a little in normal games and rely on your horses than I get it, but take greater advantage of opportunities to give these kids more ice when you can.

BTW, Rooney and Blackwell are the guys that most benefitted from the freed up ice time in the 3rd from the big guys getting a break: ShiftChart - Hockey Shift Data Visualization

As for the kids, time on ice by period last night:
KK
1st 4:49
2nd 4:20
3rd 5:34
2nd+3rd period mean per 20: 4:57 (8 seconds more per period than 1st)
projected ice per 60 based on above number: 14:51
actual total ice time: 14:43
difference from actual vs projected ice per 60 based on actual 2nd + 3rd TOI: 8 seconds

Laf
1st 4:36
2nd 4:34
3rd 5:24
2nd+3rd period mean per 20: 4:59 (23 second more per period than 1st)
projected ice per 60 based on above number: 14:57
actual total ice time: 14:52
difference from actual vs projected ice per 60 based on actual 2nd + 3rd TOI: 5 seconds

VK
1st 3:49
2nd 3:17
3rd 3:57
2nd+3rd period mean per 20: 3:37 (actually 12 seconds less than he got in the first!!!)
projected ice per 60 based on above number: 10:51
actual total ice time: 11:03
difference from actual vs projected ice per 60 based on actual 2nd + 3rd TOI: minus 12 seconds

Chytil
1st 4:48
2nd 4:06
3rd 5:52
2nd+3rd period mean per 20: 4:59 (11 seconds more per period than 1st)
projected ice per 60 based on above number: 14:57
actual total ice time: 14:46
difference from actual vs projected ice per 60 based on actual 2nd + 3rd TOI: 11 seconds

The above numbers are embarrassing if you are looking to take advantage of blowout games to get these kids more ice time. 4-1 after the first and 5-1 midway through the game to me is a blowout and an opportunity to get these kids more ice. Most of the extra ice time you see from the 3rd probably came from the shift where they got pinned in their zone and chytil icing the puck before the penguins goal. You literally cant argue that they got more ice time unless you are just comparing the 2nd and 3rd times (which is a joke bc their ice time when down in the 2nd compared to the 1st with a 3 and 4 goal lead) OR you believe that a TOTAL OF 12 SECONDS more projected ice time for 4 players makes a point, otherwise you literally have no argument against the factual numbers and breakdowns I presented here...

 

[CupSeeker]

Pairing three rookies with zero confidence together is a recipe for disaster. It doesn’t help us win or help them develop. Literally an 8 year old could watch this team and determine that.

This is a massive chicken-or-the-egg discussion. Our rookie forwards don’t just suck more than the rest of the league. They’re playing like crap because they’ve got no confidence and haven’t been given a chance to lift themselves back up. Especially when none of our forward lines particularly “work”. The only two players you can argue have any chemistry are Strome and Panarin.

You don’t stuff a bunch of chickens in the same coop, let them fester in their own shit, and then call it organic.

They have not performed well but at least they don't have Panarin or Zib to defer to. If they stay together, the play will improve

 

[ColonialsHockey10]

They have not performed well but at least they don't have Panarin or Zib to defer to. If they stay together, the play will improve

That situation sounds sooo much better than the current one of being pinned in their zone the entire shift, chasing the puck and further losing confidence. Again, they’re just festering - at some point beating yourself over the head isn’t ever going to get the point across.

Outside of the goal shift and a few nice breaks when the game opened up at the end, the kid line was an atrocity last night. One of their worst performances yet.

I’d understand the situation if we had a dominant top 6 that brought it every night. But we don’t - outside of Strome, Panarin and arguably Buch, our forwards have been nightmarishly inconsistent.

 

[kovazub94]

You said "Kakko has been on the 2nd line almost the whole season," now it is with Strome or Chytil. Make up your mind.

Look, you've taken my original comment and the basic point of the post and you keep trying to twist it to make an argument. I've said repeatedly my issue is that he hasn't put the elite skill high end kids we have into consistent/significant roles. You keep trying to twist that into an argument against things other people have said and are trying to lump my comment in with the comment of others. If I shared those overarching, sometimes extreme viewpoints and general distain for Quinn I would just like their comments or piggyback off of them. I'm not doing that so please stop lumping me in with others. This isn't an all love for Quinn or all hate for Quinn, I can appreciate parts of him and still have issues with how he deploys these kids.

4 goal game last night, much of the 3rd period is a blowout and we still have:
kk 14 mins
laf 14 mins
chytil 14 mins
krav 11 mins

And it took until 3 mins left in a 4 goal game to get kravtsov out there with some skill players. It is not irrational to have some issues with this, and I can say I have issues with this and NOT be calling for Quinn to be canned. There is a rational middle ground...

Whether it's Strome or Chytil's line - either way Kakko has been put in a significant role this whole season regardless, so it's you who's trying to twist arguments to the contrary (just because you can't accept that Kakko hasn't produced a lot of points).
When Kakko's going he gets minutes and when he's not - his minutes are being cut. There's no EXACT success formula that requires that player on line X has to get exact Y amount of ice time. You could think differently but development of our prospects shows that his approach work and so I continue to accept & support how Quinn allocates minutes.

 

[haveandare]

I noticed one really, really rough shift for VK last night where he gave the puck away a few times in succession but otherwise he looks pretty good to start. Hard to get him toi with the roster as it is though. Something has to give next year but I’m not sure what that’s going to look like

 

[True Blue]

I noticed one really, really rough shift for VK last night where he gave the puck away a few times in succession but otherwise he looks pretty good to start. Hard to get him toi with the roster as it is though. Something has to give next year but I’m not sure what that’s going to look like

Think that even if no trade occurs, he will get a larger role by at a minimum being on the third line.

The kid has not really seemed out of place at all.

 

[bleedblue94]

Whether it's Strome or Chytil's line - either way Kakko has been put in a significant role this whole season regardless, so it's you who's trying to twist arguments to the contrary (just because you can't accept that Kakko hasn't produced a lot of points).
When Kakko's going he gets minutes and when he's not - his minutes are being cut. There's no EXACT success formula that requires that player on line X has to get exact Y amount of ice time. You could think differently but development of our prospects shows that his approach work and so I continue to accept & support how Quinn allocates minutes.

14 mins a game with limited pp time (refer to the Brooks article for a further breakdown on that time) is not a significant role, you are talking 1-2 mins more at most than most of our 4th line players.

I have no issue with KK point production, NONE, I haven't brought it up once (the only thing I've said is I want him to shoot more) so dont bring it up and say I have an issue with production because you are again reaching for something to argue about.

 

[E-Train]

The kid has not really seemed out of place at all.

Was going to post the same.

He’ll also fill into that big frame in the next few years. Krav, Laf & Kakko are going to be too much to handle. Especially with the superstar we have on the back end now.

 

[Harbour Dog]

Not to beat on this dead horse again, but Kravtsov really looks like playing centre is well within the realm of possibility for him.

Looking at him and Chytil in a vacuum, and being told that one of them was a centre and one was a wing; I think the vast majority of hockey fans would guess that Kravtsov was the centre.

 

[bleedblue94]

Was going to post the same.

He’ll also fill into that big frame in the next few years. Krav, Laf & Kakko are going to be too much to handle. Especially with the superstar we have on the back end now.

Right now you can see he doesn't really know how to consistently use his frame to his benefit on forechecks, he often tries to play them as if he is panarin's size. That will come with time adjusting the the NA game. This kid has a lot of the tools you want and the other thing is he does not seem nervous to try to make a play right now. The game is faster but he isn't panicking and for the most part isn't forcing anything which is great to see. A few times he has had a decision to make of trying to thread the needle for a high risk cross ice O zone play or just making the smart cycle dump and he has made the smart play and changed smartly to avoid those extended shifts that cause issues for young players.

 

[kovazub94]

14 mins a game with limited pp time (refer to the Brooks article for a further breakdown on that time) is not a significant role, you are talking 1-2 mins more at most than most of our 4th line players.

I have no issue with KK point production, NONE, I haven't brought it up once (the only thing I've said is I want him to shoot more) so dont bring it up and say I have an issue with production because you are again reaching for something to argue about.

Whether 14 min is significant or not is not an objective criteria. IMO 14 ES min in the NHL is significant for under-21 year-olds and especially 19 year old rookie.

 

[kovazub94]

Whatever he learned last season in the AHL and this year under Gatiyatulin in the K made Kravtsov a much improved player defensively. Happy that what I've watched and reported when he was playing with Traktor translated so far.

 

[NYR94]

I like the way he skates for a guy his size.

 

[kovazub94]

Not to beat on this dead horse again, but Kravtsov really looks like playing centre is well within the realm of possibility for him.

Looking at him and Chytil in a vacuum, and being told that one of them was a centre and one was a wing; I think the vast majority of hockey fans would guess that Kravtsov was the centre.

Respectfully disagree.

I think Chytil is much better than Kravtsov as puck carrier via neutral zone (or out of defensive zone into offensive). Also while Kravtsov deservingly gets credit for his improved defensive game - his responsibilities as a winger are a lot more limited than if he were to play C (essentially 3rd D) all over defensive zone.

 

[CupSeeker]

That situation sounds sooo much better than the current one of being pinned in their zone the entire shift, chasing the puck and further losing confidence. Again, they’re just festering - at some point beating yourself over the head isn’t ever going to get the point across.

Outside of the goal shift and a few nice breaks when the game opened up at the end, the kid line was an atrocity last night. One of their worst performances yet.

I’d understand the situation if we had a dominant top 6 that brought it every night. But we don’t - outside of Strome, Panarin and arguably Buch, our forwards have been nightmarishly inconsistent.

as others have said, they are often paired with Smith/Hajek and that doesn't help in terms of clearing the zone. Either way, I think they will play the right away and take some chances if they are not always 3rd man high because Panarin or Zib are driving the offense. They will learn how to defend and when they do get the puck in the O zone they will do what comes naturally instead of just giving up the puck and protecting against an odd man rush the other way.

 

[cwede]

Moneypuck says 32% chance they make playoffs
NHL Playoff Odds -MoneyPuck 2021 Playoff & Cup Odds

Moneypuck at 28% today (effect of Bruins win?)

these guys have NYR at 19%
National Hockey League Playoff Chances - Sports Club Stats

 

[bleedblue94]

Whether 14 min is significant or not is not an objective criteria. IMO 14 ES min in the NHL is significant for under-21 year-olds and especially 19 year old rookie.

I am going to assume that since you didn't try to bring up point production again that is your way of admitting you were wrong to suggest I did in the first place?

Seems to be the norm from you right now: to make accusations, be rebuffed, and ignore that you did it or was wrong in the first place.

So I will just move on to your latest, Kakko is averaging less ice time per game than the likes of:
andrew shaw, isac lundestrom, teddy blueger, sam steel, brock mcginn, chris tierney, zach sanford, evan rodriguez ranking 214th overall in the league for forwards. I dont think 3rd line mins (214/31 teams = 6.87) with limited/inconsistent pp time is a significant role, if you do that is your opinion and your are entitled to it, but if you reference my above post regarding ice time even from last night's game I would like to see him get more. His play recently has justified more of a role than what he is seeing, and if that isn't going to translate into more pp time, than it could/should manifest itself in more 5v5 time within the top 6.

 

[Harbour Dog]

Respectfully disagree.

I think Chytil is much better than Kravtsov as puck carrier via neutral zone (or out of defensive zone into offensive). Also while Kravtsov deservingly gets credit for his improved defensive game - his responsibilities as a winger are a lot more limited than if he were to play C (essentially 3rd D) all over defensive zone.

I do think that Chytil carries the puck better, but he doesn't make great decisions with it. I suspect that by season's end, Kravtsov's decision-making and puck distribution are going to be on a different level than Chytil's. Though admittedly at the moment, they aren't.

When I see how Chytil dictates rushes and his propensity for attacking multiple defenders with speed and stick-handling, I see a kid who is going to be part of high danger scoring chances in both directions. If that's the player he is going to be, that's fine, he has the skills for it. As a wing though, he would have much more freedom to attack in the o-zone without bringing the same potential for liability when his attempts fail.

Kravtsov, on the other hand, looks to want to play a more up-tempo controlled game. Until he gets more minutes under his belt, you can't say for sure, but he makes safer, smarter decisions; has proven to have great vision and creativity at other levels; and I would say is already as strong in the d-zone as Chytil. Though your point about his limited responsibilities stands.

I have no complaints about Chytil as a centre right now; I'm glad we haven't jerked him around this year. And he is certainly the better player of the two at the moment. But looking at Kravtsov's game, it just feels like he wants to be controlling the pace and to be impactful in both zones and on the forecheck and the backcheck. And looking at Chytil's, I can't help but wonder how he would be affected by removing a portion of the defensive shackles, and letting him focus more on offense.

Ideally they're both centres. The only reason I compare the two now is that we are probably a couple years from another centre spot opening up.

 

[kovazub94]

I am going to assume that since you didn't try to bring up point production again that is your way of admitting you were wrong to suggest I did in the first place?

Seems to be the norm from you right now: to make accusations, be rebuffed, and ignore that you did it or was wrong in the first place.

So I will just move on to your latest, Kakko is averaging less ice time per game than the likes of:
andrew shaw, isac lundestrom, teddy blueger, sam steel, brock mcginn, chris tierney, zach sanford, evan rodriguez ranking 214th overall in the league for forwards. I dont think 3rd line mins (214/31 teams = 6.87) with limited/inconsistent pp time is a significant role, if you do that is your opinion and your are entitled to it, but if you reference my above post regarding ice time even from last night's game I would like to see him get more. His play recently has justified more of a role than what he is seeing, and if that isn't going to translate into more pp time, than it could/should manifest itself in more 5v5 time within the top 6.

So sorry, I fully admit that when you brought up the lack of a "significant" role (which I disagree with) - it was in the context of not being able to produce points (which is the case for a lot of posters who start with the same premise as you are - not enough minutes). Do you accept my apology?

Other other hand you completely ignored MY point that Quinn's prospects development does work including how much Kakko himself improved from his rookie year, and that your complaining about lack of significant role is... just for the sake of complaining.

There's nothing else to discuss - IMO spending more the half of his ice time on the second line and the remainder on the 3rd line constitute a significant role for a 20 year-old sophomore who previously struggled in his rookie year. His ice time fluctuation on a game by game basis is also head coaches' prerogative.

 

[kovazub94]

Kravtsov is getting screwed out of thread Part X. What's that about?

 

[bleedblue94]

So sorry, I fully admit that when you brought up the lack of a "significant" role (which I disagree with) - it was in the context of not being able to produce points (which is the case for a lot of posters who start with the same premise as you are - not enough minutes). Do you accept my apology?

Other other hand you completely ignored MY point that Quinn's prospects development does work including how much Kakko himself improved from his rookie year, and that your complaining about lack of significant role is... just for the sake of complaining.

There's nothing else to discuss - IMO spending more the half of his ice time on the second line and the remainder on the 3rd line constitute a significant role for a 20 year-old sophomore who previously struggled in his rookie year. His ice time fluctuation on a game by game basis is also head coaches' prerogative.

I've posted enough info and you've thrown enough shit at the wall. Usage is the coach's prerogative and it is everyone else's prerogative to agree or disagree with it, just as you and I can agree to disagree and move on...

 

[kovazub94]

I've posted enough info and you've thrown enough shit at the wall. Usage is the coach's prerogative and it is everyone else's prerogative to agree or disagree with it, just as you and I can agree to disagree and move on...

Lol, at least I acknowledged it when you pointed out I didn't address something.

 

[True Blue]

Whatever he learned last season in the AHL and this year under Gatiyatulin in the K made Kravtsov a much improved player defensively. Happy that what I've watched and reported when he was playing with Traktor translated so far.

Of course now he is hopelessly ruined as all of his offensive instincts have been stifled by learning to play a two way game. Should have just let the kid do whatever made him comfortable.