Confirmed Trade: [VGK/ANA] Shea Theodore for the selection of Clayton Stoner

[Sojourn]

Vatanen was a "diamond in the rough", whereas Theo was always projected to be a top 4 D. Their development cant be compared one-to-one.

Right now, I'd say Theo has been downgraded from "likely top 4", to "let's see if he becomes an NHL regular". Again, I could be totally wrong, we shall see.

I think that's a bit unfair to Theodore. I actually think Theodore, even if he can't figure it all out, can be a Justin Schultz type of player, but with better breakout ability(and less points because, well, Crosby). He isn't that guy yet, but that is very much in the realm of possibility.

If he can toughen up a bit, and improve his defensive game, I see a top 4 guy who specializes in the offensive side of the game.

 

[nbducksfan19]

I can honestly say that my suggestion was scoffed at as if I was a hater, and I said it would be that Stoner goes as the cap dump, and they give up a 1st and 3rd, which is about right. I also figured maybe they offer Montour instead of all that, but I guess that was off, but not by a lot.

Still, the ones furthest off were the Duck fans saying that all it would take is a 2nd and a middling prospect. Or maybe the obvious haters saying that McPhee would just go back on his word and nab Manson (ridiculous)

But in the end it doesn't matter. The Ducks came off of this just fine. They were one of the most vulnerable teams and their competitiveness was not damaged. There were teams out there that lost key players in the regular roster, like Methot, W.Karlsson, Haula, Schmidt... And the Ducks got to dump off a contract in Stoner. (not that Stoner is really all that bad really)

The concencus from ducks fans was the trade would be something like a 2nd plus a B prospect (welinski, kerdiles, welinski) instead it was an A prospect, a cap dump (stoner) and a B prospect (got to keep kerdiles, etc.). The value is very similar. We were called delusional and that we were losing manson or the value of him (and vatanen somehow?). Concensus from oilers fans were a trade would looks like Theo and 2 1sts or steel and a 1st...

 

[nbducksfan19]

Honestly, should have just taken Manson or Vatanen.
Manson you could control for the next 5+ years anyway...

Although, if Theodore pans out, this'll be good for Vegas. Two of those trades tonight had me going 'but... why?'

IF you picked up Manson or Vatanen and Dumba... There would be teams out there more than willing to pay for their services; especially if you're looking for picks.

I think this whole expansion draft went right over your head.

 

[Backpack]

I think that's a bit unfair to Theodore. I actually think Theodore, even if he can't figure it all out, can be a Justin Schultz type of player, but with better breakout ability(and less points because, well, Crosby). He isn't that guy yet, but that is very much in the realm of possibility.

If he can toughen up a bit, and improve his defensive game, I see a top 4 guy who specializes in the offensive side of the game.

On a team like Vegas, he's a top 4 guy right now. So I guess its all relative in the end

On the Ducks, there would be no way he could crack the top 4 in the foreseeable future. No way.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

No need for some ducks fans to trash Theo. He's only 21 and has a ton of natural ability his playoff was up and down but again he's really young still.

Just because he had some struggles does not mean he will in 2 years

 

[State of Hockey]

On this planet, where teams are trying to win hockey games. If you're taking Theodore over Manson, you're very much the minority. For Vegas, it makes sense because they are a new team and they need to start stocking young prospect talent. For the rest of the teams, Manson is an easy choice over Theodore.

Manson doesn't need high end offensive skills. His role is defense. Anaheim has Montour, Lindholm, Vatanen(maybe), and Fowler for offense from the blue line. Vatanen had a tough season. It isn't a decline until he can't show that he can bounce back.

You've contradicted yourself, and now you've validated my take as correct.

What you're saying is that if you want to win now, pick Manson. But if you're building beyond that, as Vegas is, take Theodore. So teams on this planet trying to win hockey games also might be best to take Theodore.

 

[nbducksfan19]

This was the best player addition LV made tonight IMO, the guy is a stud. 21 and NHL ready with lots of room to grow, could be as good as Pietrangelo down the road.

Anaheim is fortunate to be so rich on the blue line. I could see them hating this decision down the road especially if they move Vatanen and the return doesn't work out so well.

Not saying he can't be great, but Pietrangelo was fantastic in that he rarely made defensive blunders and always made smart plays with the puck -that is not Theo at all. But I still think Theo can be very good.

 

[Sojourn]

The concencus from ducks fans was the trade would be something like a 2nd plus a B prospect (welinski, kerdiles, welinski) instead it was an A prospect, a cap dump (stoner) and a B prospect (got to keep kerdiles, etc.). The value is very similar. We were called delusional and that we were losing manson or the value of him (and vatanen somehow?). Concensus from oilers fans were a trade would looks like Theo and 2 1sts or steel and a 1st...

It makes me wonder which side was pushing for what. Did McPhee want Theodore, and Murray said he needed to take a cap dump? Or did Murray want to involve Stoner, and McPhee said the cost would go up?

Either way, I'm pretty happy. Without the expectation of a cap dump, I was thinking Vegas would get a pretty good prospect, but not someone quite at the level of Theodore. Add in a cap dump, and that understandably bumps the cost up.

Some people had some outrageous expectations for what Anaheim would give up. Theodore/Larsson/Steel and a 1st. Theodore and Larsson/Steel and a 1st. Basically packages that matched, or exceeded the value or Vatanen or Manson. Ridiculous. Or, worse, McPhee screwing Murray over and taking one of Manson or Vatanen anyway. I hope some people learned lessons over this.

 

[Backpack]

No need for some ducks fans to trash Theo. He's only 21 and has a ton of natural ability his playoff was up and down but again he's really young still.

Just because he had some struggles does not mean he will in 2 years

I don't think anyone's "trashing him". Everyone is acknowledging that he's young and will improve. But, we can only evaluate a player based on his current level of play.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Manson over Theodore? Excuse me? On what planet is that a better idea. Manson single-handedly was trying to lose his team games during the playoffs. He's four years older. He doesn't have nearly the pedigree as Theodore. He doesn't have high offensive skills. It's a no-brainer to take Theodore over Manson. Vatanen is a closer call (and probably was agreed not to happen), but again I can see taking the chance on Theodore. Vatanen has declined and can't stay healthy (one leads to the other).

Skip and Stephen have taught you well.

 

[dracom]

You've contradicted yourself, and now you've validated my take as correct.

What you're saying is that if you want to win now, pick Manson. But if you're building beyond that, as Vegas is, take Theodore. So teams on this planet trying to win hockey games also might be best to take Theodore.

Are you just being dense on purpose? If you're a team who needs to win now, like the Ducks for example, you take the defensively solid player who helps elevate your two best defenseman's game; over the prospect D who has very bad defensive skills right now.

Since Vegas isn't looking to win right now, they can risk taking the time for Theo to develop; something we couldn't do if we were going to lose Manson.

 

[Godzlaf]

Manson over Theodore? Excuse me? On what planet is that a better idea. Manson single-handedly was trying to lose his team games during the playoffs. He's four years older. He doesn't have nearly the pedigree as Theodore. He doesn't have high offensive skills. It's a no-brainer to take Theodore over Manson. Vatanen is a closer call (and probably was agreed not to happen), but again I can see taking the chance on Theodore. Vatanen has declined and can't stay healthy (one leads to the other).

 

[State of Hockey]

Are you just being dense on purpose? If you're a team who needs to win now, like the Ducks for example, you take the defensively solid player who helps elevate your two best defenseman's game; over the prospect D who has very bad defensive skills right now.

Since Vegas isn't looking to win right now, they can risk taking the time for Theo to develop; something we couldn't do if we were going to lose Manson.

I'm wondering the same thing.

Read the posts. People are criticizing the Knights for picking Theodore over Manson and Vatanen. This has absolutely nothing to do with what the Ducks would pick. They're not the ones picking!

 

[Sojourn]

You've contradicted yourself, and now you've validated my take as correct.

What you're saying is that if you want to win now, pick Manson. But if you're building beyond that, as Vegas is, take Theodore. So teams on this planet trying to win hockey games also might be best to take Theodore.

No, I didn't contradict myself. It takes a very good prospect to be a top 4 quality defenseman. It takes a very good prospect to be a top 6 quality forward. Theodore would need to be a very good prospect to have top 4 potential, and he does have that potential. It remains to be seen if he reaches it. Manson is already a top 4 defenseman, and a pretty good one.

I said exactly what I wanted to say. If you need to squint real hard and try to put words into my mouth to find a way to manipulate what I said into agreeing with you, I guess that's your choice, but it isn't what I said. Manson is better. Theodore might surpass him one day. I'm not sure I'd take that bet. More likely, I think Theodore might be an equivalent level player, but as an offensive talent, while Manson is always the better of the two defensively. I don't think Theodore will ever be a Fowler, or Lindholm caliber defenseman. My (realistic) ceiling for him, based on what I've seen, is a top 4 defenseman who isn't leaned on defensively, and who does most of his work in the offensive zone.

 

[Sojourn]

On a team like Vegas, he's a top 4 guy right now. So I guess its all relative in the end

On the Ducks, there would be no way he could crack the top 4 in the foreseeable future. No way.

That's fair. When I say it, I mean a legitimate one, not a forced one.

You're right. There is no way he realistically cracks Anaheim's top 4 anytime soon. Even if Vatanen is traded. There are too many defensemen for him to jump past, and let's be honest, they are all better than him. Even Bieksa, as frustrating as he can be, belongs in the top 4 ahead of Theodore.

One day, maybe, but based on what I've seen so far, I think he has a ways to go. He's a talented kid, but he has a lot of work to do. The good news, for him and Las Vegas, is I don't think his talent level is a bottleneck. He has top 4 talent. He just has to put it all together on the ice in the right way, get stronger, and more experienced. I think he can do it. Growing some balls wouldn't hurt either. He plays too frightened.

 

[liquiduck]

It makes me wonder which side was pushing for what. Did McPhee want Theodore, and Murray said he needed to take a cap dump? Or did Murray want to involve Stoner, and McPhee said the cost would go up?

Either way, I'm pretty happy. Without the expectation of a cap dump, I was thinking Vegas would get a pretty good prospect, but not someone quite at the level of Theodore. Add in a cap dump, and that understandably bumps the cost up.

Some people had some outrageous expectations for what Anaheim would give up. Theodore/Larsson/Steel and a 1st. Theodore and Larsson/Steel and a 1st. Basically packages that matched, or exceeded the value or Vatanen or Manson. Ridiculous. Or, worse, McPhee screwing Murray over and taking one of Manson or Vatanen anyway. I hope some people learned lessons over this.

I wouldn't get your hopes up.

 

[Sojourn]

I wouldn't get your hopes up.

I'm naively optimistic.

 

[biotk]

Theodore was playing in the post-season due to injuries.

Who cares? I responding to someone who said that he was playing in the minors instead this playoff. You ignored that claim completely, while making sure you go into the details of why Theodore shouldn't have been in the playoffs. I could care less.

He's a very good prospect. He isn't an amazing one. I wouldn't call Steel or Larsson amazing prospects either. An amazing prospect is blue chip, and a blue chip prospect is basically an elite, can't miss type. Theodore is not that caliber.

Oh SOB. I had no idea that there was an official set of terms and that I had violated the set of terms that had been decided by those on high. I am so sorry. I am completely devastated that you had to read someone using a different term then the one you decided should be used for this prospect. Send me the set of terms to be used for different players so I never screw up this bad again.

As for the comparison between Vatanen and Theodore, Vatanen was in the Finnish Elite League. That's why he was a bit older before he finally made it into the NHL.

Again, SFW?

 

[navyduck]

Even Bieksa, as frustrating as he can be, belongs in the top 4 ahead of Theodore.

How much did that put a sour taste in your mouth?

That hurt just reading it

 

[Sojourn]

How much did that put a sour taste in your mouth?

That hurt just reading it

There isn't enough mouth wash in the world.

 

[Sojourn]

Who cares? I responding to someone who said that he was playing in the minors instead this playoff. You ignored that claim completely, while making sure you go into the details of why Theodore shouldn't have been in the playoffs. I could care less.

I think you mean you couldn't care less. It's an important difference. Like, say, the difference between a good prospect and an amazing one.

As for the rest, it makes a difference whether a player has earned his way onto a healthy roster, and if he's playing because the team is going through their second string players.

Oh SOB. I had no idea that there was an official set of terms and that I had violated the set of terms that had been decided by those on high. I am so sorry. I am completely devastated that you had to read someone using a different term then the one you decided should be used for this prospect. Send me the set of terms to be used for different players so I never screw up this bad again.

If you're going to have temper tantrum every time someone disagrees with you, maybe you shouldn't be calling a prospect "amazing" so casually. That has strong connotations. I suspect you knew that, and that's why you said it.

Again, SFW?

For as much emphasis as you put on Theodore's age, I would think it would matter to you. You realize this is a message board, right? Discussion is encouraged. You say something, I say something, and so on. This was your turn to say something. It's unfortunate that you wasted your time to type all that out, without actually saying anything.

 

[liquiduck]

I'm naively optimistic.

If you took a gander at the Oilers own draft thread, you wouldn't be.

 

[nbducksfan19]

I'm wondering the same thing.

Read the posts. People are criticizing the Knights for picking Theodore over Manson and Vatanen. This has absolutely nothing to do with what the Ducks would pick. They're not the ones picking!

It appears the whole expansion draft went over your head..

 

[tomd]

On a team like Vegas, he's a top 4 guy right now. So I guess its all relative in the end

On the Ducks, there would be no way he could crack the top 4 in the foreseeable future. No way.

Look at LV defensemen and take out Methot, Colin Miller, and TVR (assuming they all get flipped). Theodore still doesn't make that team. Unless he wows everyone in training camp he'll start the year in the AHL.

 

[Unholy]

I'm wondering the same thing.

Read the posts. People are criticizing the Knights for picking Theodore over Manson and Vatanen. This has absolutely nothing to do with what the Ducks would pick. They're not the ones picking!

Vegas wasn't going to get either.